Al-Anon vs AA and personal recovery
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Join Date: Jan 2014
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Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr 
And yet you blasted her on social media? If you're a recovering alcoholic go to AA, which does a terrific job with the steps. You don't have to have direct contact with her.
I claim progress, not perfection.
I lost my cool and lashed out because I was hurt and helpless and angry.
I do go to AA
I work the steps
Turns out, I’m human and I’m not perfect.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by NYCDoglvr
And yet you blasted her on social media? If you're a recovering alcoholic go to AA, which does a terrific job with the steps. You don't have to have direct contact with her.
Whose diagnosis is this? If she has never been diagnosed with anything, you don't have any business diagnosing her. If she has been diagnosed with something and her doctor said that she didn't need treatment or that it was optional, it means that her diagnosis is so mild, treatment is not necessary. In any case, this is not your problem.
Maybe I am not understanding something here... why do you have to have counseling together? It is possible that the continued contact with you is triggering her and making her reluctant to cooperate because continued contact gets in the way of her healing? Are you calling at inappropriate times so that you can't talk to the kids because those times are inconvenient for her? I assume that she is a single parent now, which means that if you call at ANY time, it throws off her schedule and the kids won't have their routine -- does it interrupt homework time or bed time? Are you causing the kids to be difficult for her to parent... what are you saying to them?
Without knowing your history, I would can not tell you if you are getting any useful advice re: documenting things or going to support groups. Although, I am sure you are getting good advice. I can only advise that you limit contact with your ex so that you can both heal.
If you are working a program, you would know that making amends requires more than repeated apologies. If you have lied about your ex, for example, will you go to EVERYONE you lied to her about and setting the record straight? If you have taken money, will you give the money back? If you have missed 10 school sports events, will you do whatever it takes for your kids to trust you again? Those are just examples. I think you know this: it's hard, hard work. If you blast her on social media, I doubt that you have gotten very far in your recovery (sorry) -- to me this means that there are still people out there who believe that your marriage broke down because of her. I can not overstate how detrimental addiction IS to a marriage. ALL marriages can break. ALL of them. Addiction puts the cracks in and makes it easy. The three As kill a marriage (addiction, affairs, abuse). Even if you married someone as notoriously bad tempered as a grunting camel, meaning that they were extremely difficult to live with, addiction will be the straw that breaks both your backs.
Now, I don't know your situation, so I hope that you are not terribly upset by my frankness. I am just saying that you need to let go of control -- of your ex. No matter what you do to set things right, you are not owed her cooperation, forgiveness, or a lapse of her protective or over-protective instinct towards her children (even if she is resentful or traumatized or her sanity is otherwise slightly, temporarily, compromised by resentment and trauma -- I doubt her sanity is fully compromised or the courts would not have let her have the kids). Sadly, you may never be rewarded for doing the right thing. You have to do the right thing because IT IS RIGHT. You have to let go and let god... do god's thing.
Your ex WILL heal but you can't force a timeline for it even if you are ready now. All you can do is focus on being the best father for your kids, respecting your ex's boundaries and staying out of her camel hair, respecting your kids' mother, and staying healthy.
I hope this helps (although you probably don't think it does! Please don't blast me on social media.)
Finally, people like to sign off with "peace" when they have said something particularly harsh. I am not doing to do that, that would almost be a joke. I know you're NOT going to like what I wrote, but I hope you give it some thought.
Congratulations on your work on your recovery.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by FreeOwl
well.... one of her boundaries is I am not allowed to request a call.... ever. I am not allowed contact. Ever. She claims the kids can have contact when they ask.... (as long as they're not in trouble, it's not dinner time, they're not trying to get out of a chore or a host of other things).
The net is - I almost never have contact with them at their mother's, they report being denied when they ask, and it's entirely up to her whim if, when and how any communication is had between us. So yes, I 'broke her boundary' but it's a very sore point because of how unfair and unhealthy a boundary I feel it is.....
The net is - I almost never have contact with them at their mother's, they report being denied when they ask, and it's entirely up to her whim if, when and how any communication is had between us. So yes, I 'broke her boundary' but it's a very sore point because of how unfair and unhealthy a boundary I feel it is.....
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
"would can not tell you"
This should read: can not tell you.
"setting the record straight".
set the record straight.
"not doing to do that".
going to do that.
Arthritis and vision, sorry. Need new glasses.
One more thing: if the deal you are getting now is good (joint custody, 50/50), and you don't want to change that, I would avoid escalating any negative feelings either of you have for each other by going back to court (that's just me... but like I said, I don't know your situation exactly).
This should read: can not tell you.
"setting the record straight".
set the record straight.
"not doing to do that".
going to do that.
Arthritis and vision, sorry. Need new glasses.
One more thing: if the deal you are getting now is good (joint custody, 50/50), and you don't want to change that, I would avoid escalating any negative feelings either of you have for each other by going back to court (that's just me... but like I said, I don't know your situation exactly).
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,103
My opinion is AA is for an obsession with substances and Al-anon is for an obsession with a person.
With both programs, the path to recovery is all about US changing the way we approach life. Changing old habits and coping skills that were counterproductive in our lives and replacing them with new healthy habits.
What do they say about the steps which applies to both programs……………
The first three steps taught me how to give up. Four, five and six taught me how to own up. Seven, eight and nine taught me how to make up. Ten, eleven and twelve taught me how to grow up.
Maybe the counselor suggested you get familiar with a 12-step process because she is not witnessing or hearing those kind of skills from you. Maybe she suggested al-anon because she feels you may be too focused on your ex and what and how she is doing rather than working on your reaction to her behaviors.
You are not in an easy situation by any means and I personally think it is mean of your ex to not allow you contact with your own children. I think that maybe you need to discuss with the counselor/courts and come up with a work around regarding that fact.
Just my opinion, take what you like and leave the rest.
With both programs, the path to recovery is all about US changing the way we approach life. Changing old habits and coping skills that were counterproductive in our lives and replacing them with new healthy habits.
What do they say about the steps which applies to both programs……………
The first three steps taught me how to give up. Four, five and six taught me how to own up. Seven, eight and nine taught me how to make up. Ten, eleven and twelve taught me how to grow up.
Maybe the counselor suggested you get familiar with a 12-step process because she is not witnessing or hearing those kind of skills from you. Maybe she suggested al-anon because she feels you may be too focused on your ex and what and how she is doing rather than working on your reaction to her behaviors.
You are not in an easy situation by any means and I personally think it is mean of your ex to not allow you contact with your own children. I think that maybe you need to discuss with the counselor/courts and come up with a work around regarding that fact.
Just my opinion, take what you like and leave the rest.
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Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
FreeOwl.....how very true!!! I know there have been times when I slipped up and looked at myself and thought, "wow, what did I just say?!"
You are human. You are doing the right things by working the steps and looking inwardly. That in and of itself is HUGE! I think it's really normal to take a slide back every now and then. As long as you catch yourself and you are aware of it, it really does not matter much.
Keep working on YOU. You are doing good stuff! Don't beat yourself up over this.
Big hugs!
You are human. You are doing the right things by working the steps and looking inwardly. That in and of itself is HUGE! I think it's really normal to take a slide back every now and then. As long as you catch yourself and you are aware of it, it really does not matter much.
Keep working on YOU. You are doing good stuff! Don't beat yourself up over this.
Big hugs!
Originally Posted by FreeOwl
Yes, I did.
I claim progress, not perfection.
I lost my cool and lashed out because I was hurt and helpless and angry.
I do go to AA
I work the steps
Turns out, I’m human and I’m not perfect.
I claim progress, not perfection.
I lost my cool and lashed out because I was hurt and helpless and angry.
I do go to AA
I work the steps
Turns out, I’m human and I’m not perfect.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
I'm finding it confusing why a question about the helpfulness of the Al-Anon program turned into one taking FreeOwl's inventory.
He openly admitted he made a mistake & is seeking to correct it. That his reaction was based in anger & resentments & not what he wants to teach his children. He's HERE. He's ASKING for help.
One very important question is how recent is this split? Is this situation still raw & evolving or is this the "normal" that the family has settled into?
Is anyone going to debate that it seems very likely than if FOR NO OTHER REASON than having been married to FO, his ex-wife would benefit at least in some small way from individual counseling or Al-Anon or something?
I'm sorry - I see a lot of potential red flags here on the "Codie Side" of things too, if we're going to see all sides. My life has been FAR MORE IMPACTED by dysfunctional people who refuse to own their side of the street than any addict. Full Stop. My mother suffers from incredible sexual trauma that she refuses to heal & demands that the rest of the world bow to her wounds instead. It makes her toxic in the most basic situation & things dissolve from there.
This isn't directed at any one poster in-thread or otherwise; I just think we're making a mistake if we don't back up & take in the full picture here.
I'll bow out of this now, I'm obviously triggered.
He openly admitted he made a mistake & is seeking to correct it. That his reaction was based in anger & resentments & not what he wants to teach his children. He's HERE. He's ASKING for help.
One very important question is how recent is this split? Is this situation still raw & evolving or is this the "normal" that the family has settled into?
The core reason for this counseling is the children.......... The therapist did recommend therapy for everyone..... my ex refuses. She also now refuses to have the family therapy on "her" weeks because "it's not working" despite what the counselor and the childrens' psychologist say.
I'm sorry - I see a lot of potential red flags here on the "Codie Side" of things too, if we're going to see all sides. My life has been FAR MORE IMPACTED by dysfunctional people who refuse to own their side of the street than any addict. Full Stop. My mother suffers from incredible sexual trauma that she refuses to heal & demands that the rest of the world bow to her wounds instead. It makes her toxic in the most basic situation & things dissolve from there.
This isn't directed at any one poster in-thread or otherwise; I just think we're making a mistake if we don't back up & take in the full picture here.
I'll bow out of this now, I'm obviously triggered.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
((FS))
It's triggery, for sure. We're all wounded, and we all continue to make huge missteps. Blessings to you. There are always eleventy-seven sides to every story.
I'm surprised humans have the ability to have any relationships, to be honest. Seems like people are so focused on themselves, THEIR hurts, their Precious. When I stopped being so sensitive to my own emotions, it was such a relief.
It's exhausting to read over and over and it's the reason I have seriously pulled back on my involvement on SR.
It's triggery, for sure. We're all wounded, and we all continue to make huge missteps. Blessings to you. There are always eleventy-seven sides to every story.
I'm surprised humans have the ability to have any relationships, to be honest. Seems like people are so focused on themselves, THEIR hurts, their Precious. When I stopped being so sensitive to my own emotions, it was such a relief.
It's exhausting to read over and over and it's the reason I have seriously pulled back on my involvement on SR.
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Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 773
She does not want contact. May be beneficial to respect that boundary and stay in your side of the street - does wonders in terms of gaining trust back. I can relate to schedule and single parenting issues and leave XAH alone during his time (although he is free to reach out to me with questions).
I would not worry about her mental health is no longer your “problem”. I work on things in variety of forms and XAH does not know anything about it. He (at times) assumes I don’t and rants about it - and I just let him. No explanation owed there.
Congratulations on your sobriety and good luck in your recovery, I see XAH going through it and it is tough even without dealing of additional pressures/emotions involved with splitting up and co-parenting.
I would not worry about her mental health is no longer your “problem”. I work on things in variety of forms and XAH does not know anything about it. He (at times) assumes I don’t and rants about it - and I just let him. No explanation owed there.
Congratulations on your sobriety and good luck in your recovery, I see XAH going through it and it is tough even without dealing of additional pressures/emotions involved with splitting up and co-parenting.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,146
I still don't understand... why do the children need their separated/divorced parents to be in counselling together? Shouldn't the two of you have no contact other than to organise details of when who is going to pick up which kids... etc? It should be all about organising the time the kids are divided, nothing more. If the kids are traumatised by the split they should see a child counselor. If your ex is traumatised by the split she should see a counselor but since your ex is not the one posting, I can't tell you what she should or should not do.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz
"She drinks but I wouldn’t classify her alcoholic. She suffers from unresolved trauma and has untreated anxiety and depression...."
Whose diagnosis is this? If she has never been diagnosed with anything, you don't have any business diagnosing her. If she has been diagnosed with something and her doctor said that she didn't need treatment or that it was optional, it means that her diagnosis is so mild, treatment is not necessary. In any case, this is not your problem.
Maybe I am not understanding something here... why do you have to have counseling together? It is possible that the continued contact with you is triggering her and making her reluctant to cooperate because continued contact gets in the way of her healing? Are you calling at inappropriate times so that you can't talk to the kids because those times are inconvenient for her? I assume that she is a single parent now, which means that if you call at ANY time, it throws off her schedule and the kids won't have their routine -- does it interrupt homework time or bed time? Are you causing the kids to be difficult for her to parent... what are you saying to them?
Without knowing your history, I would can not tell you if you are getting any useful advice re: documenting things or going to support groups. Although, I am sure you are getting good advice. I can only advise that you limit contact with your ex so that you can both heal.
If you are working a program, you would know that making amends requires more than repeated apologies. If you have lied about your ex, for example, will you go to EVERYONE you lied to her about and setting the record straight? If you have taken money, will you give the money back? If you have missed 10 school sports events, will you do whatever it takes for your kids to trust you again? Those are just examples. I think you know this: it's hard, hard work. If you blast her on social media, I doubt that you have gotten very far in your recovery (sorry) -- to me this means that there are still people out there who believe that your marriage broke down because of her. I can not overstate how detrimental addiction IS to a marriage. ALL marriages can break. ALL of them. Addiction puts the cracks in and makes it easy. The three As kill a marriage (addiction, affairs, abuse). Even if you married someone as notoriously bad tempered as a grunting camel, meaning that they were extremely difficult to live with, addiction will be the straw that breaks both your backs.
Now, I don't know your situation, so I hope that you are not terribly upset by my frankness. I am just saying that you need to let go of control -- of your ex. No matter what you do to set things right, you are not owed her cooperation, forgiveness, or a lapse of her protective or over-protective instinct towards her children (even if she is resentful or traumatized or her sanity is otherwise slightly, temporarily, compromised by resentment and trauma -- I doubt her sanity is fully compromised or the courts would not have let her have the kids). Sadly, you may never be rewarded for doing the right thing. You have to do the right thing because IT IS RIGHT. You have to let go and let god... do god's thing.
Your ex WILL heal but you can't force a timeline for it even if you are ready now. All you can do is focus on being the best father for your kids, respecting your ex's boundaries and staying out of her camel hair, respecting your kids' mother, and staying healthy.
I hope this helps (although you probably don't think it does! Please don't blast me on social media.)
Finally, people like to sign off with "peace" when they have said something particularly harsh. I am not doing to do that, that would almost be a joke. I know you're NOT going to like what I wrote, but I hope you give it some thought.
Congratulations on your work on your recovery.
Whose diagnosis is this? If she has never been diagnosed with anything, you don't have any business diagnosing her. If she has been diagnosed with something and her doctor said that she didn't need treatment or that it was optional, it means that her diagnosis is so mild, treatment is not necessary. In any case, this is not your problem.
Maybe I am not understanding something here... why do you have to have counseling together? It is possible that the continued contact with you is triggering her and making her reluctant to cooperate because continued contact gets in the way of her healing? Are you calling at inappropriate times so that you can't talk to the kids because those times are inconvenient for her? I assume that she is a single parent now, which means that if you call at ANY time, it throws off her schedule and the kids won't have their routine -- does it interrupt homework time or bed time? Are you causing the kids to be difficult for her to parent... what are you saying to them?
Without knowing your history, I would can not tell you if you are getting any useful advice re: documenting things or going to support groups. Although, I am sure you are getting good advice. I can only advise that you limit contact with your ex so that you can both heal.
If you are working a program, you would know that making amends requires more than repeated apologies. If you have lied about your ex, for example, will you go to EVERYONE you lied to her about and setting the record straight? If you have taken money, will you give the money back? If you have missed 10 school sports events, will you do whatever it takes for your kids to trust you again? Those are just examples. I think you know this: it's hard, hard work. If you blast her on social media, I doubt that you have gotten very far in your recovery (sorry) -- to me this means that there are still people out there who believe that your marriage broke down because of her. I can not overstate how detrimental addiction IS to a marriage. ALL marriages can break. ALL of them. Addiction puts the cracks in and makes it easy. The three As kill a marriage (addiction, affairs, abuse). Even if you married someone as notoriously bad tempered as a grunting camel, meaning that they were extremely difficult to live with, addiction will be the straw that breaks both your backs.
Now, I don't know your situation, so I hope that you are not terribly upset by my frankness. I am just saying that you need to let go of control -- of your ex. No matter what you do to set things right, you are not owed her cooperation, forgiveness, or a lapse of her protective or over-protective instinct towards her children (even if she is resentful or traumatized or her sanity is otherwise slightly, temporarily, compromised by resentment and trauma -- I doubt her sanity is fully compromised or the courts would not have let her have the kids). Sadly, you may never be rewarded for doing the right thing. You have to do the right thing because IT IS RIGHT. You have to let go and let god... do god's thing.
Your ex WILL heal but you can't force a timeline for it even if you are ready now. All you can do is focus on being the best father for your kids, respecting your ex's boundaries and staying out of her camel hair, respecting your kids' mother, and staying healthy.
I hope this helps (although you probably don't think it does! Please don't blast me on social media.)
Finally, people like to sign off with "peace" when they have said something particularly harsh. I am not doing to do that, that would almost be a joke. I know you're NOT going to like what I wrote, but I hope you give it some thought.
Congratulations on your work on your recovery.
I say this not to implicate her as at fault but as answer to your question and response to why are we jointly in therapy.... that answer is ‘for the children’.
The ongoing conflict between us and the impact of her untreated and ongoing issues is that the children have developed some really unhealthy patterns. Family therapy has been recommended by their psychologist and I believe it’s both beneficial and necessary to ALL of our progress.
You raise valid points and I appreciate your input. I’m no saint and don’t claim to be. My ex does have issues to address and healing to do - but that’s not mine to own.
Mine is to grow and to learn to heal my own anger and resentment that does get re-created with new conflict along the way. Mine is to accept what I can’t control and to express my truths and boundaries in ways that aren’t hurtful.
I am working a program - but as you probably know it is a lifelong process. Step 10 leads us back to earlier steps and we repeat the process as we grow, as we make mistakes, as we evolve.
In situations where we also have children in the mix and our emotions are all the more deeply entangled with another’s - and where we seek to support their well being - it gets even more challenging.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
‘Peace’
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
Originally Posted by atalose
My opinion is AA is for an obsession with substances and Al-anon is for an obsession with a person.
With both programs, the path to recovery is all about US changing the way we approach life. Changing old habits and coping skills that were counterproductive in our lives and replacing them with new healthy habits.
What do they say about the steps which applies to both programs……………
The first three steps taught me how to give up. Four, five and six taught me how to own up. Seven, eight and nine taught me how to make up. Ten, eleven and twelve taught me how to grow up.
Maybe the counselor suggested you get familiar with a 12-step process because she is not witnessing or hearing those kind of skills from you. Maybe she suggested al-anon because she feels you may be too focused on your ex and what and how she is doing rather than working on your reaction to her behaviors.
You are not in an easy situation by any means and I personally think it is mean of your ex to not allow you contact with your own children. I think that maybe you need to discuss with the counselor/courts and come up with a work around regarding that fact.
Just my opinion, take what you like and leave the rest.
With both programs, the path to recovery is all about US changing the way we approach life. Changing old habits and coping skills that were counterproductive in our lives and replacing them with new healthy habits.
What do they say about the steps which applies to both programs……………
The first three steps taught me how to give up. Four, five and six taught me how to own up. Seven, eight and nine taught me how to make up. Ten, eleven and twelve taught me how to grow up.
Maybe the counselor suggested you get familiar with a 12-step process because she is not witnessing or hearing those kind of skills from you. Maybe she suggested al-anon because she feels you may be too focused on your ex and what and how she is doing rather than working on your reaction to her behaviors.
You are not in an easy situation by any means and I personally think it is mean of your ex to not allow you contact with your own children. I think that maybe you need to discuss with the counselor/courts and come up with a work around regarding that fact.
Just my opinion, take what you like and leave the rest.
Good perspective
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
Originally Posted by FireSprite
I'm finding it confusing why a question about the helpfulness of the Al-Anon program turned into one taking FreeOwl's inventory.
He openly admitted he made a mistake & is seeking to correct it. That his reaction was based in anger & resentments & not what he wants to teach his children. He's HERE. He's ASKING for help.
One very important question is how recent is this split? Is this situation still raw & evolving or is this the "normal" that the family has settled into?
Is anyone going to debate that it seems very likely than if FOR NO OTHER REASON than having been married to FO, his ex-wife would benefit at least in some small way from individual counseling or Al-Anon or something?
I'm sorry - I see a lot of potential red flags here on the "Codie Side" of things too, if we're going to see all sides. My life has been FAR MORE IMPACTED by dysfunctional people who refuse to own their side of the street than any addict. Full Stop. My mother suffers from incredible sexual trauma that she refuses to heal & demands that the rest of the world bow to her wounds instead. It makes her toxic in the most basic situation & things dissolve from there.
This isn't directed at any one poster in-thread or otherwise; I just think we're making a mistake if we don't back up & take in the full picture here.
I'll bow out of this now, I'm obviously triggered.
He openly admitted he made a mistake & is seeking to correct it. That his reaction was based in anger & resentments & not what he wants to teach his children. He's HERE. He's ASKING for help.
One very important question is how recent is this split? Is this situation still raw & evolving or is this the "normal" that the family has settled into?
Is anyone going to debate that it seems very likely than if FOR NO OTHER REASON than having been married to FO, his ex-wife would benefit at least in some small way from individual counseling or Al-Anon or something?
I'm sorry - I see a lot of potential red flags here on the "Codie Side" of things too, if we're going to see all sides. My life has been FAR MORE IMPACTED by dysfunctional people who refuse to own their side of the street than any addict. Full Stop. My mother suffers from incredible sexual trauma that she refuses to heal & demands that the rest of the world bow to her wounds instead. It makes her toxic in the most basic situation & things dissolve from there.
This isn't directed at any one poster in-thread or otherwise; I just think we're making a mistake if we don't back up & take in the full picture here.
I'll bow out of this now, I'm obviously triggered.
So, learning to perpetually let go, be forgiving, be compassionate, accept and to watch them hurt over and over and over and to BE hurt over and over and over is hard.
On the other hand they say the most challenging people are our greatest teaschers so in that regard I try to remind myself to be grateful for her role in my growth. That honestly feels ‘fake’ most of the time.... but I’m willing to keep trying.
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8,637
I appreciate everyone’s input.
What I originally sought was a better understanding of why AlAnon would be different than AA - the steps read the same.....
I got good insight to that and I got a lot of other good perspective.
Your time and thoughts are apprecoated and helpful.
What I originally sought was a better understanding of why AlAnon would be different than AA - the steps read the same.....
I got good insight to that and I got a lot of other good perspective.
Your time and thoughts are apprecoated and helpful.
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