bval

Well, hey, bro, you seem like a feisty, determined, CONFIDENT enough sort of chap - With your research under your belt I figured you for someone who could take a little ribbing and not go all wobbly on us

So I tell you what mate, you are smart enough to know what I'm getting at here. But I'll spell it out for you, okay?

Comparing 'success rates' of AA with Antabuse therapy is illogical on it's face. The two are designed for two totally different purposes. Antabuse may be useful for getting sober, whether you want it or not, but AA is designed for staying sober, and it's designed for people who want it, not for people who need it.

A much more logical comparison would be this one: Compare the LONG TERM CONTINUOUS ABSTINENCE (not the 'quitting') rates of people who take antabuse for a month, with people who VOLUNTARILY commit themselves to 30-day inpatient detox/rehab programs in which the 12 steps are involved. I'd be willing to bet that if antabuse 'won out' in that comparison, there'd be a WHOLE LOTTA HMO'S out there that would heaving MAJOR sighs of relief, what do you think?

Cause THAT kinda comparison is apples to apples, my friend.

Here's another more logical comparison: Compare the LONG TERM CONTINUOUS ABSTINENCE (not the 'quitting') rates of people who take antabuse for a TIME, then quit taking it after some time period, and DON'T attend AA versus people who take the antabuse, stop, and then DO attend AA regularly.

Again, now THAT would be a stat that really meant something to me.

This being said, rather than allowing yourself OR anyone else to get their 'hope stolen from them', why don't you go ahead and prove me wrong in what I'm getting at.

And believe me, I would like that just as much as you would

GuyinIA

Be skeptical, as I said it won't change the final outcome for my situation. As for your detox program with AA sessions, my last session was the graduation of someone who was being treated inpatient. I also congratulated him and then he said "maybe the 4th times the charm...".

Bottom line, you have to be ready to quit no matter what your treatment options are. Taking antabuse was a non-issue for me as I am truly ready. I am using the antabuse as a crutch for sure, but I will not fall into this path again.

My mother was a heavy smoker for many years. She says on occasion she thinks about how relaxing it would be to have a cigarrette with a cup of coffee. She then remembers how hard it was for her to quit and that prevents her from ever trying it again. I chose the antabuse because I need to remember how difficult the process of getting sober was.

This isn't only for me...my brother has the same problem and he looks up to me. If I can prove to him that I could do it, I'm hoping he will folloiw in my footsteps.

So, bro, I'll take you up on your challenge.

bval

And by the way, for the record, my point was not to spew venom from the AA camp.

In no way shape or form have I EVER, nor will I ever, imply that AA is the only way, or a one-size-fits-all 'solution', or that there are not many other worthy programs (including some people's own custom-tailored programs they make up for themselves).

The point here is that this poster does NOT mention ANY program of recovery other than taking antabuse, and he apparently feels confident that this will be enough for him, just kinda ... breaking the habit. Well I'm here to tell you, I cannot speak for HIM, but I can say that, based on a LOT of my own research, from talking to LOTS of addicts/alcoholics first-hand, FOR MOST PEOPLE, the cure for this disease does not exist in a PILL form.

MOST people don't stay sober that easily, and I don't want anybody that may be impressionable to read this gentleman's 'accounting' of the situation and conclude that they DON'T need a PROGRAM (like he says his DOCTOR agreed that he DOESN'T), that all THEY need to do is kinda 'break the chain' like he thinks he needs. Again, he may be right FOR HIM.

But for a lot of OTHER people, if they were to start thinking like this poster does, that they really DON'T need AA or any other program because after all it's success rate is s*itty?

Well, sorry, you can call me some kinda AA nut if you want, but again, I'll tell you, this has nothing to do with AA and everything to do with this poster (quite inadvertently, I might add, I'm certain he's trying to be helpful) sending a message to people that I think could be harmful.

tanyapmc

Never a dull moment at SR.

WhittenGirl

Hold the boat a second there Mr Bvaljalo (whatever that is) I thought you said you are not an alcoholic, so what do you know about alcoholism? Please just back off on the "know it all stuff"

We are all trying to work on this the best we know how.

Good Night

bval

By the way, Guy, sorry to forget my manners and sort of 'get off on the wrong foot', as they say.

I don't want you to feel unwelcome in any way, being a smartass is just how I express myself sometimes ... errr, most times.

Hey, I'm just a flawed addict like everyone else here.

Except, well, for you of course ...

HA! See, there I go again ... just messing witcha

Welcome, and I honestly do wish you the utmost success. Sounds like you got your head on straight and know what's going to work for you.

Stick around and keep posting ... I'm always interested in how other people's experimental sobriety methods end up working out.

At the very least, I hope I've given you some incentive to prove to that jackass bvaljalo that he doesn't know WHO he's dealing with

GuyinIA

You are an AA nut and you just plain don't get it. Nice message, "Don't Give HOPE". NOBODY knows me better than I do and I KNOW that there are other people out there that reject this program. The REALITY is that millions of people DO NOT get help because of the monopoly on recovery for this type of disease by AA. MY doctor has successfully treated this disease with members of his own family. YOU do NOT understand me and if anyone else has the same insights as Mr. AA, that's fine. Try be supportive, not critical. NOBODY preaches to me - I make my own decisions in life. And NOBODY has all the answers.

There have been people that QUIT drinking all by themselves, without AA and drugs. I chose the drug to help me ensure a weak moment wouldn't turn into a relapse. Now you tell me the benefit of forcing someone to pray to a higher power they don't believe in? I've been through several psych evals and I am otherwise perfectly normal. NO amount of preaching from you will make me believe in something that does not exist for me.

Maybe these forums were a bad idea. It's healthy to talk about this but dealing with people like Mr. AA made me question the program in the first place. I just wanted there to be hope for people out there have have dealt with PEOPLE like Mr. AA here. There are other ways. I will beat this - regardless of what he thinks.


Good night, folks.

RJS

Keep it up and we're gonna make you hold hands.


"Maybe these forums were a bad idea."
If you give up that easy, you never woulda made a good drunk anyway. So-long.

kelsh

Hi GuyinIA,

Welcome. I used Antabuse for the first three months of my Sobriety at my request.
My counselor really didn't think I needed to but I wanted some insurance that I would not try picking up the first drink.

I used alcohol my first few years as a social thing and as life events & catastrophic events piled up in my life I became severly depressed...had taken AD before but chose to self-medicate my depression with alcohol. Then I ended up with two problems to work on.

I was detoxed in a hospital setting for six days and then started going to AA. This is where I truly sobered up. I had a Sponsor and worked the program to the best of my ability. I did many other things to help guarantee my status as a recovering alcoholic & continue to do so. I have 19 years of Sobriety today.

I believe each one of us has our own needs and our own program of recovery but no cures. Once an alcoholic always an alcoholic just as a drug is a drug is a drug. Even if I did have medical problems that alcohol seemed to help...it was not the answer. The medical problems got worse due to the alcohol and then I passed the invisible line of alcoholism at age of 44. I quit drinking the year I turned 48.

By now I was a single mom with a twelve year old daughter with Juvenile Diabetes. I went back to college after I had been sober a year and got a BA Degree in Psychology and went to work for the County Mental Health Program. I progressed in two years to a Geriatric Mental Health Counselor. I worked there until I retired.

It was a fantastic feeling to graduate from college and start a new career when I was 50 years old. Getting sober was what I wanted more than anything else in my life and AA helped me but most of the work I did myself.

I agree that AA is good for some but not all people. I aso agree that it doesn't work very well when someone is forced by the court system to go to AA. But I do feel that any or all exposure to programs of recovery may help someone on down the road when they are ready to get clean or sober or both.

kelsh

bval

Eventually it will become clear to you and to all ... what I am really all about here ...
and begin to give me the benefit of the doubt ... and assume that there is some underlying method or message inherent in my apparent madness ... but until such time as you figure me out ... you're probably going to hate me ... fortunately ... I can live with that ... this is not a popularity contest for me ... as I'm sure you can see.

RJS

It's becoming clear... OMG!! Your Maynard, from Tool?!?
Can I have an autograph?

bval

Good night, GuyInIA.

Nice chatting with you.

I hope you'll at some point go back and re-read what I've posted here, and really think about what I've said, where we are, who all might be reading, how they might react to what you're saying, etc.

And here's a couple more things for you to chew on.

First off, I am as close to an atheist as you are EVER going to meet. I do attend AA/NA meetings pretty regularly, but I don't have a sponsor, and I haven't worked the steps. So, Mr. AA? That's hardly me. And if you actually go back and re-read everything I've said in this light, you should realize that you've jumped to a good number of false conclusions about who I am and why I'm saying what I'm saying. That's not to be critical towards you, and I freely acknowledge that I've done the same thing a million times myself, here and elsewhere.

Secondly, had you said in your original post or anywhere else SOMETHING along the lines of "After I get off the antabuse, my plan is to work XXX program of recovery", we would never have even had this conversation. I don't care if your program was the secular Life-Ring program, or moving to Nepal and becoming a Buddhist monk.

I hope that's enough info, along with everything else I've said, for you to ascertain the point I'm trying to make here.

If you still come to the conclusion that I'm just Mr. AA trying to shove THAT program down everyone's throat, let me know, and we can work from there. I'm not meaning to put you down for your decisions, nor tell you what can and cannot work for YOU.

Good night, I do wish you the very best in your recovery, and hope you stick around sr.com. I think such discussions are 'healthy'

bval

Nope, but thanks.

I love Maynard from Tool

Pinkcuda

I've been drunk my entire adult life. 25-30 years worth. Just as I will not venture into a strange and new city without a map, I will not venture into a strange and new life without someone to show me the way. That is why I choose A.A. Not to deal with Alcohol, but to deal with Sobriety. It's foreign to me and I need help.

GuyinIA

Hey, I usually boast about how I can control my Irish temper but I guess I failed. I apologize for the spouting off. I do care for people very much and I felt alone for the longest time with my options available. It used to make me very angry that a smoker could walk into a doctors office and they would prescribe medication, without counseling, for their addiction. Just like a drinking, once they pick up that cigarrette it starts all over again. Do you see why I'm having troubles here? You dont have to agree, just understand what I'm saying.

I am also aethiest but that isn't the entire drive behind my decision. I didn't focus on the long term as of yet because I choose not to drink, today. Changes in my habits are very much part of my recovery and I'm not relying on the pill to do that for me. The antabuse helps me shut off that voice in my mind telling me to drink...since I can't drink, it's easier for me not to dwell on it. I've already been picking up new hobbies and starting to explore my life being sober. Some AA friends and I are starting time at the gym and outings. Again, they accept my decision and they are very support of me...because the know ME.

This disease is differnet for everyone. I will say flat out that antabuse isn't for everyone. But I know there are people on here that reading this and understand me completely. If you are that person, all I'm saying is not to give up. Fight to get to where you want to be.

With that, it's Saturday and I'm heading out to do some Christmas shopping. Anyone know where I could get my hands on a Nintendo Wii?

whittenboy

Quote from a post by bvaljalo in SUBSTANCE ABUSE thread: I often forget what my sponsor tells me (all the time), which goes something along these lines ...

"Hey, Brett? How about you just ... STFU ... and LISTEN. Because, for all your supposed 'brains', the reality of the situation is ... you don't know S**T, dude. Your BEST thinking is what got you where you are today."

You know what it IS? It's BIG PHARMA and Madison Avenue's fault!?! Yeah, their commercials are brainwashing me! ASK YOUR DOCTOR if <OUR MIRACLE DRUG> is RIGHT for YOU!!!"


I guess being honest with ourselves is most important. Obviously you did not listen to your sponsor .

You do what ever works for you GuyinIA
Good Luck!

Cindi R

I'm from IA, too, Good luck Guy...
Attended NA/AA in the beginning, found the websites and have mainly gotten support online for quite awhile now.
I, too was a ACOA (adult child of an alcoholic)...who found my escape at an early age in alcohol and later in drugs.
I went to the treatment and needed the support of the program to learn how to live sober...
but I found that I didn't subscribe to "every single thing that I learned in AA/NA"...hence I am doing it my own way and it's been working for me...
I haven't done any meth since I went to treatment on 8/15/01, I'm still "clean", only did treatment once...
I was required to do it or lose my job.
I was "sober" until my daughter's 21'st birthday in May of this year...
since then, I've drank a few times (less than 6) on celebratory occasions.
I've also been a smoker and found that quitting was easy with Chantix, so stick to your plan and keep AA in mind...if your "plan" doesn't work out for you...
I can't comment on the statistics...
but if you're an analyst, you know that you can make the numbers say anything you want them to say...
LOL
{hugs}
In AA/NA we give real ones...
Keep coming back!

bval

Well it's a good thing that you agree that being honest with ourselves is MOST important ...

Since I am obviously being just that when I say ...

"I often forget what my sponsor tells me (all the time), which goes something along these lines ..."

Tell you what, WB, you wanna go back in my posts on this thread and explain to me just WHAT IT IS that you (and your wife) are asserting that I know to be the case?

Because the ONLY assertion that I've made here about what *I KNOW* is the fact that MOST PEOPLE need some kind of recovery program to maintain sobriety.

And let's see ... hmm ... I think maybe I learned that by taking my (at the time) sponsor's advice. Which was SPECIFICALLY directed at me when I was in my first 3 days of sobriety, going to my first meeting in years. You see, I failed to stay sober years earlier, primarily because I hadn't listened to people who KNOW MORE THAN ME about the disease and about sobriety.

Now I have over 5 months completely clean and sober. Because I took that advice. I learned. I learned A LOT. Now I'm trying to share it.

You, your wife, and Guy, are free to choose to do things the way you want to ... just like I was free to do the first time I tried to get sober ...

I just know I wished I'd someone had shared with me the importance of listening to people with some sobriety under their belt the first time through myself.

I wish you the best in your goal of staying sober this weekend WB.

GuyinIA

Ya know, bro, you and I are alike in many ways. We are both pationate about what we feel is right. I admit I hate being wrong so I'll do my best not to let it happen.

I will say since I started the antabuse that I have not had one urge to drive to the liquor store at night. Not that I don't think about drinking in general, I have no urge to act on it due to the consequences. I've read it takes up to a year for the chemicals in the brain to return to a pre-alcoholic state so I plan to stay on it at least that long. I look forward to sharing my results and, just so you know my other Iowan friend, I will be getting support...hopefully from you guys online.

I'll try to check in daily..thanks all for input and support. I am beind you all 100%.

bval

I'm happy that your finding the method you've chosen to get sober is working for you.

Like we AA freaks always say: Whatever It Takes.

We're all behind you too, Guy. Keep us posted ...

Tell you what, though, you wanna see if we're *really* alike? Tell me you're casting your vote in the caucus for Edwards