another side of the coin....
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Originally Posted by thomas11 
I firmly believe that there is a lot more chaos that takes place behind closed doors than we generally realize. Many MANY people and families have issues, but those issues are swept under the rug, and kept secret, so they can present their lives as picture perfect, when it is in fact an utter disaster. I also believe that if we thought about it for 30 seconds, every single member of this website could think of someone they know that fits that description.
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Originally Posted by FreeOwl
To your first comment - that's not at all my point.
To your second comment - No. It's not. 90% of the reason you drink is that you're addicted to alcohol. And 90% of the reason you project that onto your staff might be the fact that it's such a shameful thing to simply admit we are addicts, in this culture of shame.
To your second comment - No. It's not. 90% of the reason you drink is that you're addicted to alcohol. And 90% of the reason you project that onto your staff might be the fact that it's such a shameful thing to simply admit we are addicts, in this culture of shame.
And there is a direct correlation between my drinking and my business, when I'm on vacation or business is slower than usual, I don't drink, nor crave it.
I'm a binge drinker, and the times when I binge are during high levels of stress.
Causation or correlation, chicken and egg, who knows, but it's very apparent I drink over work more than any other trigger.
And nobody needs to be ashamed to talk to me about alcoholism, but I'm not going to deal with their bs daily at work just because they're and alcoholic, it's not a get out of jail free card.
My nephew has brain damage and comes to help out at work, he manages to get there and do his assigned duties with no problem.
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Those are good thoughts, Anna.
I'm not here to argue that we should actively promote recovery at our workplace.
The point of the original post was simply to celebrate that there ARE business leaders who ARE in recovery. There ARE people out there who understand and will help. There ARE employer programs in place to help people who are struggling get help to be successful, productive people and improve their lives without losing their jobs or having to do it all in secret.
I think too often, people don't seek help in part because they can't figure out how to get away with getting help without losing their job. They fear saying a word - to HR or to anyone else. And I think it is valuable to show that it's not always the case that we need to obsessively guard ourselves against potential consequences - be it with our employer or our family.
The thread morphed a bit... and I do believe that another point here is that employers, politicians, companies in general and individuals (who after all make up companies and organizations) continue to cultivate this culture of shame. There is no reason that the workplace shouldn't be a part of the dialogue to change that.
After all - 'the workplace' is the place where many addicts spend a lot of their lives. 'the workplace' is the place where many of the pressures exist which exacerbate addiction. In fact it could be argued that in many ways, 'the workplace' is a machine that profits from a certain level of chemical dependence. People who are stressed out from work and life turn to chemicals for relief.... then they turn to work to get money to fund their chemicals....... this is nothing new.
I'm not here to argue that we should actively promote recovery at our workplace.
The point of the original post was simply to celebrate that there ARE business leaders who ARE in recovery. There ARE people out there who understand and will help. There ARE employer programs in place to help people who are struggling get help to be successful, productive people and improve their lives without losing their jobs or having to do it all in secret.
I think too often, people don't seek help in part because they can't figure out how to get away with getting help without losing their job. They fear saying a word - to HR or to anyone else. And I think it is valuable to show that it's not always the case that we need to obsessively guard ourselves against potential consequences - be it with our employer or our family.
The thread morphed a bit... and I do believe that another point here is that employers, politicians, companies in general and individuals (who after all make up companies and organizations) continue to cultivate this culture of shame. There is no reason that the workplace shouldn't be a part of the dialogue to change that.
After all - 'the workplace' is the place where many addicts spend a lot of their lives. 'the workplace' is the place where many of the pressures exist which exacerbate addiction. In fact it could be argued that in many ways, 'the workplace' is a machine that profits from a certain level of chemical dependence. People who are stressed out from work and life turn to chemicals for relief.... then they turn to work to get money to fund their chemicals....... this is nothing new.
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Originally Posted by FreeOwl
Those are good thoughts, Anna.
I'm not here to argue that we should actively promote recovery at our workplace.
The point of the original post was simply to celebrate that there ARE business leaders who ARE in recovery. There ARE people out there who understand and will help. There ARE employer programs in place to help people who are struggling get help to be successful, productive people and improve their lives without losing their jobs or having to do it all in secret.
I think too often, people don't seek help in part because they can't figure out how to get away with getting help without losing their job. They fear saying a word - to HR or to anyone else. And I think it is valuable to show that it's not always the case that we need to obsessively guard ourselves against potential consequences - be it with our employer or our family.
The thread morphed a bit... and I do believe that another point here is that employers, politicians, companies in general and individuals (who after all make up companies and organizations) continue to cultivate this culture of shame. There is no reason that the workplace shouldn't be a part of the dialogue to change that.
After all - 'the workplace' is the place where many addicts spend a lot of their lives. 'the workplace' is the place where many of the pressures exist which exacerbate addiction. In fact it could be argued that in many ways, 'the workplace' is a machine that profits from a certain level of chemical dependence. People who are stressed out from work and life turn to chemicals for relief.... then they turn to work to get money to fund their chemicals....... this is nothing new.
I'm not here to argue that we should actively promote recovery at our workplace.
The point of the original post was simply to celebrate that there ARE business leaders who ARE in recovery. There ARE people out there who understand and will help. There ARE employer programs in place to help people who are struggling get help to be successful, productive people and improve their lives without losing their jobs or having to do it all in secret.
I think too often, people don't seek help in part because they can't figure out how to get away with getting help without losing their job. They fear saying a word - to HR or to anyone else. And I think it is valuable to show that it's not always the case that we need to obsessively guard ourselves against potential consequences - be it with our employer or our family.
The thread morphed a bit... and I do believe that another point here is that employers, politicians, companies in general and individuals (who after all make up companies and organizations) continue to cultivate this culture of shame. There is no reason that the workplace shouldn't be a part of the dialogue to change that.
After all - 'the workplace' is the place where many addicts spend a lot of their lives. 'the workplace' is the place where many of the pressures exist which exacerbate addiction. In fact it could be argued that in many ways, 'the workplace' is a machine that profits from a certain level of chemical dependence. People who are stressed out from work and life turn to chemicals for relief.... then they turn to work to get money to fund their chemicals....... this is nothing new.
My whole career will mostly revolve around crime and shame, child and human trafficking, sexual assualt, murder etc.
I have no problem with topics related to shame, I do have a problem with cleaning up others people's mess at work however.
I really like you and your posts, I hope this difference of opinion doesn't create bad blood between us in the future and on other topics.
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Originally Posted by Jsbodhi
And nobody needs to be ashamed to talk to me about alcoholism, but I'm not going to deal with their bs daily at work just because they're and alcoholic, it's not a get out of jail free card.
"I am struggling with addiction and I don't want it to consume me anymore or impact my job. I want to get well, and I need to go to rehab.... I'm here to ask your support for my position when I return. I know it won't be an excuse and if you give me this shot, I won't ask you for another if I blow it.... but I'm not going to blow it. Will you help me?"
Or how about - like the execs that came to my friend - you see one of your employees struggling, you learn that he / she is in detox one day... would you reach out and help? Would you BRING them that one chance? Would you BE the person who might be the person that helped them finally turn their lives around?
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Originally Posted by Jsbodhi
But you just told me that I drink because I'm addicted to alcohol and I'm projecting that onto my business and staff, yet here you say it exacerbates it and is the reason many people drink.
My whole career will mostly revolve around crime and shame, child and human trafficking, sexual assualt, murder etc.
I have no problem with topics related to shame, I do have a problem with cleaning up others people's mess at work however.
I really like you and your posts, I hope this difference of opinion doesn't create bad blood between us in the future and on other topics.
My whole career will mostly revolve around crime and shame, child and human trafficking, sexual assualt, murder etc.
I have no problem with topics related to shame, I do have a problem with cleaning up others people's mess at work however.
I really like you and your posts, I hope this difference of opinion doesn't create bad blood between us in the future and on other topics.
As for my comments - I didn't say that there's not a relationship between context of our lives and the fact that we then CHOOSE to seek ways to escape. I was honing in on your words that seemed to be blaming. You said 90% of the reason you drink was because of the stress..... My point was that might be 90% of the reason you CHOOSE to drink - but your choice is driven more by your addiction (at least I assume that based on your presence and comments here).
The workplace creates a dynamic that certainly makes that choice an easy one to make for many, many people.
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I quit once for a couple of years before. Told my bosses/business partners and they were very cool about it. I work in a fairly unusual company though.
This time I didn't say anything because, why? They're probably just going to think, "hmmm, again?" I'd rather just go quietly about my business and let the results at work speak for themselves.
This time I didn't say anything because, why? They're probably just going to think, "hmmm, again?" I'd rather just go quietly about my business and let the results at work speak for themselves.
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Originally Posted by FreeOwl
Of course not.... but what about the person who come to you sincerely and says
"I am struggling with addiction and I don't want it to consume me anymore or impact my job. I want to get well, and I need to go to rehab.... I'm here to ask your support for my position when I return. I know it won't be an excuse and if you give me this shot, I won't ask you for another if I blow it.... but I'm not going to blow it. Will you help me?"
Or how about - like the execs that came to my friend - you see one of your employees struggling, you learn that he / she is in detox one day... would you reach out and help? Would you BRING them that one chance? Would you BE the person who might be the person that helped them finally turn their lives around?
"I am struggling with addiction and I don't want it to consume me anymore or impact my job. I want to get well, and I need to go to rehab.... I'm here to ask your support for my position when I return. I know it won't be an excuse and if you give me this shot, I won't ask you for another if I blow it.... but I'm not going to blow it. Will you help me?"
Or how about - like the execs that came to my friend - you see one of your employees struggling, you learn that he / she is in detox one day... would you reach out and help? Would you BRING them that one chance? Would you BE the person who might be the person that helped them finally turn their lives around?
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Originally Posted by Reset
I quit once for a couple of years before. Told my bosses/business partners and they were very cool about it. I work in a fairly unusual company though.
This time I didn't say anything because, why? They're probably just going to think, "hmmm, again?" I'd rather just go quietly about my business and let the results at work speak for themselves.
This time I didn't say anything because, why? They're probably just going to think, "hmmm, again?" I'd rather just go quietly about my business and let the results at work speak for themselves.
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Originally Posted by KidsEverywhere
I know I'm butting into a conversation here, but I think the scenario you mention here where someone comes to their boss with their hat in their hand asking for help is not a typical or even very likely scenario- particularly at a small company without an HR dept. My experience is that people with bad alcohol problems begin to miss a lot of work, become a lot less productive and they have their butt in a sling at work and are close to losing their job. When things get real bad, they need more time off to get cleaned up and at that point, they have already pushed their poor attendance and poor productivity to the limits and I can see at a small company how someone would be done with that employee by the time the alcoholic is ready to get help.
yeah.... exactly.
I donno, I think if it weren't so shameful, intimidating, looked down upon and shunned - people might ask for help more.
I got a DUI in 2004. FORTUNATELY for me, I got the DUI while driving the global VP of sales to his flight in LA, after he and I had enjoyed a 'dinner' of a half dozen top shelf margaritas each and killed a six pack together.
I say FORTUNATELY - because in that instance the Global VP clearly had an alcohol problem, clearly was 'involved' and clearly helped me 'hide' the situation. As a result of 'hiding' the situation, I didn't lose my job..... but I also didn't get serious about dealing with my addiction as an issue. I didn't seek serious help. I didn't look into my options with HR. I didn't even consider rehab (though it was strongly advised by my attorney, my then-wife, my family) primarily because I couldn't figure out how to "hide" rehab from my employer and because my Global VP discouraged it (because he didn't want to be implicated in any of this).
I know I'm pointing out one of those Big Scary Hairy Boil The Ocean problems here. I'm not trying to advocate a blanket change of behavior and that everyone should run right straight to their CIO or direct supervisor and throw themselves on their mercy admitting to their addiction problem.
This thread has ventured into a Very Big Theoretical Dialogue - which I believe is an important one, but which we on the thread cannot change..... that said, we can be a part of that dialogue over time.
And ultimately the point really was simply to share a hopeful story for those who still suffer - when it comes to employment, it may not always be necessary to just "hide it" and deal try to slog through.... sometimes, there are avenues. Sometimes, it pays to at least look into your options. Sometimes, your employer may be able to help be part of the solution.
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It's good to read about this positive story. I would venture to bet that this particular situation isn't the norm by any stretch.
I hold a senior management position at a company at a high tech company in Silicon Valley. There's absolutely no way in heck I'd ever (EVER) admit that I'm alcoholic to my SVPs, HR reps or co-workers. It's bad enough my detox hospital stint is on my insurance record.
There's too much of a stigma with how corporations view addiction. They may pretend to walk to walk, but in reality there's a stigma. We are demonized and looked upon as those with a mental weakness. Any slip up at work and my employer will jump to conclusions, like a relapse.
I'm not an advocate for being open with employers about addiction. What is said, can and will be used against you.
Sorry if I sound a little jaded and cynical. I'm trying to be realistic.
I hold a senior management position at a company at a high tech company in Silicon Valley. There's absolutely no way in heck I'd ever (EVER) admit that I'm alcoholic to my SVPs, HR reps or co-workers. It's bad enough my detox hospital stint is on my insurance record.
There's too much of a stigma with how corporations view addiction. They may pretend to walk to walk, but in reality there's a stigma. We are demonized and looked upon as those with a mental weakness. Any slip up at work and my employer will jump to conclusions, like a relapse.
I'm not an advocate for being open with employers about addiction. What is said, can and will be used against you.
Sorry if I sound a little jaded and cynical. I'm trying to be realistic.
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I'm not at all surprised to hear your jaded, cynical perspective.
It was just over a year ago that we saw a top Google exec die from an overdose death.
There's plenty of evidence of the addiction issues in the Valley.
Combine money and ego and swizzle it in with a need to work ridiculous hours and focus on power and success - you've got a recipe for addictive disaster for sure.
"There's too much of a stigma with how corporations view addiction. They may pretend to walk to walk, but in reality there's a stigma. We are demonized and looked upon as those with a mental weakness."
What is most ironic and sad about this is that it is very frequently OTHER people with active addiction problems who most look upon others with the sense of stigma.....
It was just over a year ago that we saw a top Google exec die from an overdose death.
There's plenty of evidence of the addiction issues in the Valley.
Combine money and ego and swizzle it in with a need to work ridiculous hours and focus on power and success - you've got a recipe for addictive disaster for sure.
"There's too much of a stigma with how corporations view addiction. They may pretend to walk to walk, but in reality there's a stigma. We are demonized and looked upon as those with a mental weakness."
What is most ironic and sad about this is that it is very frequently OTHER people with active addiction problems who most look upon others with the sense of stigma.....
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Originally Posted by FreeOwl
I'm not at all surprised to hear your jaded, cynical perspective.
It was just over a year ago that we saw a top Google exec die from an overdose death.
There's plenty of evidence of the addiction issues in the Valley.
Combine money and ego and swizzle it in with a need to work ridiculous hours and focus on power and success - you've got a recipe for addictive disaster for sure.
"There's too much of a stigma with how corporations view addiction. They may pretend to walk to walk, but in reality there's a stigma. We are demonized and looked upon as those with a mental weakness."
What is most ironic and sad about this is that it is very frequently OTHER people with active addiction problems who most look upon others with the sense of stigma.....
It was just over a year ago that we saw a top Google exec die from an overdose death.
There's plenty of evidence of the addiction issues in the Valley.
Combine money and ego and swizzle it in with a need to work ridiculous hours and focus on power and success - you've got a recipe for addictive disaster for sure.
"There's too much of a stigma with how corporations view addiction. They may pretend to walk to walk, but in reality there's a stigma. We are demonized and looked upon as those with a mental weakness."
What is most ironic and sad about this is that it is very frequently OTHER people with active addiction problems who most look upon others with the sense of stigma.....
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The reason that people with addiction get looked at with stigma by other addicts is because we know how the game works.
The lies, missed work, poor productivity.
If I didn't own my own business, I would be unemployed, I miss work because of hangovers, its pure hell to make it through the day after a binge, my productivity is low, I have to rearrange things because of my drinking, then when I'm not drinking, the insomnia from the drinking makes it so that I only sleep 3 hours a night for 4 days after.
I'm not being mean, I just know the drill.
Like I said, this business only has room for one alcoholic.
I'm must lucky my clients really like me and because I own it, I can take time off and no one says anything, I've had most of my clients for years.
My business does well, but I guarantee it would be far more successful if my drinking didn't get in the way of expanding.
If an employee came to me with hat in hand and needed time off to go to rehab, I don't know if they would have a position; it depends on whether or not that position is still available, unfortunately I need to fill their spot to get the work done.
If I don't fill the position, then I have to do it.
I would LOVE to go to rehab, please, someone take me to rehab.....but I can't, the business would fall apart, I can't withdraw from my classes etc.
So while my addicted employee is in rehab, I have to hire someone, spend time doing interviews, checking references, doing paperwork and spend hours training someone new, plus fill in the gaps myself and ask other staff to stay late and pick up the slack.
We all have social responsibilties to one another, but I can't afford to do it with a small business, I'll have to help people in other ways.
I'm just giving the perspective of an employer here, and why having an alcoholic working for you can be a nightmare.
The lies, missed work, poor productivity.
If I didn't own my own business, I would be unemployed, I miss work because of hangovers, its pure hell to make it through the day after a binge, my productivity is low, I have to rearrange things because of my drinking, then when I'm not drinking, the insomnia from the drinking makes it so that I only sleep 3 hours a night for 4 days after.
I'm not being mean, I just know the drill.
Like I said, this business only has room for one alcoholic.
I'm must lucky my clients really like me and because I own it, I can take time off and no one says anything, I've had most of my clients for years.
My business does well, but I guarantee it would be far more successful if my drinking didn't get in the way of expanding.
If an employee came to me with hat in hand and needed time off to go to rehab, I don't know if they would have a position; it depends on whether or not that position is still available, unfortunately I need to fill their spot to get the work done.
If I don't fill the position, then I have to do it.
I would LOVE to go to rehab, please, someone take me to rehab.....but I can't, the business would fall apart, I can't withdraw from my classes etc.
So while my addicted employee is in rehab, I have to hire someone, spend time doing interviews, checking references, doing paperwork and spend hours training someone new, plus fill in the gaps myself and ask other staff to stay late and pick up the slack.
We all have social responsibilties to one another, but I can't afford to do it with a small business, I'll have to help people in other ways.
I'm just giving the perspective of an employer here, and why having an alcoholic working for you can be a nightmare.
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"My business does well, but I guarantee it would be far more successful if my drinking didn't get in the way of expanding.
If an employee came to me with hat in hand and needed time off to go to rehab, I don't know if they would have a position; it depends on whether or not that position is still available, unfortunately I need to fill their spot to get the work done.
If I don't fill the position, then I have to do it."
What if you came to yourself - hat in hand - and needed support to get well......
How would your business do, then?
In what ways might this stigma you hold be directed at yourself?
In what ways might you better support YOU - your company's most critical addicted employee?
If an employee came to me with hat in hand and needed time off to go to rehab, I don't know if they would have a position; it depends on whether or not that position is still available, unfortunately I need to fill their spot to get the work done.
If I don't fill the position, then I have to do it."
What if you came to yourself - hat in hand - and needed support to get well......
How would your business do, then?
In what ways might this stigma you hold be directed at yourself?
In what ways might you better support YOU - your company's most critical addicted employee?
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Originally Posted by FreeOwl
"My business does well, but I guarantee it would be far more successful if my drinking didn't get in the way of expanding.
If an employee came to me with hat in hand and needed time off to go to rehab, I don't know if they would have a position; it depends on whether or not that position is still available, unfortunately I need to fill their spot to get the work done.
If I don't fill the position, then I have to do it."
What if you came to yourself - hat in hand - and needed support to get well......
How would your business do, then?
In what ways might this stigma you hold be directed at yourself?
In what ways might you better support YOU - your company's most critical addicted employee?
If an employee came to me with hat in hand and needed time off to go to rehab, I don't know if they would have a position; it depends on whether or not that position is still available, unfortunately I need to fill their spot to get the work done.
If I don't fill the position, then I have to do it."
What if you came to yourself - hat in hand - and needed support to get well......
How would your business do, then?
In what ways might this stigma you hold be directed at yourself?
In what ways might you better support YOU - your company's most critical addicted employee?
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I had a situation 6 years ago where I went to outpatient rehab for 4 weeks I was out of work on leave. I am still at the same company and have been promoted twice since then and it is as if nobody I work for knows now since there has been six years- my boss I know knows, but it have never come up. But my situation at the time was I was a moderate drinker- my wife got a boyfriend at her work and up and decided to leave. We had three kids 2, 5, and 7. It was ugly and everyone I worked for was on my side and really felt sorry for me. I got heavy in the bottle after she left (I get the kids some during the week and every weekend) but the divorce was ugly in that it was highly contested before we agreed. I got a DUI in the middle of it all. And the next day when I got out of jail, went to a rehab facility where they recommended outpatient for four weeks- I called my boss and HR, told them what happened and that I though with everything going on, it would be best for me to get away from my big empty house and hit reset on things. (I stayed at my parents for that month). They were very supportive and there has been no stigma. I would not have been promoted twice had there been. My story is probably not common, but my point is, I was a high performing member in good standing with another situation going on in my life that probably made the rehab time off more palatable with my employer.
Had I been laying out and unproductive, not going through any other issue, I probably would not have been given the same response.
Had I been laying out and unproductive, not going through any other issue, I probably would not have been given the same response.
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