The Addict/Alcoholic Who Doesn't Work It
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7
The Addict/Alcoholic Who Doesn't Work It
I have been in recovery for 20 years and I understand that addiction is a disease. I also understand that there is a solution to addiction. The solution is outlined clearly in the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous and the book is clear that in order to recover the addict/alcoholic must WORK, put in the effort, be willing to go to any length, and basically change everything.
It's tough medicine, but it's a solution that works.
I can understand the addict/alcoholic who doesn't know the solution and hasn't worked it and yet still keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over, but the chronic relapser knows better. He or she has seen that the solution does indeed work. I am struggling with how to make peace with chronic and perpetual relapse behavior. These people know what they need to do, but for some reason refuse to "take their medicine."
In the meantime they run havoc over people's lives. They stress our public assistance programs, our prisons, our treatment facilities. They steal from law-abiding tax-paying citizens; they manipulate the courts and families and promise they will never do it again. Many are on SSI, some sort of Medicaid; some just live off family members. Few are capable of sustaining any kind of employment. Many drink/drug and drive and have suspended licenses, no insurance, but won’t put the EFFORT and WORK into even using public transportation. Many fail to use adequate family planning methods and have children who are abused and who stand a good chance of falling victim this illness. These parents can't support themselves, let alone their children.
If they "worked it," they could get better. I find it unconscionable that they won't work it. Yes, the addict/alcoholic is out of control once he or she takes the first drink, hit, etc, and the Big Book states that the addict/alcoholic has no defense against this first drink. BUT, that defense is built by working the program of action. The action is the medicine, yet these people either stop taking their "medicine" after the course of treatment, or don't finish the program of action in order to get the spiritual experience. They make the choice to pick up. It’s a conscious choice, and it’s saying, “I won’t WORK. I won’t take my medicine.”
Are these the ones who, as the book says, "are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves?" What do we do? Just let them run havoc? Rob and assault us and then feel sorry for them and say they are a “brain disease” and then throw more money into SSI, Medicaid, long-term residential treatment, et al? How many must these people harm until society says “no more?” I live in a community where these "unfortunates" seem to be more the rule than the exception, and I am tired of them.
Yes, I'm angry and I know for my recovery I need to quiet that anger, which this post is helping me do, and for my recovery I will work the program of action and work through this anger. I will do what I must do, put forth whatever WORK is necessary.
If only they would do the WORK.
It's tough medicine, but it's a solution that works.
I can understand the addict/alcoholic who doesn't know the solution and hasn't worked it and yet still keeps repeating the same mistakes over and over, but the chronic relapser knows better. He or she has seen that the solution does indeed work. I am struggling with how to make peace with chronic and perpetual relapse behavior. These people know what they need to do, but for some reason refuse to "take their medicine."
In the meantime they run havoc over people's lives. They stress our public assistance programs, our prisons, our treatment facilities. They steal from law-abiding tax-paying citizens; they manipulate the courts and families and promise they will never do it again. Many are on SSI, some sort of Medicaid; some just live off family members. Few are capable of sustaining any kind of employment. Many drink/drug and drive and have suspended licenses, no insurance, but won’t put the EFFORT and WORK into even using public transportation. Many fail to use adequate family planning methods and have children who are abused and who stand a good chance of falling victim this illness. These parents can't support themselves, let alone their children.
If they "worked it," they could get better. I find it unconscionable that they won't work it. Yes, the addict/alcoholic is out of control once he or she takes the first drink, hit, etc, and the Big Book states that the addict/alcoholic has no defense against this first drink. BUT, that defense is built by working the program of action. The action is the medicine, yet these people either stop taking their "medicine" after the course of treatment, or don't finish the program of action in order to get the spiritual experience. They make the choice to pick up. It’s a conscious choice, and it’s saying, “I won’t WORK. I won’t take my medicine.”
Are these the ones who, as the book says, "are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves?" What do we do? Just let them run havoc? Rob and assault us and then feel sorry for them and say they are a “brain disease” and then throw more money into SSI, Medicaid, long-term residential treatment, et al? How many must these people harm until society says “no more?” I live in a community where these "unfortunates" seem to be more the rule than the exception, and I am tired of them.
Yes, I'm angry and I know for my recovery I need to quiet that anger, which this post is helping me do, and for my recovery I will work the program of action and work through this anger. I will do what I must do, put forth whatever WORK is necessary.
If only they would do the WORK.
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
One in ten of us is an alcoholic or addict.... that's a whole lot of folks to just say "no more" to. We'd need a steam roller the size of Texas to take em out all at once.... and then, the mess it would leave!! Egad...
Yeah, I am sort of kidding - you know that black humor can keep us sane. And the anger can kill us.
I have to remember every day that the person I love lives beneath the addiction. I believe whole heartedly that it is a disease, BUT that we who are affected by this disease must take responsibility for our actions... and that means making amends when we are able, in a way that doesn't hurt us or others.
My kids are both addicts, in and out of recovery... my daughter has brought her two absolutely adorable boys to live with us. They are born of two addicts, who are both children of two addicts. The chances of these boys being "normal" is pretty low.
So... I can't start to detatch NOW... heavens, this is the best part. The cooing, the waving, the toddling, the drooling, the wide-eyed stares, the cookie faced kisses, the tears cured with a kiss to a knee.
These boys are the light of my life. And they are likely to both develop addiction at some point. So what can I do? I can love them as much as possible now. I can help them learn about honesty and reward it, I can help to teach them to be open to new ideas and have values and morals that they can own, and give them the knowledge of a Creator who Loves us and who walks with us every minute.
Then I can only pray and hope... and there is always hope.
All I have to do is attend a few open AA meetings to see the hope - in every face of recovery looking back at me. And then I won't feel SO much like mowing the whole bunch of them down.
Thank you for helping me think this through.... I've been angry a lot, lately.
(((hugs))))
Yeah, I am sort of kidding - you know that black humor can keep us sane. And the anger can kill us.
I have to remember every day that the person I love lives beneath the addiction. I believe whole heartedly that it is a disease, BUT that we who are affected by this disease must take responsibility for our actions... and that means making amends when we are able, in a way that doesn't hurt us or others.
My kids are both addicts, in and out of recovery... my daughter has brought her two absolutely adorable boys to live with us. They are born of two addicts, who are both children of two addicts. The chances of these boys being "normal" is pretty low.
So... I can't start to detatch NOW... heavens, this is the best part. The cooing, the waving, the toddling, the drooling, the wide-eyed stares, the cookie faced kisses, the tears cured with a kiss to a knee.
These boys are the light of my life. And they are likely to both develop addiction at some point. So what can I do? I can love them as much as possible now. I can help them learn about honesty and reward it, I can help to teach them to be open to new ideas and have values and morals that they can own, and give them the knowledge of a Creator who Loves us and who walks with us every minute.
Then I can only pray and hope... and there is always hope.
All I have to do is attend a few open AA meetings to see the hope - in every face of recovery looking back at me. And then I won't feel SO much like mowing the whole bunch of them down.
Thank you for helping me think this through.... I've been angry a lot, lately.
(((hugs))))
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Hackettstown, NJ
Posts: 692
The disease is a mother F-er, you know? The frustration when we relapse (especially over and over) pisses people off. In my own meetings (NA) I have seen clean addicts blame the meeting, the sponsor, the area, the steps themselves, and especially the addict. Personally I blame the disease. It lives deep in our brains and essentially not only hijacks them, but revamps them forever. I have a 'tatoo' on my brain that says - "drugs - YES! Want to feel better about everything...then use!" I have seen many, many addicts come to meetings and avail themselves of recovery - even really appear to be on that pink cloud and feel grateful - and suddenly for no apparent they are relapsing again. Its baffling. Wait, isn't that what the book says? cunning, powerful, baffling?
the 12 steps are a miracle directly from God, IMO. the Fellowship is a blessing. However, lets look at the facts. The stats I am aware of is that of those who come into recovery (that is, those who go into treatment, including 12 step meetings), only 1 in 36 will achieve long term recovery. I think I once read some AA stats compiled by the World Service org of AA, - something less bleak but still by no means even the majority recovering- and that is those who identify themselves as members of AA. So lets just admit that, wonderful as it is, it isn't perfect. The program works for many, but hardly for most. When it does work for the long term, it requires so much work; more work (in terms of time and effort) than dialysis patients require; than cancer patients require - and it is forever work. I have seen addicts relapse after many years because they simply got a better job or went to grad school - and then needed to put tons of hours in to that in order to succeed at it (and therefore needed to cut back on meeings and service, etc). Some could sustain the pace for a while; many relapsed. The disease is unforgiving. It also waits. Yes, God is forgiving and powerful too but don't forget how powerful the disease is. Way more powerful than me, than you, than any addict.
Still, it (our 12 step programs) are the best game in town, and I can't imagine my life without it.
So, I for one, am open to things like suboxone, like methadone, like seeing improvement even when there is periodic relapse. It beats the alternatives for some of us.
My basic text (the NA book) tells me not to judge who will recover and who won't - but to treat every one I meet at a meeting the same and to 'give it away' without judgement, equally. Hard not to judge. But there's this - my daughter has never gotten more than 3 days clean outside of an inpatient treatment facility. What I wouldn't give to see her become a 'chronic relapser' - what joy it would be to see her stay clean for 6 months or more at a time, then to relapse for a week or two and get clean again!! Its all in how you look at it. \
When I catch myself up on my (oh so easy to do) judgemental attitude, I tell myself instead "Good God, bad disease".
Keep the faith,
sleepy (I'm coming up on 5 years. Once I had 10 years. In between, many relapses and many varied periods of recovery. Its been a life...)
the 12 steps are a miracle directly from God, IMO. the Fellowship is a blessing. However, lets look at the facts. The stats I am aware of is that of those who come into recovery (that is, those who go into treatment, including 12 step meetings), only 1 in 36 will achieve long term recovery. I think I once read some AA stats compiled by the World Service org of AA, - something less bleak but still by no means even the majority recovering- and that is those who identify themselves as members of AA. So lets just admit that, wonderful as it is, it isn't perfect. The program works for many, but hardly for most. When it does work for the long term, it requires so much work; more work (in terms of time and effort) than dialysis patients require; than cancer patients require - and it is forever work. I have seen addicts relapse after many years because they simply got a better job or went to grad school - and then needed to put tons of hours in to that in order to succeed at it (and therefore needed to cut back on meeings and service, etc). Some could sustain the pace for a while; many relapsed. The disease is unforgiving. It also waits. Yes, God is forgiving and powerful too but don't forget how powerful the disease is. Way more powerful than me, than you, than any addict.
Still, it (our 12 step programs) are the best game in town, and I can't imagine my life without it.
So, I for one, am open to things like suboxone, like methadone, like seeing improvement even when there is periodic relapse. It beats the alternatives for some of us.
My basic text (the NA book) tells me not to judge who will recover and who won't - but to treat every one I meet at a meeting the same and to 'give it away' without judgement, equally. Hard not to judge. But there's this - my daughter has never gotten more than 3 days clean outside of an inpatient treatment facility. What I wouldn't give to see her become a 'chronic relapser' - what joy it would be to see her stay clean for 6 months or more at a time, then to relapse for a week or two and get clean again!! Its all in how you look at it. \
When I catch myself up on my (oh so easy to do) judgemental attitude, I tell myself instead "Good God, bad disease".
Keep the faith,
sleepy (I'm coming up on 5 years. Once I had 10 years. In between, many relapses and many varied periods of recovery. Its been a life...)
Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,906
Originally Posted by sleepygoat 
The stats I am aware of is that of those who come into recovery (that is, those who go into treatment, including 12 step meetings), only 1 in 36 will achieve long term recovery.
Wow - I had no idea things were this bleak. My semi- RAH is one of those who doesn't "work" a program. I am really worried about his outcome. You can lead a horse to h20 but you can't make him drink I guess.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
The 12-Step program is not a one size fits all. People who don't identify with 12-Step concept are far too often written off as being a lost cause and/or in denial. Maybe if those chronic relapsers were offered some choices they might have a better chance at recovery. From Carol D's sticky:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-programs.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-programs.html
Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: New York, USA
Posts: 230
We also live close to a town where the "unfortunates" are more the rule than the exception. This year they tore down a housing area that they had basically destroyed on their own and built these beautiful condo homes, all with brand new appliances and are working on another unit across town, with a community pool of their own. It's so hard to drive by these gorgeous homes, wishing I had one of my own, and just watch them all sitting around outside, sipping on a beer and enjoying the weather, not a care in the world while we bust our butts and watch our taxes go up.
My daughter ran into an old school friend (at a bar) who just got into one of these units. The trick to staying in these units is to keep relapsing and using the system, they all told her how to do it. Come out of rehab, that we pay for, stay somewhat straight while getting prescribed drugs to keep high, that we pay for, go to meetings to make it look like you're making an effort, then when it's close to time to work a job and move on you relapse. Oh, I forgot, you have to have kids to live there and if your real good at working the system you'll have them on SSI within months. She thinks it's all a joke and while she might have lost her family she's gained another group she refers to as family and we pay for it.
How can you NOT be judgemental when these people know exactly what they are doing, will never hit any kind of bottom, and it's OUR money that supplies them with all the comforts in life? How do you teach the grandkids it's not the path to take when they see them get it all for free, while we all come home from work, dragging our a$$es, and not have a pot to p$$$$ IN?
My daughter ran into an old school friend (at a bar) who just got into one of these units. The trick to staying in these units is to keep relapsing and using the system, they all told her how to do it. Come out of rehab, that we pay for, stay somewhat straight while getting prescribed drugs to keep high, that we pay for, go to meetings to make it look like you're making an effort, then when it's close to time to work a job and move on you relapse. Oh, I forgot, you have to have kids to live there and if your real good at working the system you'll have them on SSI within months. She thinks it's all a joke and while she might have lost her family she's gained another group she refers to as family and we pay for it.
How can you NOT be judgemental when these people know exactly what they are doing, will never hit any kind of bottom, and it's OUR money that supplies them with all the comforts in life? How do you teach the grandkids it's not the path to take when they see them get it all for free, while we all come home from work, dragging our a$$es, and not have a pot to p$$$$ IN?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a good place
Posts: 4,482
Originally Posted by baxter
How can you NOT be judgemental when these people know exactly what they are doing, will never hit any kind of bottom, and it's OUR money that supplies them with all the comforts in life??
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 137
They are many paths to recovery. AA is not only way but it has worked millions and millions of people and that is why it is the largest
Personally, I am not AA guy. I have no problem go to their meetings. Have done so a few times and will go to more in hte fture. I just do not think the 12-step program works with my set of issues (current spitiuality: weak agnostic/atheist - spirituality bias towarded Reformed Christianity aka:tough).
For my spiritual disposition, Celebrate Recovery or SMART Recovery/Lifering are better programs for me but all of the non 12-step meetings are 50+ plus miles from my house.
Personally, I am not AA guy. I have no problem go to their meetings. Have done so a few times and will go to more in hte fture. I just do not think the 12-step program works with my set of issues (current spitiuality: weak agnostic/atheist - spirituality bias towarded Reformed Christianity aka:tough).
For my spiritual disposition, Celebrate Recovery or SMART Recovery/Lifering are better programs for me but all of the non 12-step meetings are 50+ plus miles from my house.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7
Wow, thanks to all the thoughtful responses. I'm working through this and being able to vent really helps. It also helps to know that others struggle as well. My judgmental tone stems from the fact I feel like a doormat. I am just as mad at myself for trusting a drug addict who was supposedly in recovery to watch my house and take care of my pets. You know the rest—theft, chaos, and so forth. I was “nice” and gave him an opportunity to seek treatment instead of immediately calling the police; now the police are saying that I called in the crime too late after the fact.
I like the serenity prayer, which says to accept the things I cannot change, have courage to change the things I can, and to grant me wisdom to know the difference. I believe that our HP's work through people, through us, and that we can be agents of change and reform.
I posted this message on the friends and family of alcoholics board and one person talked about respecting another person's choices. I agree that we have to respect other people's choices, but respect to me does not mean enabling or condoning, especially when a person's choice involves criminal behavior. If a person chooses an activity like using illegal drugs, drinking and driving, and that behavior leads to even more criminal behavior such as theft, child abuse, et al, than that person must have consequences. The addict/alcoholic's guilt and shame are one consequence, but to me, not adequate. A mumbled, "I'm sorry, I feel bad," isn't enough amends. In my opinion, my HP gave us the power of reason to fashion laws, in order to do HP's will. I do no agree that it does the addict/alcoholic any good to enable and more and more I have come to believe that our society enables entirely too much.
I have always been pretty liberal minded--politically and socially--but after living in the community I live in, and seeing how the system works, I am all for much tougher stances against people who commit drug and alcohol related crimes. I feel like I enabled this house sitter by not calling the police.
And thank you--doorknob, the A "gods" might strike me down, but I agree, the 'A's are not a one size fits all program.
I see too much of this in meetings; addict/alcoholic relapses for the fifth, sixth, twentieth time, and everyone in the meeting says “oh, you poor thing. Keep coming back.” I no longer want to pat them on the back and tell them how sorry we are for them. I am sorry for them, but their destructive behavior towards others has to end sometime. If they won't help themselves, then something has to be done to stop their criminal behavior.
And thanks again for your experience, strength, and hope.
I like the serenity prayer, which says to accept the things I cannot change, have courage to change the things I can, and to grant me wisdom to know the difference. I believe that our HP's work through people, through us, and that we can be agents of change and reform.
I posted this message on the friends and family of alcoholics board and one person talked about respecting another person's choices. I agree that we have to respect other people's choices, but respect to me does not mean enabling or condoning, especially when a person's choice involves criminal behavior. If a person chooses an activity like using illegal drugs, drinking and driving, and that behavior leads to even more criminal behavior such as theft, child abuse, et al, than that person must have consequences. The addict/alcoholic's guilt and shame are one consequence, but to me, not adequate. A mumbled, "I'm sorry, I feel bad," isn't enough amends. In my opinion, my HP gave us the power of reason to fashion laws, in order to do HP's will. I do no agree that it does the addict/alcoholic any good to enable and more and more I have come to believe that our society enables entirely too much.
I have always been pretty liberal minded--politically and socially--but after living in the community I live in, and seeing how the system works, I am all for much tougher stances against people who commit drug and alcohol related crimes. I feel like I enabled this house sitter by not calling the police.
And thank you--doorknob, the A "gods" might strike me down, but I agree, the 'A's are not a one size fits all program.
I see too much of this in meetings; addict/alcoholic relapses for the fifth, sixth, twentieth time, and everyone in the meeting says “oh, you poor thing. Keep coming back.” I no longer want to pat them on the back and tell them how sorry we are for them. I am sorry for them, but their destructive behavior towards others has to end sometime. If they won't help themselves, then something has to be done to stop their criminal behavior.
And thanks again for your experience, strength, and hope.
Forum Leader
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Burgh
Posts: 1,991
Hi Sabercat.
I admire your method of working through this.
You sound solid on your recovery
While I agree with you on many points, I think we need be careful not to label all addicts as criminals capable of crimes such as you mention. And all those who are addicts are not given a free pass when they do break the law.
The prisons are full of addicts.
I think its very difficult, if not impossible to provide for those who need the help, without enabling those who abuse the system. Is the answer to take it off of all?
Is the answer to take it off if they mess up?
Is AA and NA by design really a one strike you're out organization?
I agree...its maddening. But as a parent I would want to see my son have as many chances as it takes, especially in any program. Enabling? Perhaps, but that one last chance may be the one that works.
Just my thoughts
(((Hugs)))
I admire your method of working through this.
You sound solid on your recovery
While I agree with you on many points, I think we need be careful not to label all addicts as criminals capable of crimes such as you mention. And all those who are addicts are not given a free pass when they do break the law.
The prisons are full of addicts.
I think its very difficult, if not impossible to provide for those who need the help, without enabling those who abuse the system. Is the answer to take it off of all?
Is the answer to take it off if they mess up?
Is AA and NA by design really a one strike you're out organization?
I agree...its maddening. But as a parent I would want to see my son have as many chances as it takes, especially in any program. Enabling? Perhaps, but that one last chance may be the one that works.
Just my thoughts
(((Hugs)))
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by cece1960
Hi Sabercat
I think we need be careful not to label all addicts as criminals capable of crimes such as you mention. And all those who are addicts are not given a free pass when they do break the law.
The prisons are full of addicts.
Is AA and NA by design really a one strike you're out organization?
But as a parent I would want to see my son have as many chances as it takes, especially in any program. (((Hugs)))
I think we need be careful not to label all addicts as criminals capable of crimes such as you mention. And all those who are addicts are not given a free pass when they do break the law.
The prisons are full of addicts.
Is AA and NA by design really a one strike you're out organization?
But as a parent I would want to see my son have as many chances as it takes, especially in any program. (((Hugs)))
I agree. Not all addicts/alcoholics are criminals and there are degrees of crime, from minor to major offenses, and the prisons house a lot of substance abusers. I think our courts and local police departments should really start looking at a zero tolerance policy for crimes committed by substance abusers. Okay---so what do do about all these prisoners?Empty buildings can be modified at reduced costs to house more inmates. Inmates can be charged room and board for the time they are in prison and should work at a job to partially pay for their room and board. Most jails and prisons have some sort of AA and/or NA meeting or program of some kind. Every inmate who wants to attend should be allowed to attend. Those who dont' want to can join the general population. Certainly the prison/jail systems could and should expand the AA and NA meeting options with little adverse effect on the bottom line budget.
No one gets thrown out of AA or NA (although clubhouses can ban people for disruptive behavior; still these are separate from the AA or NA group. So, there is always a chance for your son, unless he committs a serious offense and is stuck in prison. I know one young man who murdered his girlfriend in a blackout. He is no longer a young man, though, since he has been in prison for 25 years.
I always thought prisons were places for rehabilitation. Instead, they are more like warehouses, but that doesn't need to be the case. Rehabilitation can happen if the addict/alcoholic inmate wants it.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Northeast US
Posts: 1,340
Our prison system is overcrowded to an obscene degree already. Many of our problems result from the prohibition of marijuana. Maybe if people weren't being locked up for possession of a substance far less lethal than alcohol, we could spend more money on rehabilitation (or our EDUCATION system) than warehousing addicts.
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 773
Sabercat, maybe those people who don't see to "get it" aren't a good fit got the mighty AA program. Maybe they also have mental illness that hinders their sobriety. Sorry we all can't "get it" like you.
tib
tib
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
