Class of June 2017 Support Thread Part 2
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Northeast, US
Posts: 2,073
I'm attacking day 8, exhausted and anxious, but with a positive attitude. There was a meeting at noon I think but I was so tired I wasn't up until 11. I went too far to the point where my body is kicking my butt as I try to stop. I'm so tired. This usually lifts soon, but I'm always afraid it won't.
I'll check in later.
V
I'll check in later.
V
Member
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 437
Day 13 and folks at work have been chatting about alcohol. It's payday weekend. However, tomorrow is two weeks sober and that for me is big and I don't want to screw it up. The idea of going all the way back to day 1 is enough to put me off.
I've had a few headaches today but still just got on with work and walked the dog.
Planning a big breakfast tomorrow and chilling with some incense and music playing at present.
Hope everyone has a good weekend
I've had a few headaches today but still just got on with work and walked the dog.
Planning a big breakfast tomorrow and chilling with some incense and music playing at present.
Hope everyone has a good weekend
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Posts: 349
Not sure exactly what day but about 2 1/2 weeks. Doing well and don't want
to drink 'cause I've psyched myself into thinking that it will make me literally
feel sick. So now my business problems are making me feel sick, but at least
I am not hung over.
BUT: went for a guy's overnight the other night, and it was a repeat of so
many times going to a drinking event with all the "normal drinkers" - but
when you are not drinking you realize they are not "normal" at all - they
are drunks. Just not as drunk as you used to be. But the conversations
can be tiresome, boring, and even abusive. So I actually left in the morning
before anyone could talk about pouring Bloody Mary's. I mean these
people I have been friends with since my 20's - and are a lot of fun - but
now, I have to say - we are all in our 50's now - they are pretty much ALL
alcoholics - they just aren't admitting it. But if your drinking makes you
crude, inconsiderate, abusive, stupid, harsh, and irritating - seems like
that would qualify them as some kind of alcoholic, no? At least my GF
is moderating now, so our relationship is recovering - as long as there
aren't a bunch of other drinkers around to egg her on. But SHE is not
an ALCOHOLIC. Just me. Ha ha ha . . . I think maybe the progression
of this problem with alcoholic seems to hit everyone pretty hard in their
50's - but they are all in denial because it is such a built-in habit.
Anyway, thanks for letting me rant!
to drink 'cause I've psyched myself into thinking that it will make me literally
feel sick. So now my business problems are making me feel sick, but at least
I am not hung over.
BUT: went for a guy's overnight the other night, and it was a repeat of so
many times going to a drinking event with all the "normal drinkers" - but
when you are not drinking you realize they are not "normal" at all - they
are drunks. Just not as drunk as you used to be. But the conversations
can be tiresome, boring, and even abusive. So I actually left in the morning
before anyone could talk about pouring Bloody Mary's. I mean these
people I have been friends with since my 20's - and are a lot of fun - but
now, I have to say - we are all in our 50's now - they are pretty much ALL
alcoholics - they just aren't admitting it. But if your drinking makes you
crude, inconsiderate, abusive, stupid, harsh, and irritating - seems like
that would qualify them as some kind of alcoholic, no? At least my GF
is moderating now, so our relationship is recovering - as long as there
aren't a bunch of other drinkers around to egg her on. But SHE is not
an ALCOHOLIC. Just me. Ha ha ha . . . I think maybe the progression
of this problem with alcoholic seems to hit everyone pretty hard in their
50's - but they are all in denial because it is such a built-in habit.
Anyway, thanks for letting me rant!
Re-Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,909
Rant away, blondsober! That's one of the things these forums are here for--don't let that stuff fester.
Wishing you and everyone else here a safe and sober Friday night! If you're thinking of drinking, get in here and ask for help. You're not in this alone and a drink is not the answer. It's part of the problem.
Wishing you and everyone else here a safe and sober Friday night! If you're thinking of drinking, get in here and ask for help. You're not in this alone and a drink is not the answer. It's part of the problem.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Northeast, US
Posts: 2,073
Blondsober, I enjoyed the rant. It's all true. When you come at this you realize you're going to need new friends, many times. If you're on here you are fed up with feeling like crap, and all of the negatives that go with it. If you stick with it, you'll find the depth of feelings and your ability to truly experience things increases massively. Your ability to really laugh and enjoy something. The feeling of sand between your toes on the beach (previously numbed by booze) is like being a kid again.
Keep ranting. I rant myself sometimes.
BTW - Declaring a victory over day 8 as things stand right now at 4:30. I do need to go out to get some food though.
V
Keep ranting. I rant myself sometimes.
BTW - Declaring a victory over day 8 as things stand right now at 4:30. I do need to go out to get some food though.
V
Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Alabama
Posts: 1,285
Almost drank today. Worked hard, a buddy asked me to join a gym so I did. Starting in a week or so. So what did my AV say, " Good job. That's a healthy choice. How about a drink now since your gonna be too busy being sober and exercising from now on to have time? You've done good the last 9 days. You feel good. Its just one night and you can get back to it tomorrow."
Lol. Diabolical. Had my buddy got off work earlier I'd be there right now. Luckily I had about 10 minutes to think about it, pray about it, and come to my senses. Grabbed some food now chillin at the house...RELIEVED.
Headed to the beach this weekend to parents house. They don't drink and there's no temptation there. Gonna spend the 4 days relaxing poolside reading and thinking about tools and plans to stay focused and sober when I return. Have a great 4th people and thank you!
Lol. Diabolical. Had my buddy got off work earlier I'd be there right now. Luckily I had about 10 minutes to think about it, pray about it, and come to my senses. Grabbed some food now chillin at the house...RELIEVED.
Headed to the beach this weekend to parents house. They don't drink and there's no temptation there. Gonna spend the 4 days relaxing poolside reading and thinking about tools and plans to stay focused and sober when I return. Have a great 4th people and thank you!
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Northeast, US
Posts: 2,073
OfftheMast, good battle and victory. You're not missing a thing.
I went to Whole Foods and got some salad stuff and chicken sausage. Seared up thx sausage in a cast iron pan. Red cabbage, yellow pepper, cucumber, broccoli and the sausage coming out soon. I ate like this for 100 days sober last year and lost 44 pounds. 194 to 150. I'm 5'7". I had real abs. I'm only 10 pounds bigger now.
So I made it through day 8. I'd like to get in the gym soon. I need the energy to come back. In the morning there is a good meeting at 10am or the downtown gym which is empty on Saturdays but only open until 1. So it's one or the other. Maybe gym and see what I can do. That's if I can get up.
Vipe
I went to Whole Foods and got some salad stuff and chicken sausage. Seared up thx sausage in a cast iron pan. Red cabbage, yellow pepper, cucumber, broccoli and the sausage coming out soon. I ate like this for 100 days sober last year and lost 44 pounds. 194 to 150. I'm 5'7". I had real abs. I'm only 10 pounds bigger now.
So I made it through day 8. I'd like to get in the gym soon. I need the energy to come back. In the morning there is a good meeting at 10am or the downtown gym which is empty on Saturdays but only open until 1. So it's one or the other. Maybe gym and see what I can do. That's if I can get up.
Vipe
Administrator
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 211,444
I meant to prepare you guys a little but time got away from me.
Every end of the moth, the current 'Month of ' thread moves to the Daily Support forum so that a new monthly thread can take its place in Newcomers forum.
Now that the July thread is up and running, this is your new home.
Hope you like it - and Congrats on your Graduation
D
Every end of the moth, the current 'Month of ' thread moves to the Daily Support forum so that a new monthly thread can take its place in Newcomers forum.
Now that the July thread is up and running, this is your new home.
Hope you like it - and Congrats on your Graduation
D
Re-Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 7,909
Congratulations on graduating to the big boy forum, Junebugs! Just because this thread has moved doesn't mean you can't keep posting away--my own chatterbox class of March 2016 is still going strong on part 53 right now. I highly encourage you to take a look at and drop in some of the other classes here when you get a chance--it's amazing the amount of support to be found in these forums.
Stick together, ask for help, help others, and don't take that first drink no matter what!
Stick together, ask for help, help others, and don't take that first drink no matter what!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,031
Originally Posted by Dee74 
I meant to prepare you guys a little but time got away from me.
Every end of the moth, the current 'Month of ' thread moves to the Daily Support forum so that a new monthly thread can take its place in Newcomers forum.
Now that the July thread is up and running, this is your new home.
Hope you like it - and Congrats on your Graduation
D
Every end of the moth, the current 'Month of ' thread moves to the Daily Support forum so that a new monthly thread can take its place in Newcomers forum.
Now that the July thread is up and running, this is your new home.
Hope you like it - and Congrats on your Graduation
D
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,031
Originally Posted by Jenni37
Hello everyone,
I'm just finishing up day 25 of sobriety 🎉 I'm feeling great. I have been fortunate not to struggle with cravings to much. I'm a binge drinker .. not a daily drinker so I think that makes the day to day a bit easier. I have an annual "girls" trip coming up next week. I will be 32 day sober when we go. I'm feeling pretty strong and positive about going but I realize there will be many triggers for meon this trip. Everyone in this group will be drinking. I did share with my 2 very best friends that I'm choosing not to drink any longer since I don't feel that I can control the amount of alcohol I consume. They understand because they have seen me drunk on plenty of occasions and listened to me try to forgive myself from the feelings of shame, disappointment,disgust and embarrassment. I'm planning to share with all of the ladies before the trip that I won't be drinking so it is not the topic of conversation on the trip. They will know my plan and I will have answered the questions prior to us going. There is one friend who I think will struggle a bit with me not drinking. She drinks way to much herself and we have always shared our time together drinking.. in excess. Any advice on this situation? I know ultimately everyone will be supportive but I do think I will get a bit of flak and told things like" come on... just have a few" .... or "set a limit and stop". I have just come to understand that that is the entire problem. Once I take the first drink.... I will no longer adhere to my " limit". I will drink to get drunk and I'm just done with being that way! I have enough days sober now that I feel pretty strong! I'm feeling so much better mentally not drinking. I have such a sense of accomplishment and feel so present and clear. I would love any advice or suggestions about my upcoming trip. Thank goodness I have SR to come to daily.. to listen and to share. I feel like I'm the process of truly learning to be a different person... a new and improved person! Thank you all for listening
thanks
I'm just finishing up day 25 of sobriety 🎉 I'm feeling great. I have been fortunate not to struggle with cravings to much. I'm a binge drinker .. not a daily drinker so I think that makes the day to day a bit easier. I have an annual "girls" trip coming up next week. I will be 32 day sober when we go. I'm feeling pretty strong and positive about going but I realize there will be many triggers for meon this trip. Everyone in this group will be drinking. I did share with my 2 very best friends that I'm choosing not to drink any longer since I don't feel that I can control the amount of alcohol I consume. They understand because they have seen me drunk on plenty of occasions and listened to me try to forgive myself from the feelings of shame, disappointment,disgust and embarrassment. I'm planning to share with all of the ladies before the trip that I won't be drinking so it is not the topic of conversation on the trip. They will know my plan and I will have answered the questions prior to us going. There is one friend who I think will struggle a bit with me not drinking. She drinks way to much herself and we have always shared our time together drinking.. in excess. Any advice on this situation? I know ultimately everyone will be supportive but I do think I will get a bit of flak and told things like" come on... just have a few" .... or "set a limit and stop". I have just come to understand that that is the entire problem. Once I take the first drink.... I will no longer adhere to my " limit". I will drink to get drunk and I'm just done with being that way! I have enough days sober now that I feel pretty strong! I'm feeling so much better mentally not drinking. I have such a sense of accomplishment and feel so present and clear. I would love any advice or suggestions about my upcoming trip. Thank goodness I have SR to come to daily.. to listen and to share. I feel like I'm the process of truly learning to be a different person... a new and improved person! Thank you all for listening
thanksThe only thing I can think of for your trip is to play the conversations in your head over and over again, with you declining the drink. Can you carry around a bottle of water, or my favorite is club soda, cranberry juice and lime. Not only does it look like a drink, I just love the taste of the cranberry and lime together. Does the trick for me! I hope others have some better suggestions for you. You can do this, Jenni, I just know you can!!!!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,031
Originally Posted by blondsober
Not sure exactly what day but about 2 1/2 weeks. Doing well and don't want
to drink 'cause I've psyched myself into thinking that it will make me literally
feel sick. So now my business problems are making me feel sick, but at least
I am not hung over.
BUT: went for a guy's overnight the other night, and it was a repeat of so
many times going to a drinking event with all the "normal drinkers" - but
when you are not drinking you realize they are not "normal" at all - they
are drunks. Just not as drunk as you used to be. But the conversations
can be tiresome, boring, and even abusive. So I actually left in the morning
before anyone could talk about pouring Bloody Mary's. I mean these
people I have been friends with since my 20's - and are a lot of fun - but
now, I have to say - we are all in our 50's now - they are pretty much ALL
alcoholics - they just aren't admitting it. But if your drinking makes you
crude, inconsiderate, abusive, stupid, harsh, and irritating - seems like
that would qualify them as some kind of alcoholic, no? At least my GF
is moderating now, so our relationship is recovering - as long as there
aren't a bunch of other drinkers around to egg her on. But SHE is not
an ALCOHOLIC. Just me. Ha ha ha . . . I think maybe the progression
of this problem with alcoholic seems to hit everyone pretty hard in their
50's - but they are all in denial because it is such a built-in habit.
Anyway, thanks for letting me rant!
to drink 'cause I've psyched myself into thinking that it will make me literally
feel sick. So now my business problems are making me feel sick, but at least
I am not hung over.
BUT: went for a guy's overnight the other night, and it was a repeat of so
many times going to a drinking event with all the "normal drinkers" - but
when you are not drinking you realize they are not "normal" at all - they
are drunks. Just not as drunk as you used to be. But the conversations
can be tiresome, boring, and even abusive. So I actually left in the morning
before anyone could talk about pouring Bloody Mary's. I mean these
people I have been friends with since my 20's - and are a lot of fun - but
now, I have to say - we are all in our 50's now - they are pretty much ALL
alcoholics - they just aren't admitting it. But if your drinking makes you
crude, inconsiderate, abusive, stupid, harsh, and irritating - seems like
that would qualify them as some kind of alcoholic, no? At least my GF
is moderating now, so our relationship is recovering - as long as there
aren't a bunch of other drinkers around to egg her on. But SHE is not
an ALCOHOLIC. Just me. Ha ha ha . . . I think maybe the progression
of this problem with alcoholic seems to hit everyone pretty hard in their
50's - but they are all in denial because it is such a built-in habit.
Anyway, thanks for letting me rant!
I do agree with you that this alcoholism thing does hit hard in our 50's. I know I don't want to go into my 60's being a drinker. I want to enjoy life and my grandchildren, clean and sober.
My neighbor is my age and quit drinking a few years ago and is now a pot head. He brags about not drinking but fails to mention his pot habit. Again, his buddies all do it, plus they drink, just like the high school days.
Oh, well, at least we can see it and will stay strong to not go back there.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,031
Originally Posted by Viperidae
OfftheMast, good battle and victory. You're not missing a thing.
I went to Whole Foods and got some salad stuff and chicken sausage. Seared up thx sausage in a cast iron pan. Red cabbage, yellow pepper, cucumber, broccoli and the sausage coming out soon. I ate like this for 100 days sober last year and lost 44 pounds. 194 to 150. I'm 5'7". I had real abs. I'm only 10 pounds bigger now.
So I made it through day 8. I'd like to get in the gym soon. I need the energy to come back. In the morning there is a good meeting at 10am or the downtown gym which is empty on Saturdays but only open until 1. So it's one or the other. Maybe gym and see what I can do. That's if I can get up.
Vipe
I went to Whole Foods and got some salad stuff and chicken sausage. Seared up thx sausage in a cast iron pan. Red cabbage, yellow pepper, cucumber, broccoli and the sausage coming out soon. I ate like this for 100 days sober last year and lost 44 pounds. 194 to 150. I'm 5'7". I had real abs. I'm only 10 pounds bigger now.
So I made it through day 8. I'd like to get in the gym soon. I need the energy to come back. In the morning there is a good meeting at 10am or the downtown gym which is empty on Saturdays but only open until 1. So it's one or the other. Maybe gym and see what I can do. That's if I can get up.
Vipe
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,031
Originally Posted by Offthemast
Almost drank today.
Headed to the beach this weekend to parents house. They don't drink and there's no temptation there. Gonna spend the 4 days relaxing poolside reading and thinking about tools and plans to stay focused and sober when I return. Have a great 4th people and thank you!
Headed to the beach this weekend to parents house. They don't drink and there's no temptation there. Gonna spend the 4 days relaxing poolside reading and thinking about tools and plans to stay focused and sober when I return. Have a great 4th people and thank you!
Have fun this weekend, Offthemast :-)
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,031
Originally Posted by Zombie79
Day 13 and folks at work have been chatting about alcohol. It's payday weekend. However, tomorrow is two weeks sober and that for me is big and I don't want to screw it up. The idea of going all the way back to day 1 is enough to put me off.
I've had a few headaches today but still just got on with work and walked the dog.
Planning a big breakfast tomorrow and chilling with some incense and music playing at present.
Hope everyone has a good weekend
I've had a few headaches today but still just got on with work and walked the dog.
Planning a big breakfast tomorrow and chilling with some incense and music playing at present.
Hope everyone has a good weekend
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,031
Originally Posted by Viperidae
I'm attacking day 8, exhausted and anxious, but with a positive attitude. There was a meeting at noon I think but I was so tired I wasn't up until 11. I went too far to the point where my body is kicking my butt as I try to stop. I'm so tired. This usually lifts soon, but I'm always afraid it won't.
I'll check in later.
V
I'll check in later.
V
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,031
Day 13 here and looking forward to this weekend. I won't be going into the office until next Thursday so I plan on getting some organizing and decluttering done in my house. I'm pretty minimal, but I can always find things to get rid of.
So, I'm not sure how many times I've been through day 1, (I joined in 2015) but for some reason, something kicked in and I'm finding it absolutely normal to not drink.
Last night, my neighbor came by to tell me that her husband ( the pot smoker) lost his job. He does mortgages, but never goes into the office and rarely leaves his house. I'm gussing he was fired. Anyway as she was leaving, she said she was going home to dring a beer and asked me if I wanted to join her. I just said, "no thanks, goodnight" and bam, it was done. I didn't even give it a split second thought. Phew.
I spent all day yesterday with my granddaughter...shopping...for 5 hours...and I was exhausted last night. And feeling worn out today. I'm looking forward to the long weekend ahead and my birthday on Monday. A new decade to enjoy, sober and healthy.
How is everyone spending this weekend? How will you stay away from drinking?
I just keep playing conversations in my head, saying "no thank you". I 've not had anyone pressure me, so that's good.
Well, I better get moving. I slept in today and now 1/2 the day is over! I'll check in later.
Hugs to all you, my classmates :-)
So, I'm not sure how many times I've been through day 1, (I joined in 2015) but for some reason, something kicked in and I'm finding it absolutely normal to not drink.
Last night, my neighbor came by to tell me that her husband ( the pot smoker) lost his job. He does mortgages, but never goes into the office and rarely leaves his house. I'm gussing he was fired. Anyway as she was leaving, she said she was going home to dring a beer and asked me if I wanted to join her. I just said, "no thanks, goodnight" and bam, it was done. I didn't even give it a split second thought. Phew.
I spent all day yesterday with my granddaughter...shopping...for 5 hours...and I was exhausted last night. And feeling worn out today. I'm looking forward to the long weekend ahead and my birthday on Monday. A new decade to enjoy, sober and healthy.
How is everyone spending this weekend? How will you stay away from drinking?
I just keep playing conversations in my head, saying "no thank you". I 've not had anyone pressure me, so that's good.
Well, I better get moving. I slept in today and now 1/2 the day is over! I'll check in later.
Hugs to all you, my classmates :-)
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Northeast, US
Posts: 2,073
Day 9 after breakfast. I did not find any energy. I'm wiped out. I may end up in bed again. I'm not what's causing this. I was chronically ill and when I hit stress the exhaustion of it comes right back on. Could last 3 days, could be 2 months. I think if I take care of my myself this will pass.
My legs muscles and tendons are extremely tight and knotted. I know that's from quitting booze. So obviously my body is still in shock.
Tomorrow day 10.
V
My legs muscles and tendons are extremely tight and knotted. I know that's from quitting booze. So obviously my body is still in shock.
Tomorrow day 10.
V
Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 39
Thank you Optimist,
Yes, I'm taking all my own drinks so I will have that covered. I called another girlfriend that will be on this trip last night to let he know I will NOT be drinking on this trip. I was pleasantly surprised how supportive she was. It's not that I don't think my friends will support me in sobriety, I just know they aren't use to me not drinking and that will be different for them. I'm excited about my trip now! Im not feeling nervous or tempted to drink. I realize that could change once I'm there and I do have my gaurd up in case. I'm actually looking forward to being sober and sitting back and observing the behavior that goes along with drinking. It's not that I'm judging, its truly not, it's just I'm feel so happy and free now that I'm not drinking and I really, really am getting the fact that I get absolutely NOTHING out of drinking alcohol but anxiety, dread, disgusted, embarrassment, humiliation, sadness, feeling of failure... etc. I guess I'm looking forward to experiencing this trip through a new perspective, through my newly clear sober eyes. I feel much better not drinking!!! A huge part of my fear of not drinking was that I would not be able to have fun at parties, events, get together' s and what I'm finding is that I'm having SO much more fun! I didn't think would happen. I was afraid I would feel left out and like an outcast. Taking control of my drinking has given me a huge feeling of strength and power that I didn't know I had. I'm present to truly enjoy myself now. When I was drinking I would just be thinking about pouring my next drink, even if I was in the middle of a conversation. It occupied so much of my head space. I have time to slow that down now, to enjoy the present moment, completely, sincerely, authenticly... I feel like a switch has flipped for me mentally. I know I'm not out of the woods, I know temptations can and will arise for me but , I feel like I'm ready to feel those temptations and let them come and go way. I know they won't last.... and I know for a fact sobriety feels SO much better than drinking ever made me feel. Thank you for your response. Coming here is what is giving me strength and resolve, it is the love and support and the understanding and compassion here. So grateful to all of you. We can do this... as a matter of fact... we are doing this!!!!
Yes, I'm taking all my own drinks so I will have that covered. I called another girlfriend that will be on this trip last night to let he know I will NOT be drinking on this trip. I was pleasantly surprised how supportive she was. It's not that I don't think my friends will support me in sobriety, I just know they aren't use to me not drinking and that will be different for them. I'm excited about my trip now! Im not feeling nervous or tempted to drink. I realize that could change once I'm there and I do have my gaurd up in case. I'm actually looking forward to being sober and sitting back and observing the behavior that goes along with drinking. It's not that I'm judging, its truly not, it's just I'm feel so happy and free now that I'm not drinking and I really, really am getting the fact that I get absolutely NOTHING out of drinking alcohol but anxiety, dread, disgusted, embarrassment, humiliation, sadness, feeling of failure... etc. I guess I'm looking forward to experiencing this trip through a new perspective, through my newly clear sober eyes. I feel much better not drinking!!! A huge part of my fear of not drinking was that I would not be able to have fun at parties, events, get together' s and what I'm finding is that I'm having SO much more fun! I didn't think would happen. I was afraid I would feel left out and like an outcast. Taking control of my drinking has given me a huge feeling of strength and power that I didn't know I had. I'm present to truly enjoy myself now. When I was drinking I would just be thinking about pouring my next drink, even if I was in the middle of a conversation. It occupied so much of my head space. I have time to slow that down now, to enjoy the present moment, completely, sincerely, authenticly... I feel like a switch has flipped for me mentally. I know I'm not out of the woods, I know temptations can and will arise for me but , I feel like I'm ready to feel those temptations and let them come and go way. I know they won't last.... and I know for a fact sobriety feels SO much better than drinking ever made me feel. Thank you for your response. Coming here is what is giving me strength and resolve, it is the love and support and the understanding and compassion here. So grateful to all of you. We can do this... as a matter of fact... we are doing this!!!!
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