Forgiveness.... Take #1,478
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I'm holding steady I think, lol.
I definitely had some challenging moments over the weekend but ended up having some amazing conversations with DD as a result so I hesitate to call it "bad". She had a few very interesting & relevant points from her perspective & I actually wrote a couple of things down so I could go back & reflect on her words later.
It's a very busy Monday for me, but I'll update this soon, or start another thread if it makes more sense.
Thanks for checking in Mango!
I definitely had some challenging moments over the weekend but ended up having some amazing conversations with DD as a result so I hesitate to call it "bad". She had a few very interesting & relevant points from her perspective & I actually wrote a couple of things down so I could go back & reflect on her words later.
It's a very busy Monday for me, but I'll update this soon, or start another thread if it makes more sense.
Thanks for checking in Mango!
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3. 2. 1.
War*hall - I wanna go faster
https://youtu.be/XH1QENuSUx4
No rhyme or reason. Have a beautiful day, my friend.
War*hall - I wanna go faster
https://youtu.be/XH1QENuSUx4
No rhyme or reason. Have a beautiful day, my friend.
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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I'm just reading through all of this and thinking "yes, yes, that too, yes, yes ...". Forgiveness is huge for me too. Here's my thought:
It took so much time and work to get to the point of being angry at the alcoholic instead of constant self-blaming (he drinks because there's something wrong with me ... I must be a terrible spouse/parent because he's so unhappy ... I'm probably just crazy ...) etc. The self-blaming came easily because that was what the alcoholic was telling me, in a very calm, rational, I'm-just-being-honest-for-your-own-good voice. His behavior had to deteriorate to the point where he was unmistakeably bat-country trainwreck crazy before I could countenance the thought that he might have been wrong/lying about and to me for years, and that I had something to be angry about.
(And in a more complicated way, this anger was at the alcoholic zombie-thing that seemed to have destroyed the kind and thoughtful person I married, and taken his place).
For me. getting angry was the beginning of becoming a person who valued herself. It was foundational to my transformation into a semi-healthy recovery-work-in-progress person, as distinct from a complete mess. (For someone else, who didn't have my background and my marriage to an alcoholic, self-worth or self-value might be founded in something else - the high regard of a parent or spouse, religious belief, etc). So to let go of anger - to forgive - for me feels uncomfortably close to knocking out the foundations of my self-esteem and going back into that zone of "I'm not worth much".
What I have managed to let go of is rage - the out-of-control irrational fury that is completely toxic. I don't feel that anymore. I'm still angry, but I'm not enraged and I'm not obsessed. I read a lot about forgiveness and figure, well, if it comes to me, it comes, but I'm not going to force myself to feel something that isn't there (yet, or ever).
It took so much time and work to get to the point of being angry at the alcoholic instead of constant self-blaming (he drinks because there's something wrong with me ... I must be a terrible spouse/parent because he's so unhappy ... I'm probably just crazy ...) etc. The self-blaming came easily because that was what the alcoholic was telling me, in a very calm, rational, I'm-just-being-honest-for-your-own-good voice. His behavior had to deteriorate to the point where he was unmistakeably bat-country trainwreck crazy before I could countenance the thought that he might have been wrong/lying about and to me for years, and that I had something to be angry about.
(And in a more complicated way, this anger was at the alcoholic zombie-thing that seemed to have destroyed the kind and thoughtful person I married, and taken his place).
For me. getting angry was the beginning of becoming a person who valued herself. It was foundational to my transformation into a semi-healthy recovery-work-in-progress person, as distinct from a complete mess. (For someone else, who didn't have my background and my marriage to an alcoholic, self-worth or self-value might be founded in something else - the high regard of a parent or spouse, religious belief, etc). So to let go of anger - to forgive - for me feels uncomfortably close to knocking out the foundations of my self-esteem and going back into that zone of "I'm not worth much".
What I have managed to let go of is rage - the out-of-control irrational fury that is completely toxic. I don't feel that anymore. I'm still angry, but I'm not enraged and I'm not obsessed. I read a lot about forgiveness and figure, well, if it comes to me, it comes, but I'm not going to force myself to feel something that isn't there (yet, or ever).
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I get how embracing anger can be empowering, for sure. Your situation is a perfect example Sasha, thanks for that perspective.
I try my best in these situations to examine the entire spectrum of things I could possibly be feeling in connection to the main topic - even if it's a remote, less than 1% chance of being a factor, I want to make sure I'm not dismissing small stuff out of ignorance, haste or denial. So I'm revisiting some of the stuff from this thread as I continue to unwind this process of forgiveness.
In terms of needing to BE forgiven as a factor in this, I do think I struggle a bit with my own few areas of secret-keeping which was born out of necessity & safety - like my cash-stash. That's not something I'm ready to disclose and I know rationally that makes sense. It's not a significant amount of money - I'm not withholding tens of thousands of dollars, but I want to be able to provide myself with access to solutions if I need to & historically, that HAS been necessary.
So I have stuff on my side of the street that, when I examine it truthfully, are also Lies & Manipulations even if they seem justifiable. This might be an area I need to come to better terms with - I might be projecting a bit & withholding forgiveness as a way of not allowing myself to be ok with my own "lying".
I'm also not ready to be vulnerable by disclosing this info (although I do dip into it regularly to cover household & DD's expenses) = I'm not "there" yet in terms of Trust - not even enough to have a conversation about it yet. It's not a can of worms I want to open. Ok. Noted.
I also said this:
....but, hmmmmm....... maybe this is more on-the-nose than I gave it credit for at first glance. I think I might be (subconsciously/immaturely) holding onto a need to "level the playing field". Like - if I'm going to have to spend so much time putting out fires, I might as well get some enjoyment out of starting a few? Told you - immature.
There's also an outlying factor related to plain 'ol human Fear of Death..... when my father reached true recovery & living a life of amends, he got sick & died just a few short years later. My husband is about to turn the exact age his own father was when HE died suddenly - this pretty much fits the exact scenario for Irrational Fears... as though withholding forgiveness will keep him from some untimely death? Oy.
It's so gross to admit this stuff about myself, even anonymously.
I try my best in these situations to examine the entire spectrum of things I could possibly be feeling in connection to the main topic - even if it's a remote, less than 1% chance of being a factor, I want to make sure I'm not dismissing small stuff out of ignorance, haste or denial. So I'm revisiting some of the stuff from this thread as I continue to unwind this process of forgiveness.
In terms of needing to BE forgiven as a factor in this, I do think I struggle a bit with my own few areas of secret-keeping which was born out of necessity & safety - like my cash-stash. That's not something I'm ready to disclose and I know rationally that makes sense. It's not a significant amount of money - I'm not withholding tens of thousands of dollars, but I want to be able to provide myself with access to solutions if I need to & historically, that HAS been necessary.
So I have stuff on my side of the street that, when I examine it truthfully, are also Lies & Manipulations even if they seem justifiable. This might be an area I need to come to better terms with - I might be projecting a bit & withholding forgiveness as a way of not allowing myself to be ok with my own "lying".
I'm also not ready to be vulnerable by disclosing this info (although I do dip into it regularly to cover household & DD's expenses) = I'm not "there" yet in terms of Trust - not even enough to have a conversation about it yet. It's not a can of worms I want to open. Ok. Noted.
I also said this:
I'm afraid that if I don't deal with this now, it's going to surge back up like molten, hot lava in the form of unresolved resentments/some need for vengeance.
There's also an outlying factor related to plain 'ol human Fear of Death..... when my father reached true recovery & living a life of amends, he got sick & died just a few short years later. My husband is about to turn the exact age his own father was when HE died suddenly - this pretty much fits the exact scenario for Irrational Fears... as though withholding forgiveness will keep him from some untimely death? Oy.
It's so gross to admit this stuff about myself, even anonymously.
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Fs, you have every right to have that emergency stash of funds. you did so as a proactive step against being wiped out by the rash,careless acts of an alcoholic. you aren't secretly buying uber expensive stuff and hiding it in a storage locker. and nobody is going without dinner because of it. knowing you HAVE that private stash can give tremendous peace of mind.
trust is earned. and you may never BE able to fully confidently trust your H again. you can't unknow what you know!
trust is earned. and you may never BE able to fully confidently trust your H again. you can't unknow what you know!
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You know, we all have the same thoughts about levelling playing fields, wanting things to be fair, keep some stuff private, resentments, etc.
My main goal with all negative thinking is to recognize it and use prayer and intention to change it before I go down the rabbit hole of self-flagellation. We could all admit to being exactly the same as you are, because we are. Some of us don't act on things, but the thoughts come up!
Remember when I told you about Mirror Work? Standing and looking into my own eyes and saying, "I love you. I'm sorry. Forgive me. Thank you." ? I've been practicing it again lately because I was feeling niggling little resentments and fears. I got it from a little book called, "The Toltec Way," which was written by a long-time follower of Don Miguel Ruiz and "The Four Agreements." One of the things in that book that really stuck in my craw for a while regarding forgiveness was the theory/postulation that when someone hurts us it was because their brain was telling them that [that action] was what they needed to do at that time. We are called to see them as biologically required at that moment to do whatever it was they did. They were doing what they had to do.
Oh, how I disliked that - but you know what? It's true. They may be 10,000% wrong (according to me) but it was right for them. It was some cascading flow of hormones, genetics, environment, and nurture that led them to that moment. They may have been impulsive or may have misread the cues, but it is what they did. God knows I've made enough mistakes. Who can say they haven't?
My main goal with all negative thinking is to recognize it and use prayer and intention to change it before I go down the rabbit hole of self-flagellation. We could all admit to being exactly the same as you are, because we are. Some of us don't act on things, but the thoughts come up!
Remember when I told you about Mirror Work? Standing and looking into my own eyes and saying, "I love you. I'm sorry. Forgive me. Thank you." ? I've been practicing it again lately because I was feeling niggling little resentments and fears. I got it from a little book called, "The Toltec Way," which was written by a long-time follower of Don Miguel Ruiz and "The Four Agreements." One of the things in that book that really stuck in my craw for a while regarding forgiveness was the theory/postulation that when someone hurts us it was because their brain was telling them that [that action] was what they needed to do at that time. We are called to see them as biologically required at that moment to do whatever it was they did. They were doing what they had to do.
Oh, how I disliked that - but you know what? It's true. They may be 10,000% wrong (according to me) but it was right for them. It was some cascading flow of hormones, genetics, environment, and nurture that led them to that moment. They may have been impulsive or may have misread the cues, but it is what they did. God knows I've made enough mistakes. Who can say they haven't?
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I know that logically anvil - I KNOW THIS... so why the struggle? It's got to be because this action doesn't line up with my expectations of Self.
I gotta cut myself some slack - that much is clear.
I JUST went back & re-read that thread about mirror work yesterday, btw.
This passage reminds me of the same resistance I had around accepting Agreement #2 - Don't Take Anything Personally, for pretty much the same reasons you listed here. I actually threw the book across the room & it took me years to come back around to accepting/fully understanding this point.
Self-Self-Self .... it all just keeps coming back to me.
I gotta cut myself some slack - that much is clear.
Originally Posted by biminiblue
One of the things in that book that really stuck in my craw for a while regarding forgiveness was the theory/postulation that when someone hurts us it was because their brain was telling them that [that action] was what they needed to do at that time. We are called to see them as biologically required at that moment to do whatever it was they did. They were doing what they had to do.
Oh, how I disliked that - but you know what? It's true. They may be 10,000% wrong (according to me) but it was right for them. It was some cascading flow of hormones, genetics, environment, and nurture that led them to that moment. They may have been impulsive or may have misread the cues, but it is what they did. God knows I've made enough mistakes. Who can say they haven't?
Oh, how I disliked that - but you know what? It's true. They may be 10,000% wrong (according to me) but it was right for them. It was some cascading flow of hormones, genetics, environment, and nurture that led them to that moment. They may have been impulsive or may have misread the cues, but it is what they did. God knows I've made enough mistakes. Who can say they haven't?
This passage reminds me of the same resistance I had around accepting Agreement #2 - Don't Take Anything Personally, for pretty much the same reasons you listed here. I actually threw the book across the room & it took me years to come back around to accepting/fully understanding this point.
Self-Self-Self .... it all just keeps coming back to me.
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I would say it's all about acceptance.
Always Step 1. God puts a period where we place a question mark. I am powerless over _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.
And yeah, I was at the beach standing in knee deep water when I read that, or I likely would have thrown the book too.
I was certainly mad enough.
Always Step 1. God puts a period where we place a question mark. I am powerless over _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.
And yeah, I was at the beach standing in knee deep water when I read that, or I likely would have thrown the book too.
I was certainly mad enough.
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I also wonder if I'm reaching for a comparison to make this more "measurable" (not that this is ok - comparison kills everything it touches - I'm just looking for holes in my process here).
If I can explain this without sounding condescending -
My instinct is to examine everything for like-kind on my side of the street - but I haven't done anything "as big" or "as purposefully hurtful" or whatever qualifier I use..... because it's just not in my deeply-codie background to do such things, so I'm having a hard time touching base with what forgiving those things looks like from the side of having done them.
This isn't one of those things in life where I can say, "well, it's like that time I ________" & use that as a guidance point for how I felt while doing the thing or in any resulting aftermath.
Not to say I'm perfect & never make mistakes - far from it - just that I can't apple-to-apple even what I currently perceive to be my own lies because, hey, they were qualified as proactive/protective/etc like we discussed above.
It also doesn't mean I need to run around making the same kinds of mistakes in order to get past all this... but I guess, for me at least, that feeling of "levelling" is related to gaining empathy in some twisted, majorly effed up way.
I really hope to step away from all of this over the weekend. My brain hurts.
If I can explain this without sounding condescending -
My instinct is to examine everything for like-kind on my side of the street - but I haven't done anything "as big" or "as purposefully hurtful" or whatever qualifier I use..... because it's just not in my deeply-codie background to do such things, so I'm having a hard time touching base with what forgiving those things looks like from the side of having done them.
This isn't one of those things in life where I can say, "well, it's like that time I ________" & use that as a guidance point for how I felt while doing the thing or in any resulting aftermath.
Not to say I'm perfect & never make mistakes - far from it - just that I can't apple-to-apple even what I currently perceive to be my own lies because, hey, they were qualified as proactive/protective/etc like we discussed above.
It also doesn't mean I need to run around making the same kinds of mistakes in order to get past all this... but I guess, for me at least, that feeling of "levelling" is related to gaining empathy in some twisted, majorly effed up way.
I really hope to step away from all of this over the weekend. My brain hurts.
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it does sound like you've devolved a bit into over thinking, over analyzing and over therapuetizing!?? you are not going to find THE answer today that will magically clear it all up and tie a bow on it.
definitely give yourself a break. let it go. nobody is on fire. or on the other side of the door with an ax.
related, sort of....i've been on a mission to downsize/tidy/simplify/declutter/you name it for a while now. i've read, well listened to, many audiobooks on the topic. i have made great starts. and then stopped. for a long time any "change" that was made only i could really see......since hank doesn't check my undie drawer often, he wouldn't notice how i fold my socks and undies, for example!
in fact, holy moly, i just checked the date of one of the early before/after photos i took and it was April 2015!!!!
ok back to my point.....it has only been recently that the latest changes are REALLY started to be truly noticeable. as in more physical space in our home, less "decorative" clutter, more balance and order. i know this because hank has finally noticed. not in 2015, 2016 or 2017...only as we reached the cusp of 2018/2019. it didn't happen overnight nor did it happen all at once.
it took time and many breaks. and i'm nowhere near done yet! but i believe the "breaks" were as important as the actions. time to rest and regroup.
definitely give yourself a break. let it go. nobody is on fire. or on the other side of the door with an ax.
related, sort of....i've been on a mission to downsize/tidy/simplify/declutter/you name it for a while now. i've read, well listened to, many audiobooks on the topic. i have made great starts. and then stopped. for a long time any "change" that was made only i could really see......since hank doesn't check my undie drawer often, he wouldn't notice how i fold my socks and undies, for example!
in fact, holy moly, i just checked the date of one of the early before/after photos i took and it was April 2015!!!!
ok back to my point.....it has only been recently that the latest changes are REALLY started to be truly noticeable. as in more physical space in our home, less "decorative" clutter, more balance and order. i know this because hank has finally noticed. not in 2015, 2016 or 2017...only as we reached the cusp of 2018/2019. it didn't happen overnight nor did it happen all at once.
it took time and many breaks. and i'm nowhere near done yet! but i believe the "breaks" were as important as the actions. time to rest and regroup.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite 
I know that logically anvil - I KNOW THIS... so why the struggle? It's got to be because this action doesn't line up with my expectations of Self.
I gotta cut myself some slack - that much is clear.
I gotta cut myself some slack - that much is clear.
Sometimes things don't appear to line up with our values, challenges what we believe to be our integrity and whenever that comes up we have to examine the why, which you have and are.
So the basic values:
- Honesty
- Kindness to people
- Not participating in gossip
- Not judging my fellow human beings
- Compassion
- etc etc etc
Well the 'honesty" one is getting tromped all over by stashing money.
What also should be on that list of values is:
- Protecting myself
As with all values, we have to review from time to time and question our motives. It is absolutely clear what your motives were and are here FS and they are not negatively self-serving.
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A good thread FS
Forgiveness is for self, but resistance to change is hard. I hold onto pain, because it is so familiar- it is MINE!
To let go.
That is the bit I cannot do (yet, although I work on it)
It takes for me- a decision, that regardless of what it takes- it is what I want to do. Is a friend still one- after screwing up with booze for the umpteenth time? Does one take the high ground and state the friendship is stronger than the problem being faced that time?
If life was that easy.
Such questions can not have absolute answers, but hinge on balance.
What is the right thing for you ?
Forgiveness is for self, but resistance to change is hard. I hold onto pain, because it is so familiar- it is MINE!
To let go.
That is the bit I cannot do (yet, although I work on it)
It takes for me- a decision, that regardless of what it takes- it is what I want to do. Is a friend still one- after screwing up with booze for the umpteenth time? Does one take the high ground and state the friendship is stronger than the problem being faced that time?
If life was that easy.
Such questions can not have absolute answers, but hinge on balance.
What is the right thing for you ?
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