joinedintime

My wife and I both think that she's bipolar, possibly rapid cycling. Either way, she seems to fit the description of at least one "flavor" of bipolar from the books and websites we've read. How do I encourage her to get help when she doesn't seem to want to talk to professionals?

We're having huge troubles in our marriage, sometimes going days with little constructive communication so it's a real challenge getting anything across to her. Much of the time it's like I'm trying to reason with a freshman in high school.

Thankfully I'm sober now. Approaching 150 days, going strong. Sometimes I think my sobriety is eating at her. It's like when I was "broken" she felt better about herself in some twisted way.

Everything is pretty twisted actually.

Obviously there is a lot more to this what I've said here.

I don't know if I'm even close to asking the right questions, or giving the right background but I've been able to get great support here at SR so I thought I should give this topic a try.

I don't know how much more of this I can take. It's been really bad for about 16 months. I'm sure I enabled much of her behavior when I was drunk and now I'm seeing that was the case.

What are the odds of someone that has Bipolar being afraid of being diagnosed - except for self diagnosis? afraid of getting better? afraid of not getting better? wanting to be the victim? (that last one is a pattern)

Spiritual Seeker

There are great meds available that make a considerable difference in quality of life for those that suffer from bipolar. It might be time for your wife to hear what your bottom line is with her recovery.

Kudos to you for getting sober. Hopefully, you are working a program ea. day to maintain it..

historyteach

First, kudos on your sobriety!
That's a wonderful gift for her and for yourself!
Keep up the good work!

Here are two great sites for you and your wife to look at:
Bipolar II, Mood Swings without Mania; Brain Tours; Stress and Depression; Hormones and Mood; and more...
and
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-ny-times.html
The first one has some self help diagnostic tools that you can print out and bring to your doctor. But, please be aware. *Only* a doctor can diagnose her. The tools give you and her a reason to see a doctor only, and discuss the possiblity of the diagnoses. Because bipolar condition is very difficult to diagnose.

It may be that your wife is having a hard time adjusting to the new you. And yes, she *may* be playing the "victim" role. But codependents are very sick people too. So she may not be bipolar. Here, on the next post, are some characteristics of codependent people. See if this makes any sense to you and your wife.

Shalom!

historyteach

What is Codependency?

These patterns and characteristics are offered as a tool to aid in self evaluation. They may be particularly helpful to newcomers as they begin to understand codependency and may aid those who have been in recovery a while determining what traits still need attention and transformation.

Denial Patterns:

I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling.
I minimize, alter, or deny how I truly feel.
I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others.

Low Self Esteem Patterns:

I have difficulty making decisions.
I judge everything I think, say, or do harshly, as never "good enough."
I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts.
I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires.
I value other's approval of my thinking, feelings, and behaviors over my own.
I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person.

Compliance Patterns:

I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger.
I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same.
I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long.
I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am often afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own.
I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want.
I accept sex when I want love.

Control Patterns:

I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves.
I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel.
I become resentful when others will not let me help them.
I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked.
I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about.
I use sex to gain approval and acceptance.
I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others.

Characteristics of Codependent People

We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. This in turn enabled us not to look too closely at our faults.
We "stuff" our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts too much.
We are isolated from and afraid of people and authority figures.
We have become approval seekers and have lost our identity in the process.
We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism.
We live from the viewpoint of victims and are attacked by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
We judge ourselves harshly and have a low sense of self esteem.
We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment. We will do anything to hold onto a relationship in order to not experience painful abandonment feelings which we received from living with people who were never there emotionally for us.
We experience guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
We confuse love and pity and tend to "love" people we can pity and rescue.
We have either become chemically dependent, married one or both, or found another compulsive personality, such a workaholic to fulfill our own compulsive needs.
We have become addicted to excitement.
We are reactors in life rather than actors.

Signs and Symptoms of Codependency

Codependency involves a habitual system of thinking, feeling, and behaving toward ourselves and others that can cause pain. Codependent behaviors or habits are self-destructive.

We frequently react to people who are destroying themselves; we react by learning to destroy ourselves. These habits can lead us into, or keep us in, destructive relationships that don't work. These behaviors can sabotage relationships that may otherwise have worked. These behaviors can prevent us from finding peace and happiness with the most important person in our lives... ourselves. These behaviors belong to the only person we can change.. ourselves. These are our problems.

The following are characteristics of codependent persons: (We started to do these things out of necessity to protect ourselves and meet our needs.)

CareTaking

Codependents may:

Think and feel responsible for other people---for other people's feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.
Feel anxiety, pity, and guilt when other people have a problem.
Feel compelled - almost forced - to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.
Feel angry when their help isn't effective.
Anticipate other people's needs.
Wonder why others don't do the same for them.
Don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves.
Not knowing what they want and need, or if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important.
Try to please others instead of themselves.
Find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others rather than injustices done to themselves.
Feel safest when giving.
Feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them.
Feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them.
Find themselves attracted to needy people.
Find needy people attracted to them.
Feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help.
Abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else.
Overcommit themselves.
Feel harried and pressured.
Believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them.
Blame others for the spot the codependents are in.
Say other people make the codependents feel the way they do.
Believe other people are making them crazy.
Feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used.
Find other people become impatient or angry with them for all of the preceding characteristics.

Low Self Worth

Codependents tend to:

Come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families.
Deny their family was troubled, repressed or dysfunctional.
Blame themselves for everything.
Pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave.
Get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indigent when others blame and criticize the codependents -- something codependents regularly do to themselves.
Reject compliments or praise.
Get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation).
Feel different from the rest of the world.
Think they're not quite good enough.
Feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves.
Fear rejection.
Take things personally.
Have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse,neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism.
Feel like victims.
Tell themselves they can't do anything right.
Be afraid of making mistakes.
Wonder why they have a tough time making decisions.
Have a lot of "shoulds".
Feel a lot of guilt.
Feel ashamed of who they are.
Think their lives are not worth living.
Try to help other people live their lives instead.
Get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others.
Get strong feelings of low self-worth - embarrassment, failure, etc...from other people's failures and problems.
Wish good things would happen to them.
Believe good things never will happen.
Believe they don't deserve good things and happiness.
Wish others would like and love them.
Believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them.
Try to prove they're good enough for other people.
Settle for being needed

Repression

Many Codependents:

Push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt.
Become afraid to let themselves be who they are.
Appear rigid and controlled.

Obsession

Codependents tend to:

Feel terribly anxious about problems and people.
Worry about the silliest things.
Think and talk a lot about other people.
Lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior.
Worry.
Never Find answers.
Check on people.
Try to catch people in acts of misbehavior.
Feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems.
Abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something.
Focus all their energy on other people and problems.
Wonder why they never have any energy.
Wonder why they can't get things done.

Controlling

Many codependents:

Have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment.
Become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally.
Don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control.
Think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave.
Try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination.
Eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger.
Get frustrated and angry.
Feel controlled by events and people.

Denial

Codependents tend to:

Ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening.
Pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are.
Tell themselves things will be better tomorrow.
Stay busy so they don't have to think about things.
Get confused.
Get depressed or sick.
Go to doctors and get tranquilizers.
Become workaholics.
Spend money compulsively.
Overeat.
Pretend those things aren't happening either.
Watch problems get worse.
Believe lies.
Lie to themselves.
Wonder why they feel like they're going crazy.

Dependency

Many codependents:

Don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves.
Look for happiness outside themselves.
Latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness.
Feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think proves their happiness.
Didn't feel love and approval from their parents.
Don't love themselves.
Believe other people can't or don't love them.
Desperately seek love and approval.
Often seek love from people incapable of loving.
Believe other people are never there for them.
Equate love with pain.
Feel they need people more than they want them.
Try to prove they're good enough to be loved.
Don't take time to see if other people are good for them.
Worry whether other people love or like them.
Don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people.
Center their lives around other people.
Look for relationships to provide all their good feelings.
Lost interest in their own lives when they love.
Worry other people will leave them.
Don't believe they can take care of themselves.
Stay in relationships that don't work.
Tolerate abuse to keep people loving them.
Feel trapped in relationships.
Wonder if they will ever find love.

Poor Communication

Codependents frequently:

Blame.
Threaten.
Coerce.
Beg.
Bribe.
Advise.
Don't say what they mean.
Don't mean what they say.
Don't know what they mean.
Don't take themselves seriously.
Think other people don't take the codependents seriously.
Take themselves too seriously.
Ask for what they want and need indirectly - sighing, for example.
Find it difficult to get to the point.
Aren't sure what the point is.
Gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect.
Try to say what they think will please people.
Try to say what they think will provoke people.
Try to say what they hop will make people do what they want them to do.
Eliminate the word NO from their vocabulary.
Talk too much.
Talk about other people.
Avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts.
Say everything is their fault.
Say nothing is their fault.
Believe their opinions don't matter.
Want to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions.
Lie to protect and cover up for people they love.
Have a difficult time asserting their rights.
Have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately.
Think most of what they have to say is unimportant.
Begin to talk in Cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways.
Apologize for bothering people.

Weak Boundaries

Codependents frequently:

Say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
Gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do.
Let others hurt them.
Keep letting others hurt them.
Wonder why they hurt so badly.
Complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
Finally get angry.
Become totally intolerant.

Lack of Trust

Codependents:

Don't trust themselves.
Don't trust their feelings.
Don't trust their decisions.
Don't trust other people.
Try to trust untrustworthy people.
Think God has abandoned them.
Lose faith and trust in God.

Anger

Many Codependents:

Feel very scared, hurt, and angry.
Live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry.
Are afraid of their own anger.
Are frightened of other people's anger.
Think people will go away if anger enters the picture.
Feel controlled by other people's anger.
Repress their angry feelings.
Think other people make them feel angry.
Are afraid to make other people feel anger.
Cry a lot, get depressed, overact, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts.
Punish other people for making the codependents angry.
Have been shamed for feeling angry.
Place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry.
Feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness.
Feel safer with their anger than hurt feelings.
Wonder if they'll ever not be angry.

Sex Problems

Some codependents:

Are caretakers in the bedroom.
Have sex when they don't want to.
Have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved.
Try to have sex when they're angry or hurt.
Refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner.
Are afraid of losing control.
Have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed.
Withdraw emotionally from their partner.
Feel sexual revulsion toward their partner.
Don't talk about it.
Force themselves to have sex, anyway.
Reduce sex to a technical act.
Wonder why they don't enjoy sex.
Lose interest in sex.
Make up reasons to abstain.
Wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the codependent's feelings.
Have strong sexual fantasies about other people.
Consider or have an extramarital affair.

Miscellaneous

Codependents tend to:

Be extremely responsible.
Be extremely irresponsible.
Become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice.
Find it difficult to feel close to people.
Find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous.
Have an overall passive response to codependency - crying, hurt, helplessness.
Have an overall aggressive response to codependency - violence, anger, dominance.
Combine passive and aggressive responses.
Vacillate in decisions and emotions.
Laugh when they feel like crying.
Stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts.
Be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems.
Be confused about the nature of the problem.
Cover up, lie, and protect the problem.
Not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough.
Wonder why the problem doesn't go away.

Progressive

In the later stages of codependency, codependents may:

Feel lethargic.
Feel depressed.
Become withdrawn and isolated.
Experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure.
Abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities.
Feel hopeless.
Begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in.
Think about suicide.
Become violent.
Become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill.
Experience an eating disorder (over - or under eating).
Become addicted to alcohol or other drugs

Shalom!

joinedintime

Thanks for the response.

She went to our general family doctor back in June and essentially said "remember that anti-depressant you had me on for a while a few years ago? I think I need it again" So she's on Effexor.

She didn't want to tell the doctor that she thought she was bipolar. I'll have to come back later to tell the second half of this part.

historyteach, thanks to you too. I see why you're using historyteach as a name that's the longest post I've ever seen here, and I come her a lot! Not complaining. I'll go over it in detail later. My counselor hit me with that topic too.

Jrock75

So you want your wife to get diagnosed and put on legal psychotropic drugs that cause physical and emotional dependance?? I would try some kind of family counseling/therapy 1st. Unless you want a spouse dependant on a miracle pill like Zoloft(pfft). Addiction is addiction wheather its prescribed or not.

historyteach

Let's remember what the OP says.
He's reaching out for experience, strenght and hope that others have, in concern about his wife.
That's what we do here; we give and get support by sharing our ESH.

We do *not* shoot our wounded.
Everyone is welcome to share their own ESH.

This is not the place to point fingers. Or to make accusations.
We give our support to the fellow travelors, or we get support when we need it.
That's what SR is all about.
Thank you all for remembering that.

Shalom!

joinedintime

historyteach, I don't want it to seem like I don't appreciate your words, because I do. Thank you.

I do want to address Jrock75's points though, because I've had these same thoughts over time.



I'd like her to get diagnosed first. Until we really know her diagnosis it's hard to say what, if any, drugs might be good or not. From everything I've read...if the diagnosis turns out to be any type of bipolar they will think they should give her drugs. As it is now, she's getting effexor without a real diagnosis. Plus she has pain (Vicodin) and muscle relaxer (Soma) 'scipts too for severe back pain. Plus she smokes pot all day and occasionally gets drunk.

The family counseling or any kind of counseling suggestion is great. However, it's like pulling teeth to get her to do that just like it's pulling teeth to get her to a doctor.
Any suggestions on that would be welcome.

I'd much rather have her in counseling, us in marital counseling, and her off all drugs, but at this point I'd settle for a pro overseeing her mix of drugs. I'd take that in a heartbeat over the current situation.

Freedom1990

It's difficult to convince someone to get counseling if they really don't want it. I wish I had an easy answer for you.

It's also impossible to accurately diagnose something like bipolar when you have someone on a cocktail of med, smoking pot and abusing alcohol too.

It was recommended to me after I became extremely depressed around a year clean/sober and checked into in-patient for some extra help that I start on antidepressants, but I nixed that as I was pregnant at the time.

I was several years into recovery before I finally sought out help again, and was diagnosed with clinical depression, and finally started on the antidepressants.

The addictions really do need to be addressed first.

Congratulations on your own recovery! I know how tough that is!

joinedintime

Yeah, if there was an easy answer I like to think that I would have thought of it already.

In the mean time she is convinced that I'm Satan's spawn and I'm hearing mean and vile outbursts from her fairly regularly via letter and texting. If I was 20% jack@SS or more, I'd be gone tonight because I don't deserve this existence. But something keeps me from dumping her out on her own. Of course the courts and my own sense of fairness would cause me to support her, but there is so much of the world beyond financial support that I just don't see her handling at this point.

She had a suicide attempt about a month ago which fell into the classic "cry for help" category. A couple days later she agreed that she needed to get her med's straight, but by a few days later she was back to being mentally "out there" for lack of a better description right now.

historyteach

The antidepressants can do no good at all as long as she's drinking. Alcohol is a depressant. They counter each other, causing the antidepressant to have no effect. And adding pot to the mix only complicates the matter.

Did she go to the hospital during her suicide attempt? That may have given the docs time to witness behaviors which would aide in a diagnoses. YOu can get those records for her doctor, perhaps?

I do wish you luck. SHe clearly needs help. I hope she gets it sooner, rather than later.

Shalom!

Jrock75

I didn't mean to come off like I was pointing fingers, I just have severe mistrust of shrinks and and hate the fact all they want to do is label people with a mental illness and feed them pills that usually (IMO) do more harm then good. I was just trying to get the OP to think long and hard before jumping on the psych med bandwagon. I'll try to elaborate more when I get home from work tonight.

joinedintime

Yes she did, but they didn't witness anything beyond the reaction to taking a bunch of flexerol and maybe some soma. A few hours later they sent her for a mental eval where they interviewed her for a few minutes, she fell asleep and when she work up the next morning saying she didn't want to hurt herself they let her go with a recommendation to talk to her doctor about her meds.

I have the records. They don't show much at all, especially in the way of anything that would assist in diagnosis.

She had driven about an hour and a half outside of our metro area. This was a small town hospital and then small town mental health center and it was the first time I'd been through anything like this so I wasn't as demanding as I should have been now looking back with 20/20 hindsight. (not that all small towns have poor quality help)


jrock, I dodged the finger point and did take it as mistrust of shrinks and drugs. No worries. Please do elaborate, I'll take all the input I can get and continue to try to sort it out.

groverat

joinedintime, for what it's worth this is my personal experience as both a recovering addict and bipolar.

First of all, I absolutely had to have professional help when I was first diagnosed with bipolar disorder in '92. I have been very fortunate in finding psychiatrists who were themselves in recovery. I couldn't then and can't now imagine controlling my disorder on my own. Secondly, there has not been a competent psychiatrist I've worked with who would treat my bipolar until I was clean and sober, so recovery had to be my first objective. Third, for my bipolar I had to be treated with both an anti-depressant AND a mood stabilizer (Lithium, Depakote and currently Lamictal). My docs have told me that Effexor by itself (which is also my anti-depressant) has a very good chance of pushing me into the manic phase without the mood stabilizer. Nobody in the 12-step groups in my area consider bipolar meds addictive or an indication that I am not clean and sober. In fact, my sponsor sort of makes it her job to make sure that I am taking them as prescribed.

This is just my experience. As long as I remain in recovery and follow the doctor's orders, I function very well.

But in my opinion all of this is moot until your wife gets the diagnosis for what is going on with her. Although bipolar disorder does have very specific symptoms, many of them could well be an indication of something entirely different.

Good Luck!