Serious question.
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Serious question.
I don't know if this is the right place, but it is something I have been mulling around in my mind for a while. Ok, if alcoholism is a 'disease', how or why is it that so many 'famous/well known' people end up with alcohol or substance problems? Is it truly that they would All definitely end up with this illness or could it be that alcoholism is not a disease but a 'life choice' made by people, and obviously, those people in the public eye, with access to vast amounts of money, influenced by others etc, simple 'choose' to become users?
This is not my view by the way, just a question I have been thinking about - has anyone else had ever thought about this?. It came about as I was reading about yet another 'star' who has liver failure due to alcohol abuse. would this guy have liver failure if he'd become a librarian?
Just something I've been pondering!
thanks
cm
This is not my view by the way, just a question I have been thinking about - has anyone else had ever thought about this?. It came about as I was reading about yet another 'star' who has liver failure due to alcohol abuse. would this guy have liver failure if he'd become a librarian?
Just something I've been pondering!
thanks
cm
I'm just a little unwell
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: USA
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This is just my thoughts - not backed up by anthing scientific at all 
- but I think that for stars/celebrities it may very well start off as a "life choice" and over time evolve into a problem. Maybe some of them aren't "textbook" alcoholics/addicts, maybe they are. We'll never really know.
But if they had been librarians instead of rock stars, they wouldn't have had the cash or the access to the drugs and booze, so they probably wouldn't have gone down the same path. Or maybe they would have found a way to succumb to the disease even if they were broke and homeless, like so many thousands of unknown people do every single day.
We only hear about certain ones because they're famous. Doesn't make them more important OR less diseased. Just more rich.
- but I think that for stars/celebrities it may very well start off as a "life choice" and over time evolve into a problem. Maybe some of them aren't "textbook" alcoholics/addicts, maybe they are. We'll never really know. But if they had been librarians instead of rock stars, they wouldn't have had the cash or the access to the drugs and booze, so they probably wouldn't have gone down the same path. Or maybe they would have found a way to succumb to the disease even if they were broke and homeless, like so many thousands of unknown people do every single day.
We only hear about certain ones because they're famous. Doesn't make them more important OR less diseased. Just more rich.
Last edited by TryingSoHard; 02-22-2009 at 02:58 AM.
I'm just a little unwell
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But really, when you stop and think about it, we only hear about the celebrities with really bad problems. Think about all the OTHER famous people out there that we DON'T ever hear rehab talk of. There are A LOT of musicians in the world, and I'm sure the vast majority of them drink and do drugs. But the vast majority of them don't get addicted, they just overdo it. Then they get un-famous and their money goes away and they tend to sober up.
Now I'm curious about this.
Now I'm curious about this.
I'm just a little unwell
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Side note: do you ever read any of the books written by/about rock stars? Books like Tommy Land (Tommy Lee of Motley Crue), Heroin Diaries (Nikki Sixx of Motley Crue), or Scar Tissue (Anthony Kiedis, Red Hot Chili Peppers)? Talk about SHOCKERS. Cripes. Definitely good books and interesting reads, but you put them down asking yourself how these guys are still alive. Especially Nikki Sixx... dude DIED TWICE - literally. He's charmed, for sure.
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awesome question...
had to ponder that one for awhile...
as a musician myself, i relate it like this...
the overly creative mind, combined with a tad more of egocentricity, the quest for fame, wealth, and look at me!
add some super pride, competativeness, at times, insane fantasy and dreams...
(all alcoholic traits)
heaps of lifestyle, partys, partys, partys...
lots of pre-performace anxietys!
that just might be a little clue!!!
fact of the matter, the guy didn't become a librarian... 
had to ponder that one for awhile...
as a musician myself, i relate it like this...
the overly creative mind, combined with a tad more of egocentricity, the quest for fame, wealth, and look at me!
add some super pride, competativeness, at times, insane fantasy and dreams...
(all alcoholic traits)
heaps of lifestyle, partys, partys, partys...
lots of pre-performace anxietys!
that just might be a little clue!!!
would this guy have liver failure if he'd become a librarian?
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Throw into that gentics, enviroment and conditioning, which we all know plays a massive part not just in alcoholism but all the life choices we supposedly make out of free will! I love this stuff and could go on for hours, it would be literally impossible to put a human being in a situation where he would make a choice with his own genuine free will, unless at some point in the future there is a way to place a person in a position of choice where it was his absolute first conscious moment and then his decision would be down to just gentics and instinct.
We will have to wait and see if alcoholism ever reaches the stage where i attects our governments enough for action to be taken. For example smoking, it is now proving to be more expensive to treat the illnesses bought on by long term smoking hence why we now have bans in public places and it is now a bad thing, whereas going back 40 years it was cool, the government was enjoying **** load of money through taxing the tobacco companies. Anyone who thinks it was the people who instigated any of this move towards anti smoking is a complete ******* idiot.
Going back to the disease, just wikipedia the meaning of disease and it will make sense why alcoholism is put in this category as opposed to just an addicition.
We will have to wait and see if alcoholism ever reaches the stage where i attects our governments enough for action to be taken. For example smoking, it is now proving to be more expensive to treat the illnesses bought on by long term smoking hence why we now have bans in public places and it is now a bad thing, whereas going back 40 years it was cool, the government was enjoying **** load of money through taxing the tobacco companies. Anyone who thinks it was the people who instigated any of this move towards anti smoking is a complete ******* idiot.
Going back to the disease, just wikipedia the meaning of disease and it will make sense why alcoholism is put in this category as opposed to just an addicition.
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Good question.
My uneducated guess is that there often is a connection between having an extremely creative mind and a tendency to self-medicate. A racing mind being quieted with a few drinks.
Another perspective is that no one is keeping a watchful eye on the librarian to see if he or she is stumbling about in the book racks. From what I have read, alcoholism is a big problem for the retired: home, alone, not famous, and not in the news.
I think alcoholism just sneaks up on a lot of us, and the more visible we are, the bigger the deal that is made out if it.
My uneducated guess is that there often is a connection between having an extremely creative mind and a tendency to self-medicate. A racing mind being quieted with a few drinks.
Another perspective is that no one is keeping a watchful eye on the librarian to see if he or she is stumbling about in the book racks. From what I have read, alcoholism is a big problem for the retired: home, alone, not famous, and not in the news.
I think alcoholism just sneaks up on a lot of us, and the more visible we are, the bigger the deal that is made out if it.
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Very interesting thread, the idea of alcohlism being a disease has never sat comfortable with me thats one of the reasons I cannot relate to AA, I think addiction is very misunderstood in society. In terms of the music scene, drink and drugs just go with the territory and gets spun around the media circus. Fame and overnight success is a huge change and must me hard to deal with, maybe thats why so many celebs fall into it, I dont believe they are any different to us, just numbing whats uncomfortable even if its highs or lows....
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As for the disease part of the question— I think that there are bio-, psycho-, and social- factors than contribute to alcoholism. So why does there seem to be a higher percentage of addicts among celebrities than the normal population?
They mostly in general share the same social factors and it seems like a rough life to me. As I get farther into recovery I am realizing two things: one, that while I was using I was keeping up an image of myself that was not necessarily who I really was, for lack of a better term I sort of had a fragmented self, and two, while I was using it allowed me to keep going in tons of situations where I did not feel comfortable or happy.
Being a celebrity seems like a rough life. First of all it is extremely fast paced. I can't imagine living at that speed. There are also people in your face all the time, therefore lack of personal space and privacy. Businesswise— that world is highly competitive and they can be downright mean. I mean in a way as a celebrity you are also a commodity. It seems just so likely that alcohol and drugs would be a way to cope and keep up. Not to mention the issue of access...
They mostly in general share the same social factors and it seems like a rough life to me. As I get farther into recovery I am realizing two things: one, that while I was using I was keeping up an image of myself that was not necessarily who I really was, for lack of a better term I sort of had a fragmented self, and two, while I was using it allowed me to keep going in tons of situations where I did not feel comfortable or happy.
Being a celebrity seems like a rough life. First of all it is extremely fast paced. I can't imagine living at that speed. There are also people in your face all the time, therefore lack of personal space and privacy. Businesswise— that world is highly competitive and they can be downright mean. I mean in a way as a celebrity you are also a commodity. It seems just so likely that alcohol and drugs would be a way to cope and keep up. Not to mention the issue of access...
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I believe that alcoholism is a disease, but environmental factors affect it.
It's the same way that diabetes is a disease, but it is affected by your diet.
I also love reading biographies. I think, in the case of the Hollywood types, part of their addiction has to do with money. The people in the headlines don't face the same consequences as we 'normal' people do. For example, Keifer Sutherland, who has a problem with alcohol and has been jailed. It makes very little difference to his job prospects or his income, that he's been in jail. If that was you or me, we would likely have lost our job when we went to jail, and we'd have found that our job prospects were considerably dimmed, when we got out of jail. I think the fact that the rich and famouls can carry on seamlessly with their lives, makes it even more easy for them to fall into addiction.
It's the same way that diabetes is a disease, but it is affected by your diet.
I also love reading biographies. I think, in the case of the Hollywood types, part of their addiction has to do with money. The people in the headlines don't face the same consequences as we 'normal' people do. For example, Keifer Sutherland, who has a problem with alcohol and has been jailed. It makes very little difference to his job prospects or his income, that he's been in jail. If that was you or me, we would likely have lost our job when we went to jail, and we'd have found that our job prospects were considerably dimmed, when we got out of jail. I think the fact that the rich and famouls can carry on seamlessly with their lives, makes it even more easy for them to fall into addiction.
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OzSandy posted a very interesting article today on the nature of addiction on our brains. I'll repost the link for those interested (thanks to OzSandy):
Close to Home - Science: Interview with Steven Hyman
The article is long but there is a part of the interview that really stood out to me:
Moyers: What's the most important thing we're learning about addiction from brain research?
Hyman: Well, one very important insight is the recognition that in vulnerable individuals, the disease of addiction is produced by chronic administration of the drugs themselves. Drugs of abuse appear to commandeer circuits in the brain that are involved in the control of motivation, which means the addicted person's will can be impaired.
Moyers: OK, now we're back to addiction and the brain. So there's solid evidence that alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, and heroin physically change the brain?
Hyman: There is incontrovertible evidence that these drugs physically change the brain. At all levels, beginning with molecular and chemical changes. In many cases we can actually see changes in the structure of synapses and in the shape of cells. Above all, what we're seeing are the kinds of changes in the way nerve cells communicate with each other that would impact our subjective life and our behavior.
Moyers: You mean drugs change not only the physical size and shape of the cell but the psychological operation of the brain as well?
Hyman: Yes. The psychological operation of the brain -- how we feel about ourselves, what we do -- reflects the workings of networks of nerve cells. And these drugs change the way that these networks function. And therefore, they can change our behavior.
I just thought that was very interesting.
Regarding celebrity addictions - I bet that if we did the numbers the ratios of celebrities that are alcoholics/drug addicts is the same for the general population. We just hide better.
Close to Home - Science: Interview with Steven Hyman
The article is long but there is a part of the interview that really stood out to me:
Moyers: What's the most important thing we're learning about addiction from brain research?
Hyman: Well, one very important insight is the recognition that in vulnerable individuals, the disease of addiction is produced by chronic administration of the drugs themselves. Drugs of abuse appear to commandeer circuits in the brain that are involved in the control of motivation, which means the addicted person's will can be impaired.
Moyers: OK, now we're back to addiction and the brain. So there's solid evidence that alcohol, tobacco, cocaine, and heroin physically change the brain?
Hyman: There is incontrovertible evidence that these drugs physically change the brain. At all levels, beginning with molecular and chemical changes. In many cases we can actually see changes in the structure of synapses and in the shape of cells. Above all, what we're seeing are the kinds of changes in the way nerve cells communicate with each other that would impact our subjective life and our behavior.
Moyers: You mean drugs change not only the physical size and shape of the cell but the psychological operation of the brain as well?
Hyman: Yes. The psychological operation of the brain -- how we feel about ourselves, what we do -- reflects the workings of networks of nerve cells. And these drugs change the way that these networks function. And therefore, they can change our behavior.
I just thought that was very interesting.
Regarding celebrity addictions - I bet that if we did the numbers the ratios of celebrities that are alcoholics/drug addicts is the same for the general population. We just hide better.
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good question coolmummy
I believe we alcoholics are alcoholics because of possibly a few things
1-we drank our way into it
2-the way we was raised
3-genetics
4-or any combination of the above 3
but you can bet drinking had something to do with it!
I believe we alcoholics are alcoholics because of possibly a few things
1-we drank our way into it
2-the way we was raised
3-genetics
4-or any combination of the above 3
but you can bet drinking had something to do with it!
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