Thoughts on Empathy
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Thoughts on Empathy
So many new comers lately. Glad you found us. Sorry you needed to.
I've noticed many people mention how their addicted spouse will tell you how you make THEM feel. How THEY are sad or mad or dejected or depressed or anxious or scared or whatever other negative thing it is they have going on. They do this so that they can manipulate us...and so they can use it as an excuse to drink. (Despite that it is the drinking contributes deeply, and chemically, to feeling those awful emotions) That is alcoholic behavior 101. I believe them, they do feel all those negative things and I know that is why they self medicate. I have empathy for them, it has to suck to feel so broken that you feel the need to drown yourself in poison, disregarding what it does to oneself and your loved ones. That is brutally heartbreaking.
However, that same addicted person, shows no empathy towards how WE feel. Even if they do acknowledge their wrongdoings, when they keep repeating those same patterns, despite knowing all the chaos it is causing around them, we are well within our rights to protect ourselves and our children from that chaos. An adult who can show no empathy, for whatever reason, even a sober person, is a very unhealthy human being.
I can remember telling my alcoholic husband how he would make me feel all those same kinds of feelings, angry, scared, sad, frustrated etc.. he would just angrily turn that around on me and yell how me telling him that just made him feel worse and want to drink even more. Which would then make me feel bad... and (wrongly) responsible... and the cycle would continue.. the wheel would turn and the stomach would churn... for YEARS
At one time, during an argument about his behavior, I asked him to "Just put yourself in my shoes for five minutes, imagine what it feels like to be me!".... his response," WHY THE F*** WOULD I WANT TO DO THAT???"...throwing up his hands and stomping outside to go putter around("secretly" drink) in his shop.
So ya, whytf would he want to do that. Why would he want to imagine what it felt like to be in his wife's skin? He already felt bad enough, he didn't want to acknowledge making me feel those same ways. THAT would not be conducive to feeding his demons...didn't want to have to feel them wriggling around, just pour some more booze on 'em. It's a dastardly disease.
Everybody's feelings matter. Of course this includes the alcoholic too...but by no means should their feelings take precedence over any other person, not over spouse, or child, or parent, or friend, or neighbor or anyone else. We have a right to feel what we feel, we have a right to expect our loved ones to empathize and respect those feelings. We do not have a right, any more than they do, to use our feelings to manipulate others. For a while I was just as guilty of that as he was ..(and that my friends is Codie behavior 101)
But here's the thing, an active addict will never empathize with how you are feeling. That means, you HAVE to empathize with yourself. Acknowledge your feelings. Honor them. Trust your instincts, even the ones that upset you, maybe them most of all. I didn't listen to my instincts until they were literally kicking my @ss with an anxiety ("danger! danger! danger!") disorder. In my case, even once I was being medicated for said anxiety disorder, my alcoholic ex husband, told me I was just going to have to "take more of it or find a new drug that worked better because I'm obviously not going to change my ways" (direct quote). This is what life with an alcoholic will devolve into if they don't choose to get well. Eventually I did choose to look after my own mental and emotional health, which in my case, meant untangling myself from a 26year long relationship. Hardest, most painful decision of my life.
We all deserve respect. A person who can't show you empathy, is not respecting you. A person who can't respect themselves', cannot show proper respect to anyone else and unfortunately, anyone who is an active addict, is not respecting themselves most of all. We can't force them to be empathetic or respectful when they are deep inside their own illness, it's just the nature of the addiction beast... but we can, and we must be empathetic and respectful to ourselves or we end up just as sick as they are. I did. It was a long hard slog to get out of that muck.
A huge part of my self-care during my own healing journey, was participating here on SRF&F. People here "get it". People here DO have empathy for what everyone is feeling. To know people understood and empathized with what I was feeling... for them to care enough to help guide me through the realizations...It was such a breath of fresh air. A life line out helping me out the F.O.G. (fear, obligation, guilt) I will be forever grateful for this forum, not just what it taught me, but also for CARING enough to teach me.
I hope all our new comers will continue to hang out with us here...whether you choose remain in or leave troubled relationships, this is a place of care and support, we can all use more of that in these troubled times.
Just my thoughts for today.
*group hug*
I've noticed many people mention how their addicted spouse will tell you how you make THEM feel. How THEY are sad or mad or dejected or depressed or anxious or scared or whatever other negative thing it is they have going on. They do this so that they can manipulate us...and so they can use it as an excuse to drink. (Despite that it is the drinking contributes deeply, and chemically, to feeling those awful emotions) That is alcoholic behavior 101. I believe them, they do feel all those negative things and I know that is why they self medicate. I have empathy for them, it has to suck to feel so broken that you feel the need to drown yourself in poison, disregarding what it does to oneself and your loved ones. That is brutally heartbreaking.
However, that same addicted person, shows no empathy towards how WE feel. Even if they do acknowledge their wrongdoings, when they keep repeating those same patterns, despite knowing all the chaos it is causing around them, we are well within our rights to protect ourselves and our children from that chaos. An adult who can show no empathy, for whatever reason, even a sober person, is a very unhealthy human being.
I can remember telling my alcoholic husband how he would make me feel all those same kinds of feelings, angry, scared, sad, frustrated etc.. he would just angrily turn that around on me and yell how me telling him that just made him feel worse and want to drink even more. Which would then make me feel bad... and (wrongly) responsible... and the cycle would continue.. the wheel would turn and the stomach would churn... for YEARS
At one time, during an argument about his behavior, I asked him to "Just put yourself in my shoes for five minutes, imagine what it feels like to be me!".... his response," WHY THE F*** WOULD I WANT TO DO THAT???"...throwing up his hands and stomping outside to go putter around("secretly" drink) in his shop.
So ya, whytf would he want to do that. Why would he want to imagine what it felt like to be in his wife's skin? He already felt bad enough, he didn't want to acknowledge making me feel those same ways. THAT would not be conducive to feeding his demons...didn't want to have to feel them wriggling around, just pour some more booze on 'em. It's a dastardly disease.
Everybody's feelings matter. Of course this includes the alcoholic too...but by no means should their feelings take precedence over any other person, not over spouse, or child, or parent, or friend, or neighbor or anyone else. We have a right to feel what we feel, we have a right to expect our loved ones to empathize and respect those feelings. We do not have a right, any more than they do, to use our feelings to manipulate others. For a while I was just as guilty of that as he was ..(and that my friends is Codie behavior 101)
But here's the thing, an active addict will never empathize with how you are feeling. That means, you HAVE to empathize with yourself. Acknowledge your feelings. Honor them. Trust your instincts, even the ones that upset you, maybe them most of all. I didn't listen to my instincts until they were literally kicking my @ss with an anxiety ("danger! danger! danger!") disorder. In my case, even once I was being medicated for said anxiety disorder, my alcoholic ex husband, told me I was just going to have to "take more of it or find a new drug that worked better because I'm obviously not going to change my ways" (direct quote). This is what life with an alcoholic will devolve into if they don't choose to get well. Eventually I did choose to look after my own mental and emotional health, which in my case, meant untangling myself from a 26year long relationship. Hardest, most painful decision of my life.
We all deserve respect. A person who can't show you empathy, is not respecting you. A person who can't respect themselves', cannot show proper respect to anyone else and unfortunately, anyone who is an active addict, is not respecting themselves most of all. We can't force them to be empathetic or respectful when they are deep inside their own illness, it's just the nature of the addiction beast... but we can, and we must be empathetic and respectful to ourselves or we end up just as sick as they are. I did. It was a long hard slog to get out of that muck.
A huge part of my self-care during my own healing journey, was participating here on SRF&F. People here "get it". People here DO have empathy for what everyone is feeling. To know people understood and empathized with what I was feeling... for them to care enough to help guide me through the realizations...It was such a breath of fresh air. A life line out helping me out the F.O.G. (fear, obligation, guilt) I will be forever grateful for this forum, not just what it taught me, but also for CARING enough to teach me.
I hope all our new comers will continue to hang out with us here...whether you choose remain in or leave troubled relationships, this is a place of care and support, we can all use more of that in these troubled times.
Just my thoughts for today.
*group hug*
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Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 127
My recent ex will be 2 years sober in August. I never dated him as a drinker. But I met him a few weeks after and we chatted only for quite a few months. He has come and gone out My life 4 times. The last time was 6 weeks ago when we finally broke up.
In terms of him being sober id say he was useless at expressing emotions in a healthy way. He had a very hard time accepting his behaviour was potentially causing problems for me. He didn't feel he should explain himself. He hated being questioned. He was not so much a liar as he was deceitful.
He had this ex that he had broken up with in 2019. He was clinging to the past. He had done wrong by her. Messaged other women. They argued over money and drink was an issue with them. She liked her social life without him. Clearly not suited as a couple in terms of their social lives. Then it finally destroyed them. Understandably when he got sober he had to deal with old emotions. But he point blank refused to listen or care when I tried to set out a fair plan in regards to his contact with his ex.
she was having a hard time accepting me as the new woman. He was messaging her and she was watching me on social media. I expressed to him most months that I felt currently they were emotionally attached. I asked at one point if it was best for me to step back so that they could discuss their feelings and look at whether they could get back on track. It was met with anger. Denial. Me being insecure.
I could have shaken him at times. I wanted to scream at him that he was allowing his ex girlfriend to remain in our lives. She may aswel have been sat on the side board or in the bed with us. This watching just saying hi. This was emotional texts. 3 kisses on the texts. Her hating me and him somehow managing her. He wanted to keep her in his life because of what he had put her through. Yet here I was. His new partner. Doing everything for him and he was more bothered about that bond with her than me.
He was heartless. He'd throw me out the house. Blame me for all our problems. He'd say horrible words. He just couldn't understand how hard it was for me feeling like I was no where near what she meant to him. I remember asking if we could put our relationship on Facebook. He refused and made out I was being jealous. I cried with frustration sometimes and it was like I was invisible.
I was buying his food. Giving him intimacy. Sharing his bed. Loving him. Supporting him. Yet my pain was never sorted. He'd never comfort me. He never could see it. I didn't want to stop him saying hi to his ex. But I did want them to back off and allow space until they were both unfazed by the other starting again.
I strongly believe even sober alcoholics don't always react nicely. He caused me alot of hurt stress and pain. It wasn't easy at all.
In terms of him being sober id say he was useless at expressing emotions in a healthy way. He had a very hard time accepting his behaviour was potentially causing problems for me. He didn't feel he should explain himself. He hated being questioned. He was not so much a liar as he was deceitful.
He had this ex that he had broken up with in 2019. He was clinging to the past. He had done wrong by her. Messaged other women. They argued over money and drink was an issue with them. She liked her social life without him. Clearly not suited as a couple in terms of their social lives. Then it finally destroyed them. Understandably when he got sober he had to deal with old emotions. But he point blank refused to listen or care when I tried to set out a fair plan in regards to his contact with his ex.
she was having a hard time accepting me as the new woman. He was messaging her and she was watching me on social media. I expressed to him most months that I felt currently they were emotionally attached. I asked at one point if it was best for me to step back so that they could discuss their feelings and look at whether they could get back on track. It was met with anger. Denial. Me being insecure.
I could have shaken him at times. I wanted to scream at him that he was allowing his ex girlfriend to remain in our lives. She may aswel have been sat on the side board or in the bed with us. This watching just saying hi. This was emotional texts. 3 kisses on the texts. Her hating me and him somehow managing her. He wanted to keep her in his life because of what he had put her through. Yet here I was. His new partner. Doing everything for him and he was more bothered about that bond with her than me.
He was heartless. He'd throw me out the house. Blame me for all our problems. He'd say horrible words. He just couldn't understand how hard it was for me feeling like I was no where near what she meant to him. I remember asking if we could put our relationship on Facebook. He refused and made out I was being jealous. I cried with frustration sometimes and it was like I was invisible.
I was buying his food. Giving him intimacy. Sharing his bed. Loving him. Supporting him. Yet my pain was never sorted. He'd never comfort me. He never could see it. I didn't want to stop him saying hi to his ex. But I did want them to back off and allow space until they were both unfazed by the other starting again.
I strongly believe even sober alcoholics don't always react nicely. He caused me alot of hurt stress and pain. It wasn't easy at all.
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Join Date: May 2010
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Addicts and alcoholics are selfish by nature because it's always about them and their high. The focus of their day tends to go towards keeping their current high/state or the next one. Throw in some impairment from intoxication not unusual they could be oblivious to a lot of things
I'd think just like the alcoholic would have to want to really sober up for themselves/own initiative the same can be said for any kind of amends. But they have to want to.
I'd consider their lack of empathy a indicator of where they really stand, who they really are and/or character. Use it as a tool or gauge for yourself.
I'd think just like the alcoholic would have to want to really sober up for themselves/own initiative the same can be said for any kind of amends. But they have to want to.
I'd consider their lack of empathy a indicator of where they really stand, who they really are and/or character. Use it as a tool or gauge for yourself.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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Originally Posted by thequest 
Addicts and alcoholics are selfish by nature because it's always about them and their high. The focus of their day tends to go towards keeping their current high/state or the next one. Throw in some impairment from intoxication not unusual they could be oblivious to a lot of things
I'd think just like the alcoholic would have to want to really sober up for themselves/own initiative the same can be said for any kind of amends. But they have to want to.
I'd consider their lack of empathy a indicator of where they really stand, who they really are and/or character. Use it as a tool or gauge for yourself.
I'd think just like the alcoholic would have to want to really sober up for themselves/own initiative the same can be said for any kind of amends. But they have to want to.
I'd consider their lack of empathy a indicator of where they really stand, who they really are and/or character. Use it as a tool or gauge for yourself.
Yes, when people talk about their spouse/partner getting sober (wishing they were), I often think, be careful what you wish for. Getting sober doesn't mean getting "right".
I also think of alcoholism as a mental illness. Mental Illness doesn't really leave room for empathy for others.
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Join Date: Apr 2022
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Thank you for posting this.
I admit I do struggle with understanding this. How can he not care what he has done to me and the kids? What he continues to do to the kids (showing them he doesn't care by not following the court order and by not seeing them)? I cannot wrap my head around it, but I guess it's not really for me to understand in that way, it's just something for me to accept.
The kids and I are doing well, though. I will keep focusing on that.
I admit I do struggle with understanding this. How can he not care what he has done to me and the kids? What he continues to do to the kids (showing them he doesn't care by not following the court order and by not seeing them)? I cannot wrap my head around it, but I guess it's not really for me to understand in that way, it's just something for me to accept.
The kids and I are doing well, though. I will keep focusing on that.
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Addiction is an overleaf to personality—it isn’t the person themself. Yes, addicts in addiction are undeniably selfish, but how a person behaves sober may have more to do with who they were before addiction—i.e. How they were raised, their moral values, their level of maturity (which addiction really can affect negatively).
There are plenty of people who lack empathy that may never have been addicted to anything.
I guess my point is that while addiction and selfishness are definitely shown to be correlative, it isn’t necessary a cause / effect in that all addicts no longer in active addiction lack empathy.
Some people are just selfish jerks, addiction or no addiction. . .
There are plenty of people who lack empathy that may never have been addicted to anything.
I guess my point is that while addiction and selfishness are definitely shown to be correlative, it isn’t necessary a cause / effect in that all addicts no longer in active addiction lack empathy.
Some people are just selfish jerks, addiction or no addiction. . .
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Join Date: Jul 2021
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye13
I guess my point is that while addiction and selfishness are definitely shown to be correlative, it isn’t necessary a cause / effect in that all addicts no longer in active addiction lack empathy.
Some people are just selfish jerks, addiction or no addiction. . .
Some people are just selfish jerks, addiction or no addiction. . .
Sometimes we get caught up in these cycles of codependency and wanting to understand, that we don't realise that some people just are selfish jerks.
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Oh, I absolutely agree that there are plenty of people, who if you subtract their addictions, would still be problematic in their behaviors. Addiction isn't the only thing that makes people act selfishly. Some folks are just wired differently. It was my experience, that when my alcoholic ex husband was white knuckling a period of sobriety, his moods and behaviors were worse than when he was actively drinking, and my own anxiety ran higher during those times too. I've met life long sober people who were insufferable jerks!
My point of this post wasn't to "pick on" the alcoholics, but rather to explain that expecting them to understand and react to that understanding with any empathy, is an exercise in futility. Whether they are drinking or dry drunk, you won't get the kind of empathy from them you would from a person with a healthy mind... SO you have to take extra pains to make sure you are being EMPATHETIC TO YOURSELF (not to mean self-pity)... part of that self-kindness is letting go of expectations that they can not fulfill. It isn't something that came naturally to me, I really had to work at it. I caused myself a boat load of extra grief because of my own unwillingness to understand he wasn't JUST being a selfish jerk, he couldn't not be, considering how he was selfishly choosing to stay sick with a disease that breeds selfishness.
Murky waters!
They can't/don't spend any measurable amount of time concerning themselves with our emotional well being, so we have to make sure we are validating ourselves and getting support from others who can and do care.
My point of this post wasn't to "pick on" the alcoholics, but rather to explain that expecting them to understand and react to that understanding with any empathy, is an exercise in futility. Whether they are drinking or dry drunk, you won't get the kind of empathy from them you would from a person with a healthy mind... SO you have to take extra pains to make sure you are being EMPATHETIC TO YOURSELF (not to mean self-pity)... part of that self-kindness is letting go of expectations that they can not fulfill. It isn't something that came naturally to me, I really had to work at it. I caused myself a boat load of extra grief because of my own unwillingness to understand he wasn't JUST being a selfish jerk, he couldn't not be, considering how he was selfishly choosing to stay sick with a disease that breeds selfishness.
Murky waters!
They can't/don't spend any measurable amount of time concerning themselves with our emotional well being, so we have to make sure we are validating ourselves and getting support from others who can and do care.
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Totally agree with your prescription for self-empathy & care and connecting with others who can respond in healthy ways SmallButMighty—I didn’t think you were “picking on” alcoholics, but sharing your experience and what you have learned in living through a very difficult situation
I truly appreciate how difficult it is trying to extract acknowledgment, let alone empathy, from several of the alcoholics in my life, especially my mother. It’s murky, like you say. Yet all is not in vain if we can learn and grow, and keep our compassion for ourselves and others in that process. . .
I truly appreciate how difficult it is trying to extract acknowledgment, let alone empathy, from several of the alcoholics in my life, especially my mother. It’s murky, like you say. Yet all is not in vain if we can learn and grow, and keep our compassion for ourselves and others in that process. . .
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I just want to add that part of my learning in the middle of this was about empathy and overidentifying with my loved one's feelings to try and create a situation that he would not want to drink. It is only in retrospect that I can appreciate that is not mine. He needed to drink regardless of my role in his life.
Part of my learning though was that I could try 18 ways to express myself around my feelings - and he was not in a place that he could hear them. I took it very personally that he could not and just kept trying to come up with a different way to say it so it would be heard. I am not saying I don't have responsibility in my communication. I however overidentified that all of the miscommunication was in my control. For me the empathy and communication felt, and I behaved similarly.
When I allowed responsibility to land more appropriately it worked better, but that was my own recovery work for a long time. Keeping that effort on me was really challenging.
Part of my learning though was that I could try 18 ways to express myself around my feelings - and he was not in a place that he could hear them. I took it very personally that he could not and just kept trying to come up with a different way to say it so it would be heard. I am not saying I don't have responsibility in my communication. I however overidentified that all of the miscommunication was in my control. For me the empathy and communication felt, and I behaved similarly.
When I allowed responsibility to land more appropriately it worked better, but that was my own recovery work for a long time. Keeping that effort on me was really challenging.
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The alcoholic who is in pain is the only person who can help himself. It doesn't matter what I think or believe, they have to take the action of getting help in stopping drinking. In the meantime, I take care of myself by going to Alanon and working the program. If I must leave I will do it.
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I have been divorced over a year now and am still trying to come to an economic settlement with the ex who stayed in the family home. I have an offer on part of the property and am trying to get my ex to agree to sell that part and he can keep the rest and then we are done. Of course he won't cooperate and is complaining about all the things he will have to give up if we sell that part of the property. I was discussing it with my son and I got a bit frustrated and said "you know we always hear about what it means for dad. No one ever seems to consider mum and what she needs"
my son said, mum he doesn't give a **** about you. He never thinks about what it means for you and he really doesn't care about you.
quite shocking to hear and not said with any malice on my son's part. he was just stating the facts. He said better for me that I accept the facts and stop looking for something (empathy) that I´m never going to get from his dad. Out of the mouths of babes!!!
I cried. It was hard. But my son is right. My son hugged me. I made a decision. I accepted the facts and I made a call to the lawyer. So its back to court. My empathy, for my ex, has meant I have tried to protect him from the court. He just uses my empathy for him to get what he wants.
my son said, mum he doesn't give a **** about you. He never thinks about what it means for you and he really doesn't care about you.
quite shocking to hear and not said with any malice on my son's part. he was just stating the facts. He said better for me that I accept the facts and stop looking for something (empathy) that I´m never going to get from his dad. Out of the mouths of babes!!!
I cried. It was hard. But my son is right. My son hugged me. I made a decision. I accepted the facts and I made a call to the lawyer. So its back to court. My empathy, for my ex, has meant I have tried to protect him from the court. He just uses my empathy for him to get what he wants.
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I often see a saying in the recovery community -
empathy without boundaries is self destruction.
Sure we can have empathy for others but not let it destroy us in the process.
Or - relating to our own sickness as codependents - is it empathy or is it us trying to use others to make ourselves feel worthy and better about ourselves?
empathy without boundaries is self destruction.
Sure we can have empathy for others but not let it destroy us in the process.
Or - relating to our own sickness as codependents - is it empathy or is it us trying to use others to make ourselves feel worthy and better about ourselves?
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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I have seen, experienced, and offered “healthy” empathy which is being open enough to emotionally connect with others in a supportive, loving way that is mutual, or sometimes simply felt without any expectations or even being demonstrably visible.
That hasn’t happened nearly as often as the “unhealthy” performative “empathy” which expects reciprocation, acknowledgment, accolades, etc. which is more along the lines of what you describe as arising out of codependency PW—
So I believe the real thing is possible, and is intrinsic to our very being, but it gets distorted and too often turned into emotional capital.
I don’t believe that I am so damaged that I cannot offer / accept the healthy kind, but I do know I have to be mindful of motives (and not just mine) in my interactions which might include empathy. . .
That hasn’t happened nearly as often as the “unhealthy” performative “empathy” which expects reciprocation, acknowledgment, accolades, etc. which is more along the lines of what you describe as arising out of codependency PW—
So I believe the real thing is possible, and is intrinsic to our very being, but it gets distorted and too often turned into emotional capital.
I don’t believe that I am so damaged that I cannot offer / accept the healthy kind, but I do know I have to be mindful of motives (and not just mine) in my interactions which might include empathy. . .
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye13
I have seen, experienced, and offered “healthy” empathy which is being open enough to emotionally connect with others in a supportive, loving way that is mutual, or sometimes simply felt without any expectations or even being demonstrably visible.
That hasn’t happened nearly as often as the “unhealthy” performative “empathy” which expects reciprocation, acknowledgment, accolades, etc. which is more along the lines of what you describe as arising out of codependency PW—
So I believe the real thing is possible, and is intrinsic to our very being, but it gets distorted and too often turned into emotional capital.
I don’t believe that I am so damaged that I cannot offer / accept the healthy kind, but I do know I have to be mindful of motives (and not just mine) in my interactions which might include empathy. . .
That hasn’t happened nearly as often as the “unhealthy” performative “empathy” which expects reciprocation, acknowledgment, accolades, etc. which is more along the lines of what you describe as arising out of codependency PW—
So I believe the real thing is possible, and is intrinsic to our very being, but it gets distorted and too often turned into emotional capital.
I don’t believe that I am so damaged that I cannot offer / accept the healthy kind, but I do know I have to be mindful of motives (and not just mine) in my interactions which might include empathy. . .
I always examine my motives, if I feel an emotional surge of wanting to have "empathy". Is it really empathy or is it me judging, me looking to feel superior, me looking to manipulate by by using transactional empathy etc.
Usually for me it comes back to the best thing for me to do is keep my side of the street clean and mind my own business. I learnt this in Al-anon.
I am grateful that I have two very loving relationships in my life, they are grounded on mutual respect. On a level playing field of respect rather than empathy. Equals.
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I really needed to read this thread today. My ex of 3months has recently been pushing for us to reconcile - the previous 2 break-ups were also about her drinking, but initiated by her, because I was standing between her and her first love. This last break-up was mutual and when she asked about reuniting I maintained firmly upon condition of sobriety. She was quick to point to 'moderation' (which has been unsuccessful in the past) and then proceeded to tell me about all of my behaviours that scared and silenced her (and of course I'm an imperfect person and I believe her when she sees I too need work on change). I've also been blamed for some of the more destructive rounds drinking (cars being written off, cheating etc etc) and have also previously felt confusion around whether she was right (she wasn't). I felt myself being oddly drawn into the same confusion (manipulation) that if I changed my behaviours perhaps she'd stop drinking. But luckily we've been down this road several times and it makes very little difference what I do, or don't do with regards to her drinking.
I was also told I should show more compassion for her, because of her drinking. And I've recently come to realise, the person I've shown the least compassion for is myself.
Thank you also for pointing out the lack of maturity and how alcohol affects a person's development. She has been drinking at least a bottle, or two of wine every night for the past 10 years - and having had some space from the chaos creates by alcohol, I've also realised how childish and self-centred a lot of her behaviour was even when she was sober. Although, can you really separate a sober and a drunken version of a person who is in active addiction?
I still miss her like crazy.
I was also told I should show more compassion for her, because of her drinking. And I've recently come to realise, the person I've shown the least compassion for is myself.
Thank you also for pointing out the lack of maturity and how alcohol affects a person's development. She has been drinking at least a bottle, or two of wine every night for the past 10 years - and having had some space from the chaos creates by alcohol, I've also realised how childish and self-centred a lot of her behaviour was even when she was sober. Although, can you really separate a sober and a drunken version of a person who is in active addiction?
I still miss her like crazy.
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Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 316
I used to do that, separate who he was when he was drinking from when he was sober. I didn't realize consciously that I was doing that until someone on here pointed out they are ONE person, the liar who is drinking and behaving poorly is the SAME person as the one who is sober. And then once you wrap your head around that, you begin to realize that the person an active alcoholic is when they are sober isn't even who they would be if they ultimately stop drinking. At the end of the day you miss an idea of her, a potential version of her, that doesn't even exist.
You are making the right decision. Stay the course and keep moving away from her. In time you'll see you dodged a major bullet if you focus on finding a healthy relationship with someone who is capable of being a good partner.
You are making the right decision. Stay the course and keep moving away from her. In time you'll see you dodged a major bullet if you focus on finding a healthy relationship with someone who is capable of being a good partner.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,648
Originally Posted by Beth38
I still miss her like crazy.
Maybe during the day, before she has had her 2 bottles of wine, she's kind of nice and funny and not too hard to get along with? Maybe that is the person you want to be around?
But as FWN mentioned, your AP is not two people, she is one person. You don't get to have one or the other.
Living with her potential, what could be, what she could be is probably a mistake. You don't even know who she is sober. She may not even know. Even if she doesn't drink all day she isn't really "sober". The brain takes time to heal from alcohol abuse, months at least probably after all this time. Who you think she would be (sober) and who she is may be quite different. What you were getting was her drunk and her kind of drunk.
So you weren't the perfect mate (who is??) and you should have compassion for her being drunk. OK, but you can love her and have compassion for her from a distance. You don't need a front row seat for this.
And yes, if you are looking out for her and she is looking out for her, who is looking out for you?
(Oh and the compassion for her, which I'm sure you have already shown a lot of and the blaming your behaviours - that's Alcoholism 101).
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,648
You're not so pure yourself!
"Following the adage that "the best defense is a good offense" the addict seeks to turn the tables and distract attention from himself by "attacking the attacker," i.e. the individual who attempts to point out to him the reality of his addictive behavior.
Under the spur of necessity to defend their addiction as they are, most addicts possess a keen eye and a sharp tongue for the shortcomings and faults of others - even as they deny or are indifferent to those of themselves. Thus the addict is often almost demonically astute at exploiting the vulnerabilities and Achilles Heels of those who, wittingly or unwittingly, threaten the continuance of his addiction".
Excuses Alcoholics Make
"Following the adage that "the best defense is a good offense" the addict seeks to turn the tables and distract attention from himself by "attacking the attacker," i.e. the individual who attempts to point out to him the reality of his addictive behavior.
Under the spur of necessity to defend their addiction as they are, most addicts possess a keen eye and a sharp tongue for the shortcomings and faults of others - even as they deny or are indifferent to those of themselves. Thus the addict is often almost demonically astute at exploiting the vulnerabilities and Achilles Heels of those who, wittingly or unwittingly, threaten the continuance of his addiction".
Excuses Alcoholics Make
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