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MeredithD1

Thank you for sharing that information, Kindeyes. I know that I've been subject to gaslighting attempts in the past but fortunately for me, I always held back on believing the gaslighter.

My mother is mentally ill and narcissism is part of that. It seems there are varying degrees of similar illnesses, all the way from BPD to schizophrenia. Some are rife with control issues. Others are rife with victim issues. Others are somewhere in-between.

Once I came here to SR and to other places where people gather to heal, I realized I was not alone, and it strengthened my resolve.

Elphie

Funny, I was thinking alot about the Gaslighting issue last night....my EX was likely Borderline so I've delt with this subject before....

AD seems to have her bf, and family friends emeshed right now into believing she is sincere about recovery, so when i bring up the fact that alot of this could be lies...I'm the one who seems "crazy"...for not seeing her progress, sincerity, efforts...for doubting her words...i'm the one overreacting.

Amazing the similarities between personality disorders and addiction.

Kiana

Realizing that gaslighting is done purposely.....at first that realization was devastating, to actually come to grips with the fact that the person who I thought loved me had actually been purposely maliciously manipulative for their own selfish gain.....but then after soaking it all in it was very freeing, to the point of being able to walk away and never look back. That was years ago with an abusive H that was not an A.

Beautifully stated:

For me, acknowledging that this behavior is happening will help me recognize it when it does.....I can't allow another person to shape or define my own reality.

Thank you.

SadHeart

For a long time now I've wondered why I am so angry with my codependent, passive aggressive mother, more angry with her even than my (dead) alcoholic father who was so openly rejecting and hateful to me growing up.

Why be so angry with her, when she tried? At least she tried. He never tried. And everything good I had in my childhood I had from her. Maybe not affection or nurturing, but opportunities, a decent home, mother services such as driving me places, clothes, medical care, routine, etc... For the most part she was very 'nice' (I know it sound contradictory: she was nice, but not affectionate or nurturing). A good codependent, she avoided conflict, anger, negative feelings or inconvient truths: she was 'nice'.

And I am so angry with her, so angry to the point that I'm a hair's breadth away from cutting her out of my life forever.

Why? I ask myself. It's more than the second class citizenship she relegated me to my whole life (up to now even). More than shut up, be quiet, don't fuss, don't point out, notice or feel inconvenient realities. Pretend, pretend, pretend we are perfect, pretend I am perfect, pretend it's you.

That's enough for anger, but it never answered the question. Why be angrier with her who at least tried than my alkie father who was openly hostile and rejecting?

And now I know the answer: My mother was a master gaslighter.

The codie was a bigger gaslighter than the alkie. And I was the victim of them both, but the bigger victim of the gaslighter. It did more damage than the open resentment of my father (who was forced into marriage at age 19 with my mother because she was pregnant with me).

She does it even now, 26 years after my father's drunk driving death. Instead of doing it on behalf of holding together her family, or hiding my father's alcoholism and meanness, or staying married and thus economically viable--she does it for her own ego, to manipulate people's perception of how 'nice', how wise, how sensitive and understanding she is.

She does it to cover up and explain away her grandson's substance abuse, dropping out of college, etc... and her estrangement with her daughter (me). My anger is greater towards her because she's no longer doing it to 'survive', but to self-grandize and stroke her ego--at the expense of others, particularly me.

SadHeart

Like my nice, friendly, warm, sensitive, highly regarded in the community mother.

After my second divorce a few years ago, while still in the divorce death struggle and in great pain, she started making little 'jokes' and amusing references regarding how I 'wasn't good at marriage'.

Passive aggressive yes. But also gaslighting because she had an agenda: she wants me to stay unmarried so I can be with her when she gets older. If she can plant in my mind that I'm not good at marriage, that I'm defective in this way, that they are all doomed to failure because of me, then I'll be discouraged from marrying or bonding again, and be available to keep her company and take care of her when she gets older. She's been starting to worrying about her end of life care. She's noticing among her older friends that a lot of them, end up struggling on their own--their children too busy, (or too fed up with them) to help.

Her own mother aged 10 states away, away from her 3 daughters who arrived only in time to pull the plug. Her sister-in-law can barely carry groceries and is lonely and hypochroniactic, and her daughter only does a perfunctory monthly call, a rather begrudging one.

Some of her friends though have daughters who pop in every day or two, who shop and fix and take them to medical appointments and see they are included in events, etc...

My second husband took me out of state. A new husband or boyfriend might busy me with travel and our own interests. Who will fetch and carry for her? Who will do her taxes and figure out her medical insurance paperwork? Who will arrange for the roof to be fixed and handle ice storms and other crises?

Any further husband might interfere with her life comfort, so how much better to dissuade me from having one?

She started a subtle campaign of how I'm not good at marriage, how it's better at a certain age not to be married, how I just shouldn't ever do it again. If I called her on it she would whine she was just trying to help, she wanted to save me from 'this pain', that it was hard on her to see me so 'hurt' (altho she was all for reconciling with my ex because he did errands for her, even though he'd hit me). Or she'd deny she meant it that way, i misunderstood (part of my problem, you see). Now she just denies she ever did that.

But the thing was it was working: what WAS wrong with me? Why couldn't I stay married. I shouldn't get married again...it was working. I was doubting myself, thinking I was defective, and always feeling bad.

It was okay with her if I spend the last 35 years of my life alone and lonely if it meant I was there to take care of her. This wasn't just passive aggressive, this was gaslighting--manipulating my self perception so I was afraid to trust myself again, or even to try if an opportunity presented itself.

The irony? She is her husband's 4th wife. He didn't know how to do marriage. He abandonned one (and their mutual child who later killed himself), he cheated on the next two, and then he married my mother, and they've been more or less happily married for 25 years. Good thing HE didn't stop trying after two marriages, or three marriage. Good thing for HER he kept trying to get marriage right.

Something she tried to deny me.

And she will never admit it, just protest how she was trying to protect me... it was all for me... and after all I really aren't good at marriage, am I?

Kiana

And she will never admit it

After I came to the realization of what had been happening and was leaving for good, my X, in a last desperate attempt to try to convince me to stay by being "honest", on his knees and through a flood of tears, admitted to it all.

I believe as long as we know it, that's enough...and enough to start sorting things out and begin healing from the damage it does.

I am glad you know it. :ghug3

StillLearning1

((sadheart))

Just wanted to tell you, I understand. I also get those ruminating thoughts.
I KNOW better. Intellectually. Mentally. But some of those hurtful words, they continue to haunt me. I either allow them to define me, or get so angry, telling myself, "no".

Steals our days doesn't it?
I am powerless over this one. I KNOW it. I hit another bottom, went to an alanon meeting. To be honest with you. I LIKED myself better, when I was in Alanon. It felt like home. Felt great. But still, I need something a little different.
I'm going to ACOA. (Adult children of Alcoholics)

Working on my family of origin stuff, to REALLY put it into the past. Let go of it.
I believe they can help me do it. It is certainly worth a try, as what I am currently doing, isn't working!

Maybe you might want to try it?
SL

washbe2

Very interesting. Have never heard that term but have seen the movie. I do believe this is tactic of addicts. Sometimes with my AS, I think he really believes the words he is saying and he really doesn't see that HE is one with the problem .

Kindeyes

There is no doubt in my mind that our AS believes the words he is saying. There is no doubt in my mind that he doesn't realize that his addiction and behavior is a huge problem. Just like, in the height of my own denial, I believed every word I said and I didn't see my part in the problem. It takes TWO people for gaslighting to work. When ONE of them stops participating, the behavior cannot continue......at least not in that relationship.

I only have control of one person in the relationship between myself and my son.......so that is who I concentrate on controlling.......me.

gentle hugs
ke

SadHeart

So True.

SadHeart

I do ACOA work with my therapist. It's shocking how powerful it is.

It came to me another difference: with my father who was a sullen, hateful and rejecting drunk, I just hated him (once I got past the automatic child love phase), and then i was really indifferent to him. I moved out, had my own life, he couldn't touch me and he wasn't worthy and I had long ago learned to expect nothing of him. He was nothing and I didn't care when he died.

But I don't hate my codie mother; I am however, immensely enraged with her. She would be horrified if she knew how angry I am with her. It's a blast furnace of anger. She did more damage than him because I don't hate her.

I haven't talked to her since March. I've heard a little about her and my AS, and I don't like what I hear (she's selfishly codepending on him and undercutting his chances at recovery). I would not be surprised if I never talked to her again. There's just no more room for her to make one more codie passive aggressive misstep.

And she has no understanding of what's wrong with her. She whines: You changed the rules. She plays victim. She is so sure she's wise and loving and strong and patient and I'm just a mess. She wants to explain herself and tell me about her relationship with her parents like that matters or excuses anything. She wants to convince me she doesn't 'remember', doesn't 'understand', doesn't 'know where this is coming from'. She wants to minimize. I have no tolerance. It's all gaslighting.

HopefulGF65

((WOW)). This hits home like you wouldn't believe. My ex had me believing I was nuts half the time. he was so good at lying and so insistent that even though I knew he was lying, I found myself doubting what I knew in the same moment. Crazy I know but your sanity is questioned to the point you think sometimes the addict is functioning better than you are.

I'd like to think it's the addiction that made him so manipulative because I don't want to believe someone can be like this on their own. But what's interesting is I've often thought he exhibited signs of a personality disorder so I'm guessing that even if he does get clean, the underlying issues will be there and I want no part of it.

Thank you for this great great thread. I agree with other posters who said it helps so much to have a name to what went on because for a while it felt like it was only happening to me.

Learn2Live

Thank you so much for posting this! I really needed to read this because it is what AXBF was using on me today. What he has done has traumatized me and then he sends me an email today acting all concerned about my feelings and my welfare. I responded that I will not allow him to manipulate me any longer. I am literally shaking and feel like I'm going to throw up. Thank you so much, again, it is helping me to see how I have been gaslighted for at least a month now.

PrayingMama

Until you can name the demon, you have no power over it.

oooopps

Kindeyes, i definitely had my arse gas-lighted by the addict. Then I stopped participating because i need my brain cells and all the other cells in my body to be healthy.

Thank you for sharing this. Very helpful.

Learn2Live

Thank you oooopps for posting that. It validates me. Alcoholic addict with no recovery, no program, living in my house the last 2 and a half years and all of his CHAOS and confusion scrambled my brain and I am still digging myself out from under the avalanche.

GoingThrough2

I know this gaslighting. I had no idea what it was called. And I thank you for all of the information on this! It makes me feel better to know it has a name and a clear definition of what it means and is. My AXH made me think I was crazy. He with held so much from me and lied to me so much in 20 years. I began to think I was crazy. Towards the end, just before I left him. He had the nerve to call my family and tell them I was showing signs of mental illness. Fortunately my family knew he was the cause of almost all of my issues. I am glad to be out of that whole mess. My life is alot better now and I am finally with some peace. I am beginning to struggle a bit with some other issues. I'm not sure whats going on. I just know I dont trust hardly anyone and I dont mean that in an ugly way. I am talking about people I meet. I havent been social in 20 years. Everything was done with him around me. I had lost all of my friends probably 18 years ago. I am on my own for the first time in over 24 years. With my son. And I am going through alot. As are many others here. I really dont want pitty. I'm not sure what I want. But I find it amazing that all of these facts and stories are hitting home more than anything I have ever read so far since leaving him. It is almost overwhelming.. But I thank each and every one of you for posting these and making it possible for people like me to read and clearly try to understand the massive amounts of BS I have gone through and been put through for my whole life. Thanks again for the great reads ! ~GT2~