Why Does Na-Anon and Al-Anon Do This?
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Why Does Na-Anon and Al-Anon Do This?
I have been reading both sites Al-Anon, Na-Anon along with Smart Recovery.
The Al-Anon and Na-Anon topics mostly include how to identify manipulation, and how to detach from it to protect yourself. They talk a lot about letting go and letting God and I think its because they feel there is nothing you can do. Where over at Smart they talk more about what influence we have, and looking at each individual circumstance, understanding the difference between controlling and being supportive and working with someone. At Al-Anon its funny because I get the idea anything you do, almost anything is considered enabling. If you listen and let someone complain and feel sorry for themselves then your enabling, and its also viewed as manipulation. But at Smart, they are more into picking out nuggets of truth and sincere feelings that might happen during these discussions and using it to try to influence ideas. Maybe asking pointed questions how does it feel,, what would you prefer instead in order to make a person begin to think differently on their own.
Someone here mentioned Al-Anon doesnt have good success is helping addicts change and its not meant to be about them only you. But at Smart it says they have good results helping encourage change because of the techniques they use, and it tells you to care for yourself first too.
Its confusing, most of the Al-anon people are focusing on what not to do, and at Smart they are focusing on what to do. Al-Aanon talks a lot about the addict and it doesnt make sense if their program is about self care. Its almost like they want to change your thinking and make sure you believe the addict is someone you cant understand, relate to, and is nothing like you. But at Smart they dont even use the word addict, and they keep talking about how my fiance feels, what he says and does, and its much more like reality. This is strange difference too.
Someone in chat mentioned using ideas like addict is a way to detach from the personal side of things and not see him as my fiance anymore,. Its easier for me to think of him as an addict with a set of behaviors that explain all his actions. His actions are like every other addicts actions and this is why they dont need to hear my circumstances.
Im sorting out my thoughts and hope no one minds. Ive found good things from each idea, but some things Im doubting whos got the best approach, or at least for me.
The Al-Anon and Na-Anon topics mostly include how to identify manipulation, and how to detach from it to protect yourself. They talk a lot about letting go and letting God and I think its because they feel there is nothing you can do. Where over at Smart they talk more about what influence we have, and looking at each individual circumstance, understanding the difference between controlling and being supportive and working with someone. At Al-Anon its funny because I get the idea anything you do, almost anything is considered enabling. If you listen and let someone complain and feel sorry for themselves then your enabling, and its also viewed as manipulation. But at Smart, they are more into picking out nuggets of truth and sincere feelings that might happen during these discussions and using it to try to influence ideas. Maybe asking pointed questions how does it feel,, what would you prefer instead in order to make a person begin to think differently on their own.
Someone here mentioned Al-Anon doesnt have good success is helping addicts change and its not meant to be about them only you. But at Smart it says they have good results helping encourage change because of the techniques they use, and it tells you to care for yourself first too.
Its confusing, most of the Al-anon people are focusing on what not to do, and at Smart they are focusing on what to do. Al-Aanon talks a lot about the addict and it doesnt make sense if their program is about self care. Its almost like they want to change your thinking and make sure you believe the addict is someone you cant understand, relate to, and is nothing like you. But at Smart they dont even use the word addict, and they keep talking about how my fiance feels, what he says and does, and its much more like reality. This is strange difference too.
Someone in chat mentioned using ideas like addict is a way to detach from the personal side of things and not see him as my fiance anymore,. Its easier for me to think of him as an addict with a set of behaviors that explain all his actions. His actions are like every other addicts actions and this is why they dont need to hear my circumstances.
Im sorting out my thoughts and hope no one minds. Ive found good things from each idea, but some things Im doubting whos got the best approach, or at least for me.
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the two programs DO have very different positions and purpose...
let's see, how to put this....Alanon is the life raft for those that wish to get OFF the ship.....and Smart/CRAFT is for those who wish to stay on board and try to repair the hole in the hull.
once safely on the life raft, one can radio for help without fear of going down with the ship. but those on the ship MAY be able to help make repairs BEFORE the ship sinks.
let's see, how to put this....Alanon is the life raft for those that wish to get OFF the ship.....and Smart/CRAFT is for those who wish to stay on board and try to repair the hole in the hull.
once safely on the life raft, one can radio for help without fear of going down with the ship. but those on the ship MAY be able to help make repairs BEFORE the ship sinks.
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"Someone here mentioned Al-Anon doesnt have good success is helping addicts change and its not meant to be about them only you."
That would have been me. Yes, this is what I believe about al-anon/nar-anon.
"But at Smart it says they have good results helping encourage change because of the techniques they use, and it tells you to care for yourself first too."
Yes, and when I have posted quotes from Beyond Addiction (authors are SMART founders) and mentioned SMART/CRAFT in this forum, in the past, I was referred over to the Secular Connections forum area.
re: al-anon/nar-anon, "I get the idea anything you do, almost anything is considered enabling. If you listen and let someone complain and feel sorry for themselves then your enabling, and its also viewed as manipulation."
This might be common in al-anon/nar-anon, I would agree with you, Jessica. But in the earlier thread from last week, thinking this way might be the only way the loved one can cope.
From my limited knowledge, SMART seems more difficult and challenging for a loved one who needs to separate from the A s/he loves.
AnvilheadII says it well. Hit nail on head.
That would have been me. Yes, this is what I believe about al-anon/nar-anon.
"But at Smart it says they have good results helping encourage change because of the techniques they use, and it tells you to care for yourself first too."
Yes, and when I have posted quotes from Beyond Addiction (authors are SMART founders) and mentioned SMART/CRAFT in this forum, in the past, I was referred over to the Secular Connections forum area.
re: al-anon/nar-anon, "I get the idea anything you do, almost anything is considered enabling. If you listen and let someone complain and feel sorry for themselves then your enabling, and its also viewed as manipulation."
This might be common in al-anon/nar-anon, I would agree with you, Jessica. But in the earlier thread from last week, thinking this way might be the only way the loved one can cope.
From my limited knowledge, SMART seems more difficult and challenging for a loved one who needs to separate from the A s/he loves.
AnvilheadII says it well. Hit nail on head.
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Jessica,
I've used Rational Recovery, SMART, Al-Anon, SR and counseling. I found Gottman more useful than CRAFT when working on my marriage. I'm a big believer in their Four Horseman of the Apocalypse. I have also found Brene Brown quite fascinating in her work on vulnerability.
So my experience may reassure you that the phrase, Take what you like and leave the rest.' , may serve you well. You don't have to fit in any peg.
I've used Rational Recovery, SMART, Al-Anon, SR and counseling. I found Gottman more useful than CRAFT when working on my marriage. I'm a big believer in their Four Horseman of the Apocalypse. I have also found Brene Brown quite fascinating in her work on vulnerability.
So my experience may reassure you that the phrase, Take what you like and leave the rest.' , may serve you well. You don't have to fit in any peg.
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Speaking personally, I think it's incumbent upon the loved ones of addicts to find a way of coping that is both healthy and helpful. It can be Al Anon, Nar Anon, SMART...doesn't matter.
What does matter is self honesty. To continue using Anvil's metaphor, if you wish to stay on the ship, you have to accept the inherent risk of such a decision. You need to be honest about what your limits are and how much pain/frustration you're willing and able to absorb. And you also need to be honest about what your eyes are telling you about the addict. If the addict's sinking by the bow and their stern is high up in the air, you have to accept the fact that the rate that the water's coming in is fast than your ability to repair the hole in the hull. Otherwise, when the ship goes down, you either go down with it, or you get pulled under while trying to swim away.
What does matter is self honesty. To continue using Anvil's metaphor, if you wish to stay on the ship, you have to accept the inherent risk of such a decision. You need to be honest about what your limits are and how much pain/frustration you're willing and able to absorb. And you also need to be honest about what your eyes are telling you about the addict. If the addict's sinking by the bow and their stern is high up in the air, you have to accept the fact that the rate that the water's coming in is fast than your ability to repair the hole in the hull. Otherwise, when the ship goes down, you either go down with it, or you get pulled under while trying to swim away.
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The ships make sense, either staying on the ship and learning how to keep your balance while making an effort you feel comfortable with, or jumping off the ship because it is underwater and you cant breath uderwater.
I dont understand the Al-anon ideas though. The best understanding Ive come up with is the ideas try to keep you from getting too involved in the first place. Maybe like Alterity said, its a more simplistic approach, dont do anything and there is no risk of getting sucked in at all. This is probably the advice people would give after going down with the ship. They wish they got off earlier, maybe I got the idea now.
I dont know what to do. when he came home yesterday he apologized and asked if we could wait and discuss it all later. I said yes, but I still want to discuss it, and he said ok. I havent told Anyone else yet because I want to talk to him more first. He did say heroin scared him, but oxy made him feel better than weed ever did and he had no anxiety when he was on it. I'm working on deciding what I need for me right now regardless of what he does next.
I dont understand the Al-anon ideas though. The best understanding Ive come up with is the ideas try to keep you from getting too involved in the first place. Maybe like Alterity said, its a more simplistic approach, dont do anything and there is no risk of getting sucked in at all. This is probably the advice people would give after going down with the ship. They wish they got off earlier, maybe I got the idea now.
I dont know what to do. when he came home yesterday he apologized and asked if we could wait and discuss it all later. I said yes, but I still want to discuss it, and he said ok. I havent told Anyone else yet because I want to talk to him more first. He did say heroin scared him, but oxy made him feel better than weed ever did and he had no anxiety when he was on it. I'm working on deciding what I need for me right now regardless of what he does next.
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Im reading it, and its helpful. I like it a lot, and Im even thinking it would help my fiance to read the first chapters on addiction. Im not sure how to share it with him without making him defensive. I cant find anyone to talk to here about the book, but someone told me to go to Smart and I did over the weekend and chatted, posted. I like it so far, and I may try an online meeting. havent looked to see if they have one close to where I live yet.
Your posts are helpful, thanks.
Your posts are helpful, thanks.
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Alanon hasn't told me not to do anything, but they have suggested a lot of things I can do differently. When I manage to do so I feel better. Imho listening and accepting but not participating isn't enabling. Getting triggered and diving into the fight bringing in my own obsession and control and martrydom is what I used to do. Alanon taught me how to do better, even when I mess up sometimes.
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Originally Posted by schnappi99 
Imho listening and accepting but not participating isn't enabling. Getting triggered and diving into the fight bringing in my own obsession and control and martrydom is what I used to do. .
Smart says its ok to participate.
The issue of obsession and controlling is separate because it comes down to if we feel these are behaviors we need to change about ourselves, then we learn to change them. But can usually keep participating while we work on it. Im working on this, not controlling because I dont think its my problem, but I aggravate and make him defensive where I could be calmer and help facilitate discussions better.
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First....you're exploring.....and that's good.
I explored everything. I read everything I could get my hands on. I took what made sense to me from it all. But there was still stuff that felt contradictory from it all. The most important thing is I kept at it until I found MY peace.
Some people are enablers. Some people aren't. If they aren't, the whole concept of enabling won't make sense to them. But that doesn't mean that the behavior doesn't exist in others. And then there is the whole concept of denial........which can cloud the daylight out of everything.
Keep searching and researching until you find what fits for you. There is no absolute one size fits all solution.
You hit the nail on the head when you noticed that all programs seem to have one common theme.......take care of you.
I explored everything. I read everything I could get my hands on. I took what made sense to me from it all. But there was still stuff that felt contradictory from it all. The most important thing is I kept at it until I found MY peace.
Some people are enablers. Some people aren't. If they aren't, the whole concept of enabling won't make sense to them. But that doesn't mean that the behavior doesn't exist in others. And then there is the whole concept of denial........which can cloud the daylight out of everything.
Keep searching and researching until you find what fits for you. There is no absolute one size fits all solution.
You hit the nail on the head when you noticed that all programs seem to have one common theme.......take care of you.
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The OP made a great observation about Alanon - it's a double message: on one hand, let go, but on the other hand let's all talk about nothing but the alcoholic 24/7.
The focus of Alanon is exclusively ON the alcoholic - the "Alanons" are pathologized as being sick, sick people who need to change and be encouraging without enabling. And work the program because you are sick, sick, sick . . . It's not empowering at all. It keeps you in a victim position - elevating the alcoholic to the king status that AA talks about.
The focus of Alanon is exclusively ON the alcoholic - the "Alanons" are pathologized as being sick, sick people who need to change and be encouraging without enabling. And work the program because you are sick, sick, sick . . . It's not empowering at all. It keeps you in a victim position - elevating the alcoholic to the king status that AA talks about.
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No one here has ever made me feel like I'm sick. We all get to do it our way.
I have found a lot of Al-anon very helpful.
I don't follow a set of rules, but suggestions can really help with decisions.
Seeing that someone else had the courage to make changes and seeing that their life was better gave me the courage to make changes.
Enabling wasn't my problem. My problem was knowing I had the power of life or death and I had to be my son's savior. I was the only one in the world that could save him. I could save him by enabling or I could save him by not enabling. My whole life's purpose was saving my son and I ended up emotionally bankrupt.
There are a few things I've learned.
Awareness-dig deep and be willing to recognize my faults and actions that are controlling and dysfunctional. Learn about addiction and learn ways I can help and ways I can't help. Let go of behavior that is harmful to me and my son.
Acceptance-I can't control another person's actions. There are some things I have to let go of. Stop shoveling smoke.
Action-Do the next right thing, which isn't always the same action. Learn from other's experience. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to make the same mistake more than once.
Respect-Treat my son with respect and stop reacting.
I have found a lot of Al-anon very helpful.
I don't follow a set of rules, but suggestions can really help with decisions.
Seeing that someone else had the courage to make changes and seeing that their life was better gave me the courage to make changes.
Enabling wasn't my problem. My problem was knowing I had the power of life or death and I had to be my son's savior. I was the only one in the world that could save him. I could save him by enabling or I could save him by not enabling. My whole life's purpose was saving my son and I ended up emotionally bankrupt.
There are a few things I've learned.
Awareness-dig deep and be willing to recognize my faults and actions that are controlling and dysfunctional. Learn about addiction and learn ways I can help and ways I can't help. Let go of behavior that is harmful to me and my son.
Acceptance-I can't control another person's actions. There are some things I have to let go of. Stop shoveling smoke.
Action-Do the next right thing, which isn't always the same action. Learn from other's experience. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to make the same mistake more than once.
Respect-Treat my son with respect and stop reacting.
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Originally Posted by seek
The OP made a great observation about Alanon - it's a double message: on one hand, let go, but on the other hand let's all talk about nothing but the alcoholic 24/7.
The focus of Alanon is exclusively ON the alcoholic - the "Alanons" are pathologized as being sick, sick people who need to change and be encouraging without enabling. And work the program because you are sick, sick, sick . . . It's not empowering at all. It keeps you in a victim position - elevating the alcoholic to the king status that AA talks about.
The focus of Alanon is exclusively ON the alcoholic - the "Alanons" are pathologized as being sick, sick people who need to change and be encouraging without enabling. And work the program because you are sick, sick, sick . . . It's not empowering at all. It keeps you in a victim position - elevating the alcoholic to the king status that AA talks about.
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In the alanon meetings I've been in the alcoholic is only mentioned to provide context for what's going on with us. That said I've seen newcomers do a lot of "he/she-ing", meaning talking about all the stuff the alcoholic was doing, but after a while they start doing more work on and for themselves.
Tell you what though, if Smart Recovery proposes participating in the distinction (presumably to maybe help make things more functional) there is no way way it would have worked for me. I was way too obsessed and self-righteous and resentful for much functional discussion of anything.
Tell you what though, if Smart Recovery proposes participating in the distinction (presumably to maybe help make things more functional) there is no way way it would have worked for me. I was way too obsessed and self-righteous and resentful for much functional discussion of anything.
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Originally Posted by seek
The OP made a great observation about Alanon - it's a double message: on one hand, let go, but on the other hand let's all talk about nothing but the alcoholic 24/7.
The focus of Alanon is exclusively ON the alcoholic - the "Alanons" are pathologized as being sick, sick people who need to change and be encouraging without enabling. And work the program because you are sick, sick, sick . . . It's not empowering at all. It keeps you in a victim position - elevating the alcoholic to the king status that AA talks about.
The focus of Alanon is exclusively ON the alcoholic - the "Alanons" are pathologized as being sick, sick people who need to change and be encouraging without enabling. And work the program because you are sick, sick, sick . . . It's not empowering at all. It keeps you in a victim position - elevating the alcoholic to the king status that AA talks about.
What struck me about Al Anon meetings the most were the mothers of alcoholic and/or addicted children, and these women did everything they possibly could for their children to no avail. The more they tried, the deeper they sunk into the quicksand.
And then a strange thing happened. Two things occurred to me. The first was it took an incredible amount of strength for these women to detach from their kids in order to protect themselves. The second was if they could do that with their children, then I certainly could do the same with my then AGF, and for the same reasons. It didn't matter what I did or didn't do for my AGF, because she was going to do whatever she wanted. Just like it didn't matter what those moms did for their kids because those kids were going to do whatever they wanted. And the acceptance of being powerless turned into taking our power back. So I disagree with the premise that Al Anon's/Nar Anon's focus is on the alcoholic/addict. The focus is on us, for if it wasn't on us, we wouldn't be able to accept that someone else's addiction isn't in our control, and we couldn't be able to detach from that situation.
Now, I understand this is a subjective view. I also understand and appreciate that Al Anon/Nar Anon isn't for everyone. What matters is Jessica and others who pass through here find a way, any way, to address how addiction has touched her life in a constructive, healthy manner. Jessica is asking the right questions, and as long as a person does that, most of the time they'll be in a position to make better decisions for themselves going forward.
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I havent felt like the people at Al-anon or Na-anon are mean, but Im trying to see what they can offer me. The people are sincere I think but you can tell they follow a set idea because its repeated in all the discussions and doesnt deviate much so I feel like they are rules even if they are called suggestions. Its strange hearing one place be all about the addict and discuss generically, but another place at smart discussing specific situations and the facts, feelings of both sides.
I do see people on the Na-anon site saying things like I was told here. a healthy person would have left as soon as she found out, why was I drawn to saving him? I thought those comments werent very nice when no one knows me, but I see its a generic idea from them.
Are those the ideas you mean Seek?
I will keep learning. The big thing I see in Na-anon is let go, let God and lots of things used I think to take away the guilt from it, This includes lots of discussion on the addict and what they should and shouldnt be doing. Also lots of support for the NA and AA programs. They are clearly tied together in ideas and not sure I like this because it doesnt have any discussion of options outside of it. At smart I met a woman using Al-anon too, but at Al-anon they dont discuss anything but their stuff. feels restricting to me.
I cant find anything professional saying dont do anything but pray from beginning to end. I dont think the idea nothing you do matters, and everything tried fails is accurate for everyone, because Im seeing the professional consensus say do everything you can. I think its assumed it will be done within reason so you keep your own health.
I do see people on the Na-anon site saying things like I was told here. a healthy person would have left as soon as she found out, why was I drawn to saving him? I thought those comments werent very nice when no one knows me, but I see its a generic idea from them.
Are those the ideas you mean Seek?
I will keep learning. The big thing I see in Na-anon is let go, let God and lots of things used I think to take away the guilt from it, This includes lots of discussion on the addict and what they should and shouldnt be doing. Also lots of support for the NA and AA programs. They are clearly tied together in ideas and not sure I like this because it doesnt have any discussion of options outside of it. At smart I met a woman using Al-anon too, but at Al-anon they dont discuss anything but their stuff. feels restricting to me.
I cant find anything professional saying dont do anything but pray from beginning to end. I dont think the idea nothing you do matters, and everything tried fails is accurate for everyone, because Im seeing the professional consensus say do everything you can. I think its assumed it will be done within reason so you keep your own health.
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For me ~ Al-Anon was & still is a life saver ~
and that Life that needed to be saved was MINE - not the many alcoholics/addicts in my life.
Al-Anon also taught me about having an open, honest & willing mind, heart & spirit to look for all the resources to make me a healthier person ~
So I find help in many programs of recovery, prayer & my communication with the God of my understanding & the love & support I receive from my recovery family.
So glad you are seeking for what will work for you ~ that's the best step in the right direction.
PINK HUGS!
and that Life that needed to be saved was MINE - not the many alcoholics/addicts in my life.
Al-Anon also taught me about having an open, honest & willing mind, heart & spirit to look for all the resources to make me a healthier person ~
So I find help in many programs of recovery, prayer & my communication with the God of my understanding & the love & support I receive from my recovery family.
So glad you are seeking for what will work for you ~ that's the best step in the right direction.
PINK HUGS!
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"For me ~ Al-Anon was & still is a life saver ~
and that Life that needed to be saved was MINE - not the many alcoholics/addicts in my life."
Not to question your circumstances in particular, but in a generic sense, why can't both lives be saved? What I have found, and what I think Jessica might also be finding, is that al/nar-anon seems to employ extremely black and white, binary logic: me or the A, sober or not, success or failure, "with the program" or not, in recovery or in denial, enabling or not, etc. However, the world is not black and white and consists largely of shades of grey. Such heuristics serve to simplify, so can be very helpful for people who need simplification, but can also be very exclusionary, rigid, and off putting to people who both want to help themselves AND their As.
and that Life that needed to be saved was MINE - not the many alcoholics/addicts in my life."
Not to question your circumstances in particular, but in a generic sense, why can't both lives be saved? What I have found, and what I think Jessica might also be finding, is that al/nar-anon seems to employ extremely black and white, binary logic: me or the A, sober or not, success or failure, "with the program" or not, in recovery or in denial, enabling or not, etc. However, the world is not black and white and consists largely of shades of grey. Such heuristics serve to simplify, so can be very helpful for people who need simplification, but can also be very exclusionary, rigid, and off putting to people who both want to help themselves AND their As.
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