Mattcake

You've pretty much summed it up, Artoro. "Correcting" thoughts is vital. They won't just magically change by themselves, lol.

Thank you

Mattcake

Departure, I agree with "telling on yourself". Where there is truth, there is no room for denial...

Mattcake

Mr Corn, I saved your post for the end.

It's not guilt, it's shame. Guilt is usually a feeling that you get when you know you've done something wrong.

Shame is pervasive. You don't know *what* you did wrong, but you still feel guilty. And, yes, the powerful institution that you mentioned filled my life with shame for many years. I turned my back on that institution when I was 18 years old, and it was a very difficult process. Now, at 31, I feel a new wave of shame that I can trace back to it.

I know this first hand. It's not nice, being 13 and being told by the powers that be that you're going to Hell for loving another human being - of your same sex.

[QUOTE=JohnBarleycorn;2935135] Are you lying because you are trying to spare people's feelings, or because you are trying to avoid unnecessary and needless conflict?

Neither. Or both. I'm not sure. I do know that it's a lingering symptom of my addiction. Lies are the foundation of addiction. It's taking conscious effort to stop lying, period.

These days I disagree with that. In theory, I'd rather tell the truth from the start, and deal with the consequences. Work in progress.

No. I'm learning about the importance of having guiding values in my life. They are absolute and not tempered by circumstances ie reality. They are what I strive for... and, strangely enough, they are what I can offer freely, right now.

Thanks, Johnny

JohnBarleycorn

This could start a whole philosophical discussion - entire volumes have been written on it - but here goes.

Shame tends to be brought on by a violation of cultural or social values, while guilt tends to arise from violations of one's internal values.

If one has internalized those cultural or social values, even unconsciously, it is possible to feel ashamed of thought or behavior that no one knows about (ie, being gay and "in the closet").

Similarly, it is possible to feel guilt about actions that others approve of, if they violates one's internal values. For example, drinking is generally culturally accepted, and my old drinking buddies would probably approve 100% of me drinking, but it would violate my internal values, and I would probably feel guilt in doing so.

That old black/white dichotomy of good vs. evil, saint vs. sinner dies a hard death.

Read Nietzsche. :-)

Fair enough.

Therein lies a problem with absolutes not tempered by reality. They can lead to painful consequences.

Accepting consequences for you alone is fine, but what about the consequences for others? Shouldn't they be taken into account?

For example, if someone where to ask me, in your presence, "John, do you think that mattcake79 is a fat, ugly, slimeball?" and I believed that you are (I don't), might not absolute honesty on my part be unjustified, based on the consequences?

Ideals are good, and striving for them is also good, but ideals must be tempered by reality.

It is following blind idealism not tempered by reality, such as was the case with transcendental Marxism, that leads to the most horrific suffering imaginable. Entire continents destroyed and millions of innocents killed on the basis of an ideal which had little basis in reality.

In a civilized society, we must always take into account the effects our actions would have on others if carried out, even if we believe them to be ideal and just.

Mattcake

Sorry to quote myself, but I'd like clarify what I meant by this. It's "I can't take being lied to, yet... I lie." So... yikes. There it is.