HOUMJM

Hi all,

Living in complete grace these past 111 days. Trying hard not to squander this 3rd chance at sobriety - so far so good. The compulsion to drink has been completely removed - a miracle indeed.

Been back and fully embracing AA also as part of my recovery plan. Was doing a 5th step this week with a catholic priest at a near-by retreat center that has a lot of AA activity. One of my 4th step resentments was against the Lutheran church, as it was rammed down my throat for the 1st 15 years of my life via my minister father. Father Joe offered during the course of this discussion "Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell, spirituality is for those who have already been there". Wow - blew me away.

Hang in there newcomers. Living sober again is so wonderful - you can do this too !!!!

Peace-out, MJM

zerothehero

Father Joe is a wise man. Religion without spirituality is an empty shell. Spirituality without religion has no shell, but that's okay.

Keep it up, H.

Anna

I do think it's important to have a spiritual connection in recovery.

Nowsthetime

Hello:

I don't agree. I have spirituality and I'm not not religious, even though I love the culture part of ALL religions. I have never been to hell. I think he is doing a disservice to the terminology.

I agree with Anna. You do not need a spiritual connection to rock recovery. Different strokes for different folks.

biminiblue

Nowisthetime, with all due respect - in reading some of your past posts I'd say it sounds like you have been to Hell; I think anyone with addiction problems has felt that misery.

It's not just a hot place after you die, it's a way of living that strips us of happiness and joy and hope while we are alive. It is a spiritual desert with no water.

Anna said it is important to have a spiritual connection.

Nowsthetime

No way! That wasn't hell, it was life, the life I created with my choices and actions mixed with the circumstances. I know real misery and having "1st world problems" isn't hell in my opinion. And all the negative things that have been horrible in my life are still not hell in my opinion. Please don't tell me where I have or haven't been, that's like telling me how I feel.

I guess I did misunderstand her. Spirituality helps but I don't think it's necessary. Each person has to decide for themselves. We can't say there an end all be all to recovery.

Nowsthetime

I didn't want to end up in hell. That's why I am doing something about it

neferkamichael

HOUMJM, 111 days sober is just FANTASTIC, congratulations. The Catholic Church was rammed down my throat for the first 12 years or so. The best thing I got outta AA was separating spiritually from religion, rootin for ya,

Aellyce

I've had what I would describe as spiritual experiences (for me) more than once in my life... three major ones I would say. Each one quite transformative and they were followed by pretty dramatic, long-lasting changes. None of them had anything to do with religion or any sort of organization in this case. The last, more recent, one was what shortly preceded my commitment to getting sober after years of wanting it but failing... I still find it interesting.

Another interesting common pattern in these for me: first there was always ~a year of intense suffering (different ways and reasons)... then a relatively brief period of mental "transformation" process... and then the action and the long term changes. In a highly symbolic sense, maybe that spirituality definition in the OP fits me... I don't think about all this much or try to project explanations on it; I'm more just going with the realizations and the flow and let them affect me. What describes it best from popular terms is probably the word "transpersonal". Again, I do not aspire to figure out what it really is or where it comes from; I'm more into the experience itself and the consequences.

In general, I don't believe that spirituality is really necessary for getting sober, for long-term recovery, and many other significant life changes. It's also all very subjective, including how we view our own experiences and a chain of events.

Hmm I don't think I've ever summarized this stuff so briefly

Nice about the 111 days and your realizations!

Soberwolf

Congrats Houmjm

Anna

Some posts have been removed.

A reminder to keep personal comments to PM only, not on the boards. Thanks.

retiredusaf

I was a church goer for years. Then something made me quit going. I won't bore you with the details. Now I feel better with AA than I did in church. Church taught me about God and the Bible. AA is teaching me how to fix myself and be a better person. I never learned those things in any church I ever attended.