Some Questions and Reservations About AA...
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 80
I think it might be helpful at this point to elaborate a bit on some of the concerns I have about AA:
I have trouble with the "disease" concept in AA. If alcoholism is a disease, then shouldn't the 12 steps be applicable to overcome any disease? I know that may sound ridiculous, but I am merely applying logic here. Another issue with this is there is something inherently shame based about this concept for me, as one according to my understanding of AA is always an alcoholic, even after they have recovered. Labels can often keep reinforcing the very behavior people are trying to change. Today, I am VERY comfortable admitting I have a serious drinking problem, and that I need help. I don't believe nor do I WANT to do this alone.
As to to specific steps, 6&7 are hard for me to grock. Step 6 uses the phrase "defects of character". I don't entirely buy that. Many addicts are suffering from a biological propensity to addiction. This is not a defect of character, in my opinion. Finally, there is the issue of turning over my "shortcomings and defects of character to God" so they can be removed. OK, that's great. But if God removes these shortcomings and defects of character, then am I not an alcoholic anymore?
Just some initial thoughts...sincere feedback appreciated.
I have trouble with the "disease" concept in AA. If alcoholism is a disease, then shouldn't the 12 steps be applicable to overcome any disease? I know that may sound ridiculous, but I am merely applying logic here. Another issue with this is there is something inherently shame based about this concept for me, as one according to my understanding of AA is always an alcoholic, even after they have recovered. Labels can often keep reinforcing the very behavior people are trying to change. Today, I am VERY comfortable admitting I have a serious drinking problem, and that I need help. I don't believe nor do I WANT to do this alone.
As to to specific steps, 6&7 are hard for me to grock. Step 6 uses the phrase "defects of character". I don't entirely buy that. Many addicts are suffering from a biological propensity to addiction. This is not a defect of character, in my opinion. Finally, there is the issue of turning over my "shortcomings and defects of character to God" so they can be removed. OK, that's great. But if God removes these shortcomings and defects of character, then am I not an alcoholic anymore?
Just some initial thoughts...sincere feedback appreciated.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 4,682
Originally Posted by Fandy 
if you can't decipher it you don't get the true meaning of AA and will not be able to recover....(j/k, I gave up too)
Yeah i know...no-one likes a smart ass
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Absolutely....
AA doesn't "officially" describe alcoholism as a disease... Neither do I (I am AA)... some do... the word illness is used in the Big Book. Call it what you want, really... This whole disease thing has been argued over and over, here in SR and in the media, etc...
And, if you haven't noticed, the whole 12 step process has been used for narcotic addiction, overeating, gambling, etc... it seems to work quite well when people "work it".
Shame... That's not something that AA is into... AA is all about leaving that shame behind... AAs believe that while one can recover from alcoholism, one must never drink again or the illness (or disease, whatever... the obsession...) will return, often with a vengeance... so it is useful to regard one's self as an alcoholic to remind us that the obsession will return if we try to drink again... it is not a label or a scarlet letter meant to keep us in shame... oh no, not at all.
We all have defects of character... all of us, it is a human thing, not an alcoholic thing... recovery from alcoholism, though is so much more than just not drinking, it is about change... cleaning house... making amends... being free!!! A spiritual awakening, it is a wonderful thing... don't knock it 'till you've tried it. Alcoholism is not, in my opinion caused by defects of character, but to get truly free of alcoholism, we must take a fearless moral inventory and change ourselves.... God relieves us of the obsession, not our alcoholism...
Taco... maybe you should get a Big Book, read it carefully, with someone if you can... And don't worry about steps 6 and 7 until you've completed 1,2,3,4 and 5!! It'll make sense then.
You seem genuinely interested... Why don't you open your heart and mind, get to some meetings, talk to people who have recovered using this simple program... read the book.
Mark
AA doesn't "officially" describe alcoholism as a disease... Neither do I (I am AA)... some do... the word illness is used in the Big Book. Call it what you want, really... This whole disease thing has been argued over and over, here in SR and in the media, etc...
And, if you haven't noticed, the whole 12 step process has been used for narcotic addiction, overeating, gambling, etc... it seems to work quite well when people "work it".
Shame... That's not something that AA is into... AA is all about leaving that shame behind... AAs believe that while one can recover from alcoholism, one must never drink again or the illness (or disease, whatever... the obsession...) will return, often with a vengeance... so it is useful to regard one's self as an alcoholic to remind us that the obsession will return if we try to drink again... it is not a label or a scarlet letter meant to keep us in shame... oh no, not at all.
We all have defects of character... all of us, it is a human thing, not an alcoholic thing... recovery from alcoholism, though is so much more than just not drinking, it is about change... cleaning house... making amends... being free!!! A spiritual awakening, it is a wonderful thing... don't knock it 'till you've tried it. Alcoholism is not, in my opinion caused by defects of character, but to get truly free of alcoholism, we must take a fearless moral inventory and change ourselves.... God relieves us of the obsession, not our alcoholism...
Taco... maybe you should get a Big Book, read it carefully, with someone if you can... And don't worry about steps 6 and 7 until you've completed 1,2,3,4 and 5!! It'll make sense then.
You seem genuinely interested... Why don't you open your heart and mind, get to some meetings, talk to people who have recovered using this simple program... read the book.
Mark
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Taco....
There are many SR members who are happily successfully sober
who do not use AA.....and many of us who have found AA recovery.
The Steps are in order You don't jump around
then they make more sense
The disease concept is a subject of on going
research. I don't feel that it matters to me.
Lables? everyone goes thru life with various lables.
I consider they are shorthand communication...
God? my God does not have to be what you rely
on....I don't need to use yours either.
My faith is not a matter of logic.
I sure hope you find a way to win over alcohol....
living in recovery is simply awesome....
There are many SR members who are happily successfully sober
who do not use AA.....and many of us who have found AA recovery.
The Steps are in order You don't jump around
then they make more sense
The disease concept is a subject of on going
research. I don't feel that it matters to me.
Lables? everyone goes thru life with various lables.
I consider they are shorthand communication...
God? my God does not have to be what you rely
on....I don't need to use yours either.
My faith is not a matter of logic.
I sure hope you find a way to win over alcohol....
living in recovery is simply awesome....
Practice Sobriety
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: KC missouri
Posts: 885
I wouldn't get spend energy on trying to figure out the details on certain parts of AA, try spending energy on action to see if the programs work or not and getting sober. In the time you burn thinking about if you agree with AA or not you could have gotten the experience of going a time or two out of the way.
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by TacoDude
...elaborate a bit on some of the concerns I have about AA
And the folks in AA didn't care. They didn't care if I agreed with their ideas or if I had concerns with their concepts.
They just asked me if I wanted to get better. They pointed out that I was a hopeless drunk who, despite my best efforts, could not stay sober for any length of time. And they said they would show me how they stayed sober.
And I'm thinking, who the the hell are they to tell me how to stay sober? But then another year goes by. I'm still drunk and miserable. They are still sober. I still have my concerns, but what have I got to lose?
So I ask them to show me how they stay sober. And when I start arguing about some concept I disagree with or have a concern with, they tell me they don't care. Agree or not. They said, "Here is what we do to stay sober. Take it or leave it."
So what was I going to do? Disagree all I want, I wasn't able to stay sober. They were. When it got so bad that I couldn't go on, I became willing to do what they did. And I recovered like they did, in spite of my concerns.
Agree, disagree, do it, don't do it, it's all up to you. If you don't like it or don't agree, do something you do agree with and you do like. If you find yourself still drunk next year, maybe reconsider your concerns.
I just read a thread over in the Addict 12 Step stuff. Guy starts off talking all about how much he disagrees with NA. How he hates that crap. 4 days go by and he uses again. Comes back and talks about how much he disagrees with NA. And on and on. Meanwhile those NA people are enjoying another day of being clean.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 80
My questions are merely sincere inquiries...I'm just starting out here and simply am trying to seek understanding...whether you see it or not, implied in your response is that AA is the only way, at least that's how it comes across. THIS is the very thing that turns me off:
If you find yourself still drunk next year, maybe reconsider your concerns.
If you find yourself still drunk next year, maybe reconsider your concerns.
Originally Posted by keithj
Agree, disagree, do it, don't do it, it's all up to you. If you don't like it or don't agree, do something you do agree with and you do like. If you find yourself still drunk next year, maybe reconsider your concerns.
I just read a thread over in the Addict 12 Step stuff. Guy starts off talking all about how much he disagrees with NA. How he hates that crap. 4 days go by and he uses again. Comes back and talks about how much he disagrees with NA. And on and on. Meanwhile those NA people are enjoying another day of being clean.
I just read a thread over in the Addict 12 Step stuff. Guy starts off talking all about how much he disagrees with NA. How he hates that crap. 4 days go by and he uses again. Comes back and talks about how much he disagrees with NA. And on and on. Meanwhile those NA people are enjoying another day of being clean.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 438
Originally Posted by TacoDude
I think it might be helpful at this point to elaborate a bit on some of the concerns I have about AA:
I have trouble with the "disease" concept in AA. If alcoholism is a disease, then shouldn't the 12 steps be applicable to overcome any disease?
Good question. I think that you might draw a comparison between alcoholism and certain mental illnesses that use talk or cognitive therapy...not exactly the same thing but the 12 step model could be seen as a program of changing behaviors and thought processes...something not only used in therapy for mental illnesses but for physical ones as well (i.e., altering diet, stopping smoking, etc.)
I know that may sound ridiculous, but I am merely applying logic here. Another issue with this is there is something inherently shame based about this concept for me, as one according to my understanding of AA is always an alcoholic, even after they have recovered.
I feel no shame whatsoever about being labeled an alcoholic. If I had a physical allergy to peanuts it's not something I'd be ashamed of or try to 'cure', it would simply be a fact. I'm allergic to alcohol and probably always will be. BFD. So I don't drink.
Labels can often keep reinforcing the very behavior people are trying to change. Today, I am VERY comfortable admitting I have a serious drinking problem, and that I need help. I don't believe nor do I WANT to do this alone.
As to to specific steps, 6&7 are hard for me to grock.
Everybody has defects of character. But for some reason (that's explained in AA literature better than I can here) because of our effed up way of thinking (the mental part of alcoholism), not addressing these shortcomings in some kind of thorough and formal way can be dangerous to our sobriety.
Step 6 uses the phrase "defects of character". I don't entirely buy that. Many addicts are suffering from a biological propensity to addiction. This is not a defect of character, in my opinion.
I agree. A biological propensity to addiction is not a character defect. But like I said, everyone has character defects. It's just that for alcoholics, our sobriety depends on a rigorous program of self-examination and a deliberate process of addressing our issues.
Finally, there is the issue of turning over my "shortcomings and defects of character to God" so they can be removed. OK, that's great. But if God removes these shortcomings and defects of character, then am I not an alcoholic anymore?
It's kind of a bummer, but no...I think you're still an alcoholic. But hopefully by the time you start thinking about turning your will and your life over to a higher power (you don't have to say 'god'), you'll realize that being an alcoholic isn't the end of the world. I think it's safe to say that sober alcoholics can be and are often far happier and satisfied with their lives than non-alcoholics.
Just some initial thoughts...sincere feedback appreciated.
I have trouble with the "disease" concept in AA. If alcoholism is a disease, then shouldn't the 12 steps be applicable to overcome any disease?
Good question. I think that you might draw a comparison between alcoholism and certain mental illnesses that use talk or cognitive therapy...not exactly the same thing but the 12 step model could be seen as a program of changing behaviors and thought processes...something not only used in therapy for mental illnesses but for physical ones as well (i.e., altering diet, stopping smoking, etc.)
I know that may sound ridiculous, but I am merely applying logic here. Another issue with this is there is something inherently shame based about this concept for me, as one according to my understanding of AA is always an alcoholic, even after they have recovered.
I feel no shame whatsoever about being labeled an alcoholic. If I had a physical allergy to peanuts it's not something I'd be ashamed of or try to 'cure', it would simply be a fact. I'm allergic to alcohol and probably always will be. BFD. So I don't drink.
Labels can often keep reinforcing the very behavior people are trying to change. Today, I am VERY comfortable admitting I have a serious drinking problem, and that I need help. I don't believe nor do I WANT to do this alone.
As to to specific steps, 6&7 are hard for me to grock.
Everybody has defects of character. But for some reason (that's explained in AA literature better than I can here) because of our effed up way of thinking (the mental part of alcoholism), not addressing these shortcomings in some kind of thorough and formal way can be dangerous to our sobriety.
Step 6 uses the phrase "defects of character". I don't entirely buy that. Many addicts are suffering from a biological propensity to addiction. This is not a defect of character, in my opinion.
I agree. A biological propensity to addiction is not a character defect. But like I said, everyone has character defects. It's just that for alcoholics, our sobriety depends on a rigorous program of self-examination and a deliberate process of addressing our issues.
Finally, there is the issue of turning over my "shortcomings and defects of character to God" so they can be removed. OK, that's great. But if God removes these shortcomings and defects of character, then am I not an alcoholic anymore?
It's kind of a bummer, but no...I think you're still an alcoholic. But hopefully by the time you start thinking about turning your will and your life over to a higher power (you don't have to say 'god'), you'll realize that being an alcoholic isn't the end of the world. I think it's safe to say that sober alcoholics can be and are often far happier and satisfied with their lives than non-alcoholics.
Just some initial thoughts...sincere feedback appreciated.
I never in a million years thought I'd believe AA was anything other than a crock of sh!t...much less become a very satisfied member...until very recently. Give it a shot, then decide if you want to continue. There's also no law that says you have to 'do' AA a certain way. The 12 steps are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery, not laws written in stone...and don't let anyone try to convince you otherwise. There are flaky people in AA, just as there are flaky people everywhere. Don't try to insist it's got to be 'perfect' before you see how much you might benefit from it.
And keep posting...I'd love to hear what you think about it if you DO decide to try some AA. Take care,
Stephanie
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
IDK... Keith can speak for himself, usually very well... but before you dismiss his delivery, go back and read the first part of his post... he had many of the same concerns you did, in fact more... he was atheist.
You are not unique Taco, not by a long shot.
One thing I hear a lot, is that the best convincer for AA is alcohol itself.
Read the book, please... don't listen to me, or keith or daytrader or yeahgr8... or any of us... get your own experience... because that will be unique, and then you can pass it on, because it will have value to all of us
Mark
You are not unique Taco, not by a long shot.
One thing I hear a lot, is that the best convincer for AA is alcohol itself.
Read the book, please... don't listen to me, or keith or daytrader or yeahgr8... or any of us... get your own experience... because that will be unique, and then you can pass it on, because it will have value to all of us
Mark
Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,095
Originally Posted by TacoDude
My questions are merely sincere inquiries
I get what you are saying. 'If you find yourself drunk next year,' or 'how's that working for you' sounds like I'm expecting you to fail if you go off and do something besides AA.
I can assure you, most AA folks don't feel that way at all. The above are just statements of fact and humility. They are intended to get at the truth.
Can you stay sober on your own? True or false.
Can you stay sober on willpower? Fear? Self knowledge?
Really, those statements are intended to qualify you, to determine if AA can help you or not.
Because if you can answer any of them with 'true', you don't need AA.
It's not that I think you will fail, it's that I don't think you need AA if you can stay sober some other way. But, if you can not stay sober (true or false), then I know AA has a solution for you.
The problem is, access to that solution requires being convinced without a doubt that you can not stay sober.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 80
Keth,
I appreciate the clarification, thanks. All I know right right now is that I have a problem, I need help, and I am unwilling to do it alone, so that's why I'm here and open to exploring AA. Regardless of my reservations about AA, it was the first thing to come to mind. That said, at this point, I've got nothing to lose by going to a meeting.
It's lunchtime now, so time to eat some tacos!
I appreciate the clarification, thanks. All I know right right now is that I have a problem, I need help, and I am unwilling to do it alone, so that's why I'm here and open to exploring AA. Regardless of my reservations about AA, it was the first thing to come to mind. That said, at this point, I've got nothing to lose by going to a meeting.
It's lunchtime now, so time to eat some tacos!
Originally Posted by keithj
I believe that, TacoDude, I really do. They are the same concerns I had.
I get what you are saying. 'If you find yourself drunk next year,' or 'how's that working for you' sounds like I'm expecting you to fail if you go off and do something besides AA.
I can assure you, most AA folks don't feel that way at all. The above are just statements of fact and humility. They are intended to get at the truth.
Can you stay sober on your own? True or false.
Can you stay sober on willpower? Fear? Self knowledge?
Really, those statements are intended to qualify you, to determine if AA can help you or not.
Because if you can answer any of them with 'true', you don't need AA.
It's not that I think you will fail, it's that I don't think you need AA if you can stay sober some other way. But, if you can not stay sober (true or false), then I know AA has a solution for you.
The problem is, access to that solution requires being convinced without a doubt that you can not stay sober.
I get what you are saying. 'If you find yourself drunk next year,' or 'how's that working for you' sounds like I'm expecting you to fail if you go off and do something besides AA.
I can assure you, most AA folks don't feel that way at all. The above are just statements of fact and humility. They are intended to get at the truth.
Can you stay sober on your own? True or false.
Can you stay sober on willpower? Fear? Self knowledge?
Really, those statements are intended to qualify you, to determine if AA can help you or not.
Because if you can answer any of them with 'true', you don't need AA.
It's not that I think you will fail, it's that I don't think you need AA if you can stay sober some other way. But, if you can not stay sober (true or false), then I know AA has a solution for you.
The problem is, access to that solution requires being convinced without a doubt that you can not stay sober.
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 395
Originally Posted by TacoDude
I get the feeling from a number of AA folks over the years that they feel AA is the only TRUE path to sobriety and if not followed to the letter and for the remainder of one's life will result in certain relapse and ultimately death.
I have met people in AA with over 20 years who never did the steps. I have met people in AA who have done the steps numerous times and constantly relapse. I have met people who have done the steps, claim they has a life changing experience, and never drank again.
Again, there is no one size fits all. You need to find what works for you. You do this by sharing and listening with other drunks. That is how I view AA.
That said, have any of you regularly gone to AA mainly for the purpose of sharing and or getting support, but disregarded the stuff that didn't work for you?
Can one get a sponsor even if you are not working the 12 steps exactly as prescribed?
I have been through the steps. They really didn't do that much for me. I didn't feel different afterward. What I found most helpful was talking to other drunks and creating wonderful friends.
I have trouble with the "disease" concept in AA
Alcoholism is an addictive disorder which can be overcome with a personal desire, force of the will, honesty, and learning how to stay away from the first drink. Sobriety is for people who want it, not need it.
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,947
Originally Posted by Antiderivative
Alcoholism is an addictive disorder which can be overcome with a personal desire, force of the will, honesty, and learning how to stay away from the first drink. Sobriety is for people who want it, not need it.
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