I don't want it and my mind is unchanged.
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I don't want it and my mind is unchanged.
I told D once that I never wanted him to love me like he loved guinness (his drink). That wasn't love in my book, need, desperation, obsession but not love.
I told him if I hurt him over and over I'd want him to leave not stay and stay looking for that first buzz.
I told him if I drove a nail between him and his loved one's, his mother, brother, father I'd want him to see I was destructive and uncaring, I'd want him to value their feelings much higher than the breif feelings I may once have given.
I told him if I made him less able, humiliated him, encouraged self loathing, and left him feeling regret he should run a mile, not stay just hating himself while he thinks I am not the problem.
I said if what he sees from being with me is pain, is fear, is consequences that rip away parts of his life - he should go.
So now guinness isn't in the equation - do I want it's place with him?
HELL NO!!!
I was never in competition with booze, I never wanted what booze had over him, I never wanted it's place.
I cannot understand a person thinking that is love - that 'they' love the bottle. That is NOT love, it has nothing to do with love.
Love is a verb; I do love, D does love and THAT I hope he always keeps, it causes no harm.
I told him if I hurt him over and over I'd want him to leave not stay and stay looking for that first buzz.
I told him if I drove a nail between him and his loved one's, his mother, brother, father I'd want him to see I was destructive and uncaring, I'd want him to value their feelings much higher than the breif feelings I may once have given.
I told him if I made him less able, humiliated him, encouraged self loathing, and left him feeling regret he should run a mile, not stay just hating himself while he thinks I am not the problem.
I said if what he sees from being with me is pain, is fear, is consequences that rip away parts of his life - he should go.
So now guinness isn't in the equation - do I want it's place with him?
HELL NO!!!
I was never in competition with booze, I never wanted what booze had over him, I never wanted it's place.
I cannot understand a person thinking that is love - that 'they' love the bottle. That is NOT love, it has nothing to do with love.
Love is a verb; I do love, D does love and THAT I hope he always keeps, it causes no harm.
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Try this, (SMILE) I can do all these actions that show love and can say I love, but isn't love a feeling?? A feeling that only I feel, no one else can tell.
I could gaze at someone with what looked like love or admiration and not feel it, someone said, we are all actors, I feel that is true.
I do believe there is chemestry, yet I also believe that can be one sided, but love can exist without chemestry in my opinion. .?????
I could gaze at someone with what looked like love or admiration and not feel it, someone said, we are all actors, I feel that is true.
I do believe there is chemestry, yet I also believe that can be one sided, but love can exist without chemestry in my opinion. .?????
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I don't think it is so much that we think they love alcohol, but more that they choose it over us and that makes us feel unloved. At least that's how it was for me. I've since learned that's not true and just a manifestation of my own fears and insecurities.
L
L
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I suppose it was just my longwinded way of saying I knew I wasn't in competition with it. They were two different races on two different tracks.
I haven't beaten alcohol - he has.
It's a hard feeling to wrap words round!!
I haven't beaten alcohol - he has.
It's a hard feeling to wrap words round!!
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I don't think anyone in this thread thinks they are in competition with the bottle.
I think Eq was just trying to understand how some say "he loves
alcohol more than he loves me."
I can't imagine that to be true of an alcoholic not for one minute.
The bottle can not hug you, wipe away your tears, confide in you,
kiss you and most certainly can not love you.
It is horrible sickness that drags our loved ones away from us,
straight to the bottle.
I can only image that the alcoholic HATES the bottle, as it is robbing
him/her of all that I mentioned above.
IMHO
I think Eq was just trying to understand how some say "he loves
alcohol more than he loves me."
I can't imagine that to be true of an alcoholic not for one minute.
The bottle can not hug you, wipe away your tears, confide in you,
kiss you and most certainly can not love you.
It is horrible sickness that drags our loved ones away from us,
straight to the bottle.
I can only image that the alcoholic HATES the bottle, as it is robbing
him/her of all that I mentioned above.
IMHO
Alcohol is a cruel mistress!!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Great thought provoking post, Equus.!! I disaggree with the idea Patty, for some A's at least. The love affair with the bottle is so passionate for some. Many alcoholics don't hate the bottle because they are in such a state of denial. Often that way of life is chosen instead of a wife/So and family happiness. Some people are completely obilvious.. Though I sure many people such as John learn to hate the control it has over them. How very sad for them and the families who have to deal with active alcoholism!!!
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I can only speak from my own experience and perhaps that's why it was not so hard for me to grasp the clinical concept of disease.
What I saw was D dealing with something, I think he would have given his right arm for it to be someone else not him, just to be normally drinking - he wasn't chosing to deal with that over me, it was happening to him. I don't mean by that to say he was passive, if that had been the case he could never have given it up - but the addiction was something happening to him, only what he did about it was choice.
The statements in the OP were ones I made to D directly at a time when he was saying he loved guinness. My belief is he picked the wrong word because the relationship between him and that drink was not at all like any definition of love I have ever heard - obsession yes, dependency and fear yes, but not love.
I still use the word alcoholic but I have reservations whether it makes as much sense as the clinical term 'alcohol dependency'. I watched those early times when he was going without something he depended on, his success it getting through that time was about him, hiswill, his motivation and his desire - but it was no smooth trip. I remember my own feelings on the day or night of a lapse, how hard it was to keep in mind the previous 7 days dry - 7 times the action of someone trying verses 1 time the action of 'not trying hard enough'. It could still feel as though that night he chose alcohol over me, that he gave in knowing all I would feel and couldn't care about me - BUT - how would I then reason the other 7 days?
It wasn't about me. He was dealing with this, he hadn't chosen to be addicted, it effected him differently and he became very dependent very quickly. His fight to win over it had begun years before he came back to find me - but it was a fight, not just a simple choice.
If I put it as me versus alcohol that would be because I put it as me versus alcohol - the alcohol was there before me not instead of me.
There was a time I would drink as much as D first did just as it began to hook him in - not that much, the odd binge, a little on other nights. It didn't happen to me, I didn't become dependent, D began to barracade his room unless he had alcohol to take the edge off.
Addiction isn't about loved ones - although I think love can add to the motivation to stop.
What I saw was D dealing with something, I think he would have given his right arm for it to be someone else not him, just to be normally drinking - he wasn't chosing to deal with that over me, it was happening to him. I don't mean by that to say he was passive, if that had been the case he could never have given it up - but the addiction was something happening to him, only what he did about it was choice.
The statements in the OP were ones I made to D directly at a time when he was saying he loved guinness. My belief is he picked the wrong word because the relationship between him and that drink was not at all like any definition of love I have ever heard - obsession yes, dependency and fear yes, but not love.
I still use the word alcoholic but I have reservations whether it makes as much sense as the clinical term 'alcohol dependency'. I watched those early times when he was going without something he depended on, his success it getting through that time was about him, hiswill, his motivation and his desire - but it was no smooth trip. I remember my own feelings on the day or night of a lapse, how hard it was to keep in mind the previous 7 days dry - 7 times the action of someone trying verses 1 time the action of 'not trying hard enough'. It could still feel as though that night he chose alcohol over me, that he gave in knowing all I would feel and couldn't care about me - BUT - how would I then reason the other 7 days?
It wasn't about me. He was dealing with this, he hadn't chosen to be addicted, it effected him differently and he became very dependent very quickly. His fight to win over it had begun years before he came back to find me - but it was a fight, not just a simple choice.
If I put it as me versus alcohol that would be because I put it as me versus alcohol - the alcohol was there before me not instead of me.
There was a time I would drink as much as D first did just as it began to hook him in - not that much, the odd binge, a little on other nights. It didn't happen to me, I didn't become dependent, D began to barracade his room unless he had alcohol to take the edge off.
Addiction isn't about loved ones - although I think love can add to the motivation to stop.
Alcohol is a cruel mistress!!!
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Equus, when I was young and before I had kids I too drank as much as Burt. The difference was is I was more of a party type drinker. I guess the difference is we can live without it. Take it or leave it. Considering my alcoholic up bringing and all the family member who are addicted, I feel so lucky I never became an alcoholic. I do believe there is alcoholic gene. My stepson says "its in my blood" I almost have to laugh. He gives such lame excuses to drink and drug. He has had so much help ie. rehabs, mental wards he just doesn't want to stop. I have gotten Se la ve' - french for such is life.
If we don't have acceptance we can drive ourself crazy. Kerry
If we don't have acceptance we can drive ourself crazy. Kerry
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I think it's balck and white thinking that causes the confusion - to accept one thing isn't a choice doesn't mean that ALL choices are lost.
The concept of choosing and addiction I think is quite hard to understand. On the one hand I don't think addiction is purely a choice - otherwise it would merely be drinking a lot. If I accept (and I do) that addiction is real it means understanding why it is different from a simple choice, why it is more than just drinking a lot. Clinically there are hard facts like withdrawal and the chemical changes in the brain which are part and parcel of alcohol dependency, on top of that is the strength of a repeated learned behaviour and the lack of alternative behaviours that have chance to form.
I suppose that's why alcohol dependency and alcohol abuse have much more meaning for me than 'alcoholism' - I find them more intuitively descriptive.
As for the whys - I think they are complex and multiple, I also reckon as a group it will subdivide with things true for some that are not true for others. All I know for sure is that addiction existed long before I was born, I haven't created it and it isn't in response to me or as an alternative to me.
There are plenty of men not addicted that wouldn't choose to live with me, they would all do something else instead. Thankfully the one I choose to live with feels does want to live with me - but he still had to deal with addiction, both before me and with me.
The concept of choosing and addiction I think is quite hard to understand. On the one hand I don't think addiction is purely a choice - otherwise it would merely be drinking a lot. If I accept (and I do) that addiction is real it means understanding why it is different from a simple choice, why it is more than just drinking a lot. Clinically there are hard facts like withdrawal and the chemical changes in the brain which are part and parcel of alcohol dependency, on top of that is the strength of a repeated learned behaviour and the lack of alternative behaviours that have chance to form.
I suppose that's why alcohol dependency and alcohol abuse have much more meaning for me than 'alcoholism' - I find them more intuitively descriptive.
As for the whys - I think they are complex and multiple, I also reckon as a group it will subdivide with things true for some that are not true for others. All I know for sure is that addiction existed long before I was born, I haven't created it and it isn't in response to me or as an alternative to me.
There are plenty of men not addicted that wouldn't choose to live with me, they would all do something else instead. Thankfully the one I choose to live with feels does want to live with me - but he still had to deal with addiction, both before me and with me.
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equus,
My so be ex - Wayne did choose beer over his family and said so...the kids and I asked him to get help and the fury that came from him was horrific to say the least even popping open a beer and spraying us with it. Does he "love" the can? In my heart I know it's the disease but sometimes I have to wonder....
My so be ex - Wayne did choose beer over his family and said so...the kids and I asked him to get help and the fury that came from him was horrific to say the least even popping open a beer and spraying us with it. Does he "love" the can? In my heart I know it's the disease but sometimes I have to wonder....
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Sober people also sadly leave their families. Had he been sober could you say he would have certainly stayed?
I don't bvelieve the feeling someone has for a substance they are addicted to is love - no more than a partner who remains purely because they are scared of life alone, it may be understandble but it isn't love.
I don't bvelieve the feeling someone has for a substance they are addicted to is love - no more than a partner who remains purely because they are scared of life alone, it may be understandble but it isn't love.
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