robina

Minnie - I understand what you are saying. It's perfectly understandable to think this. (that the alcoholism causes the mental illness) In many cases, alcoholism does trigger symptoms of mental illness. Many alcoholics end up with clinical depression, for example.

However, in some cases, the mental illness was there before the alcoholism. For example, my daughter was exhibiting symptoms of mental illness and threatening suicide long before she ever started drinking. I believe the she probably started drinking to medicate the underlying mental illness.

However, the mental illness/addiction issue is extremely complex and diffcult. Sometimes its really hard to figure out where the mental illness leaves off and the addiction starts. There is a huge overlap.

There is also a lot of misinformation out there. Many well meaning professionals in the addictions field don't acknowledge or understand that some alcoholics also suffer from mental illness. This means that our loved ones who suffer from both problems have a lot more diffculty finding help and treatment.

Robin

TomsGirl

I agree Robin. My AH says he can remember feeling deep sadness as a child and there was no explainable reason for it. Once he moved out on his own and had the ability to drink whenever and a much as he liked without prying eyes he used the alcohol to numb the feelings of depression. He didn't get any treatment for his depression until after his first suicide attempt when he was 39 years old.

robina

On a positive note, there is hope for people with a dual diagnosis. Counselling, following a 12 step program, and in some cases, medication, can help them lead a normal, healthy life.

Robin

minnie

Robin, I think you misunderstand me. I think the exact opposite of that. I believe that abusing alcohol is about self-medication, which is perpetuated by subsequent physical (and psychological) addiction.

Sorry for the confusion.

TomsGirl

I certainly believe that addiction can trigger mental illness if you're prone to it. The age old question "What came first, the chicken or the egg".

equus

I think here in the UK abusing alcohol is becoming a cultural norm - what deciding factors make one person end up chemically and psychologically addicted and another not is a different matter. I have never doubted mental health problems make someone more vulnerable but then so could differences in chemical processes or social/cultural differences.

I remember uni - most people abused the hell out of alcohol, most stopped or slowed when they left.

minnie

I abused the hell out of alcohol at uni too. Still do every once in a while, if truth be told. But it didn't fill the void for me as it does for an alcoholic. My patterning was to numb my feelings by focussing exclusively on other people instead of dealing with my own internal stuff. But it could just as easily have been alcohol. In fact, I often wonder whether I would have gone down that path had I not been in a long term relationship within which I subtly created enough dramas to keep my mind occupied.

ByAThread

Not to interrupt the debate as to which comes first...the alcoholism or the depression (I believe both are lying dormant in those of us who have them, and it just takes the right usage/events/situations to bring them on.)...but I do definitely think we should have a thread/sticky or even area of our own for dual diagnosis f&f and/or a's to focus on the DEALING with it, DIAGNOSING it (experiences, that is), etc. Anyone???
Barb

equus

Yes!! I think it should be solutions as well as frustrations though - and maybe set out stuff to avoid it getting derailed (not blaming - I joined in with derailment too!).

Also I still think it IS a different experience if your partner sober has been known to put their shirt on inside out and not notice, or when they can't get out the house, or so down all they do is sleep, or when they can't see the point to getting dressed at all. It is different if they are trying to stay sober while all that and more goes on.

minnie

Sorry. I shall make it a New Year's Resolution to keep on topic.

Any reason why you don't use the Mental Health Board? After all, it is on Sober Recovery, so should therefore be very weighted towards DD. Or could be if it isn't already.

equus

It's only about one thread - and we're still predominently F&F's of someone abusing alcohol. Probably for all the resons this forum exists rather than us all use the alcoholism one. It's an F&F thing too, just a thread in the F&F place.

Also new members dealing with other's alcohol abuse might really need it - dual diagnosis is VERY common.

prodigal

I saw that in a notebook my AH kept for the 40 days he was sober on the kitchen counter one evening. I found out that it meant he had the disease of alcoholism and the disease of depression, coupled with schizoid personality disorder. (No schizophrenic, but some similarities ...) Anyway, when I read about it, I realized the symptoms he manifested were indeed just what I was reading about, for the most part. I also learned that labels are just labels. Whatever his personality disorder was called, it had been there for a very long time.

Something strange about a person who has no friends (not even bar buddies), and who interacts with co-workers but comes home and basically isolates himself. Doesn't appear to relate with any depth or real attachment to anyone or anything either.

I think the deep-seated emotional problems cropped up in his mid-teens, from what a I can tell. By the age of 20, it seems he was a full-blown alcoholic.

The saddest part of the whole mess is that he wasn't quite as screwed up way back then because the disease hadn't progressed to the point it has now. Still .... I know under the surface there was a lot of pain for a lot of years and a lot of alcohol to "medicate" and avoid dealing with that pain.

I finally realized that we ALL have our problems and issues, it's a matter of how, and if, we deal with them. I simply made up my mind that this so-called "marriage" will not endure. He doesn't want to deal with his problems or addiction and I finally decided I would rather deal with my own problems and just leave his alone. Sad. Very, very sad.

robina

I was conflicted about what to do when my daughter's mental illness was diagnosed (in addition to her alcoholism). I didn't know if the mental illness changed the rules about "helping" and "ennabling". I gave it to my higher power, and what works for me is to set strong boundaries and stop ennabling. I'm doing everything I can to detach with love (although I'm not entirely sure what that means!)

A social support network is very helpful for alcoholics in recovery. This is also true for the mentally ill. For me, I am trying to be loving and supportive without helping, fixing, or rescuing her.

Robin

meli2005

I was really glad to see your post. MY AH has bipolar II disorder/alcoholism. Many bipolar people have alcohol/drug addiction problems. Same with depression. I'm beginning to think that perhaps a lot of alcoholics have underlying mental disorders that are not being picked up on. It's hard to diagnose when someone is actively drinking. We could not see the bipolar tendencies in my AH until he had some time away from the drinking.

It sounds like you have been through a lot. It's difficult being married to someone with a mental illness and then add substance abuse to the board as well. So you are a strong person, remember that!!!

Yes, society is not very open to mental illnesses. There are a lot of myths. In fact, some of the most unsupporting people of my AH's bipolar disorder have come from AA itself. People have said you really shouldn't be taking those medications. They would not be saying that to a diabetic or something with high blood pressure, but they have issue with someone treating their mental disorder. The untreated mental disorder can lead to more alcohol abuse and alcohol abuse can lead to feelings of depression, they feed off of each other, etc. I get upset when I hear some of the comments that have been said to him at AA, these people should really not be talking if they don't know what they are talking about.

TomsGirl

Meli, I guess AA meetings aren't immune to the ignorant. I hope your husband can disregard their comments and just consider's the source. But as we all know many people love to pontificate on issues they have absolutely no knowlege of or experience with. When I get around those types I just press my "mute" button. lol

equus

I think when it comes to detaching and mental health the main thing is to take pressure off either way and let the person decide for themselves. There are many issues where I do detach but also some where I've felt it's right and needed for me to be involved. I think where I see aproblem is when someone else who isn't close to the situation and doesn't have any experience with mental illness tells me I shouldn't be involved - like I shouldn't go with D to the docs or counselling even if he and the counsellor/doctor want me there.

Also when things have been really bad - we live together and because I'm in the position to keep some routine going my gut tells me that's right, or when he really did want to keep going out but wasn't doing alone to go with him.

I would just argue that it's up to us without being judged to make the best decisions we can in our situation - follow the advice of proffessionals and not have to defend that. Does that make sense? When things have been really rough, I've had enough on my plate without having to justify everything with the minority in order to share and talk - my mute button is faulty!!

BlueMoon

nodding to equus's post! (yep yep yep)

in the past, there were PLENTY of times that I *NEEDED* my AH to come to my pdoc appts with me. My bi-polarality (he he he) was at it's all time worst and there was no way I could've gone into a 30min appt and explain the things that the pdoc needed to know in order to help me - it'd have taken me all day and I still would've forgotten the important stuff. I think it also gave the pdoc a unique view of what was going on inside me - he'd have AH's version AND my version. Heck, *I* thought it was interesting! But I'll bet it wouldn't work for everyone.

Bottom line?? I don't think there IS a black/white or right/wrong answer. The diseases of mental health and the disease of addiction don't work that way, why would the answers??

Blessings,
Blue