Is this gaslighting?
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Is this gaslighting?
Am I being gaslighted? I think I heard three times in one conversation that I was crazy or lying. I also have this bad habit of being unable to recall specific events during arguments because my brain doesn’t work that way, I guess.
Some context.... next weekend is the weekend before my birthday and my best friend and I planned a fun weekend but I will be gone both nights until pretty late. I was anticipating my husband giving me crap for making him stay up late both nights so I pre emptively found a babysitter. I guess that pissed him off. I can’t win!
If you read my prior posts, he isn’t the most engaged of fathers since he moved out. Heck, when he lived with us he used to escape down to the guest bedroom at 6PM. He sees LO about 8 hrs/wk on average. When I pick LO up from him he’s always in a rush to leave and run away and hide.
RAH was over today to watch LO while I went to get my hair done. We had a conversation that went something like:
Me: The doctor told me to take iron supplements because I’m slightly anemic. I don’t really want to though because I don’t want to be constipated!
Him: You stress out too much. You should start taking Celexa (an antidepressant) too
[silence while I decide how I feel about that comment. This was an intentional jab at my mental health. I told him my therapist suggested I go on an SSRI for a short period of time while my life is so hectic. But he found it as an opportunity to turn blame back on me]
Me: It hurts my feelings when you tell me to take Celexa.
Him: I told you before that I fell in love with the “happy” you and you haven’t been that person in the last few years
Me: I think I’m doing pretty good! So you will only love me if I’m happy all the time?
Him: There are only two things that will fix our relationship... you taking Celexa/being happy and marriage counseling
Me: then why do you never want to do marriage counseling?
[He then tells me basically he can’t afford it and that’s been the reason all along. I can’t remember him ever saying that. He calls me a liar. But in the heat of the moment I can’t remember what his other excuses were so he brushes me off as crazy. (They all blur together. I just remember stupid excuses that were lies... busy... wasn’t ready... want to live apart for x amount of time) ]
Me: and you’re perfect now? There’s nothing about yourself that you need to fix?
Him: I’ve been working on myself for the last year
[i want to say well I can’t tell a difference and that you seem to be getting worse, but I don’t]
Him: and I’m hurt that you don’t think I want to spend time with my son
Me: well you seem to get overwhelmed when you’ve had him for a while so I was trying to be nice
Him: when do I not want to see my son? Give me examples.
Me: ummm you run away pretty quickly when I come to pick him up. I get a call if I’m like 15 minutes late to pick him up.
Him: I’m not running away from him and that was my mom who wanted to call you. Name something else.
Me: I don’t know. [in the heat of the moment I can’t think of anything else....] this isn’t a fair way to have an argument. Making people give you a detailed list of dates and times specific things happened
Him: you can’t think of anything because you’re just making **** up in your head and it isn’t true.
Me: don’t gaslight me
I then walk off because I’m angry. I take a breather and come back to him before he leaves to tell him to keep his opinions of my mental health to himself. I say that both of my therapists say I’m having more anxiety now because WHO WOULDNT?! I’m going through (hopefully) the worst time of my life. He then says “well it’s half your fault too. Relationships are 50/50”
Some context.... next weekend is the weekend before my birthday and my best friend and I planned a fun weekend but I will be gone both nights until pretty late. I was anticipating my husband giving me crap for making him stay up late both nights so I pre emptively found a babysitter. I guess that pissed him off. I can’t win!
If you read my prior posts, he isn’t the most engaged of fathers since he moved out. Heck, when he lived with us he used to escape down to the guest bedroom at 6PM. He sees LO about 8 hrs/wk on average. When I pick LO up from him he’s always in a rush to leave and run away and hide.
RAH was over today to watch LO while I went to get my hair done. We had a conversation that went something like:
Me: The doctor told me to take iron supplements because I’m slightly anemic. I don’t really want to though because I don’t want to be constipated!
Him: You stress out too much. You should start taking Celexa (an antidepressant) too
[silence while I decide how I feel about that comment. This was an intentional jab at my mental health. I told him my therapist suggested I go on an SSRI for a short period of time while my life is so hectic. But he found it as an opportunity to turn blame back on me]
Me: It hurts my feelings when you tell me to take Celexa.
Him: I told you before that I fell in love with the “happy” you and you haven’t been that person in the last few years
Me: I think I’m doing pretty good! So you will only love me if I’m happy all the time?
Him: There are only two things that will fix our relationship... you taking Celexa/being happy and marriage counseling
Me: then why do you never want to do marriage counseling?
[He then tells me basically he can’t afford it and that’s been the reason all along. I can’t remember him ever saying that. He calls me a liar. But in the heat of the moment I can’t remember what his other excuses were so he brushes me off as crazy. (They all blur together. I just remember stupid excuses that were lies... busy... wasn’t ready... want to live apart for x amount of time) ]
Me: and you’re perfect now? There’s nothing about yourself that you need to fix?
Him: I’ve been working on myself for the last year
[i want to say well I can’t tell a difference and that you seem to be getting worse, but I don’t]
Him: and I’m hurt that you don’t think I want to spend time with my son
Me: well you seem to get overwhelmed when you’ve had him for a while so I was trying to be nice
Him: when do I not want to see my son? Give me examples.
Me: ummm you run away pretty quickly when I come to pick him up. I get a call if I’m like 15 minutes late to pick him up.
Him: I’m not running away from him and that was my mom who wanted to call you. Name something else.
Me: I don’t know. [in the heat of the moment I can’t think of anything else....] this isn’t a fair way to have an argument. Making people give you a detailed list of dates and times specific things happened
Him: you can’t think of anything because you’re just making **** up in your head and it isn’t true.
Me: don’t gaslight me
I then walk off because I’m angry. I take a breather and come back to him before he leaves to tell him to keep his opinions of my mental health to himself. I say that both of my therapists say I’m having more anxiety now because WHO WOULDNT?! I’m going through (hopefully) the worst time of my life. He then says “well it’s half your fault too. Relationships are 50/50”
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AutumnMama, that sounds like a very frustrating, not to mention futile conversation. Don't waste your breath, you know? You'll never get through. He's decided he's right, you're wrong, end of story.
I usually can't recall specifics if I'm put on the spot like that. It means nothing. Even if you handed him a spreadsheet showing dates, times, quotes and you had videos he'd still twist it so he's the reasonable one and you're nuts.
It's tempting to say, the next time he gives you advice on a prescription drug to ask to see his medical degree but it's not worth it. He talks out of his a$$ so just don't engage. Try to stick to communication that is absolutely necessary for scheduling.
I usually can't recall specifics if I'm put on the spot like that. It means nothing. Even if you handed him a spreadsheet showing dates, times, quotes and you had videos he'd still twist it so he's the reasonable one and you're nuts.
It's tempting to say, the next time he gives you advice on a prescription drug to ask to see his medical degree but it's not worth it. He talks out of his a$$ so just don't engage. Try to stick to communication that is absolutely necessary for scheduling.
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Hi, AutumnMama.
Agree with 53500 that, whether it’s gaslighting or just being argumentative, it’s not a real productive way to go.
I applaud your willingness to stand up for yourself and let him know when he is being hurtful and , well, a jerk.
But....this is, as you say, an unwinnable argument.
For every observation you make, he will counter with his own.
I would not engage except when necessary. Keep working on your strengths and be well.
Agree with 53500 that, whether it’s gaslighting or just being argumentative, it’s not a real productive way to go.
I applaud your willingness to stand up for yourself and let him know when he is being hurtful and , well, a jerk.
But....this is, as you say, an unwinnable argument.
For every observation you make, he will counter with his own.
I would not engage except when necessary. Keep working on your strengths and be well.
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Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 190
Making a ton of excuses and blaming the problems in your marriage on your unhappiness? He doesn't sound very recovered/recovering...
What you describe here--"being unable to recall specific events during arguments"--sounds exactly like how I felt during many arguments with my AXBF. My ex was a master at manipulation and gaslighting, which is why I always felt so lost and confused in our arguments.
I agree with everyone else who says to minimize the conversations with him in general. It's not possible to reason with an unreasonable person.
What you describe here--"being unable to recall specific events during arguments"--sounds exactly like how I felt during many arguments with my AXBF. My ex was a master at manipulation and gaslighting, which is why I always felt so lost and confused in our arguments.
I agree with everyone else who says to minimize the conversations with him in general. It's not possible to reason with an unreasonable person.
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A belated “sorry”for the formatting... I typed that on my phone! Hah
Is marriage counseling with someone like this even worth it? Will the therapist see what is going on or do I run the risk of him “wooing”them?
Is marriage counseling with someone like this even worth it? Will the therapist see what is going on or do I run the risk of him “wooing”them?
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Join Date: Jun 2017
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I went to couples counseling with my AXBF shortly after our daughter was born. The therapist spent two sessions with him, listening to his BS, and at the end of the second session she said, "I'm sorry, but I can't help you." What she meant was that she can't help someone who doesn't want help. If this is true of your RAH, that he doesn't want help or think that he needs help, then counseling might be a waste of time. Perhaps it would be a better use of your time to get counseling for you.
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Originally Posted by SaveHer 
I went to couples counseling with my AXBF shortly after our daughter was born. The therapist spent two sessions with him, listening to his BS, and at the end of the second session she said, "I'm sorry, but I can't help you." What she meant was that she can't help someone who doesn't want help. If this is true of your RAH, that he doesn't want help or think that he needs help, then counseling might be a waste of time. Perhaps it would be a better use of your time to get counseling for you.
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It can be so powerful to see the truth about your partner through somebody else's eyes, especially a trained professional. The day our therapist told me she couldn't help us was the same day I kicked AXBF out for good. I gave him a couple of months to show some remorse or at least acknowledge all that he had done (or wasn't doing). He just got angrier and more desperate as the days went on, trying every tactic in the book to manipulate his way back into our lives: calling me crazy ("I think you have post-partum depression"), threatening me ("you're gonna get effed up if you do this"), and downplaying everything that had happened ("it wasn't that bad"). Ultimately, I walked away, and it was the hardest and the best decision I've ever made. Honestly, it was my daughter that gave me the strength to leave. I'd probably still be tolerating him and carrying his dead weight if it weren't for her. She's my higher power. I hope you can find yours if/when the time is right.
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Originally Posted by AutumnMama
He said...”I’m trying to remain neutral here, but if I had to decide today—he isn’t offering you anything” that was quite a statement because he’s been soooo neutral!
You know, I have no experience of this (couples counselling) but if I were you I would absolutely be tempted to have a couple of sessions as a couple with this same therapist.
I have a hunch he sees this all quite clearly and he might just get your RAH to show himself. I could be wrong and of course this would only be if you in fact actually care to do that (and pay for it all apparently).
As for gas-lighting or not, well he just sounds reactionary and argumentative to me (and mean and rude etc as well). I wouldn't share anything of a personal nature with him at all, he does not have your best interests at heart.
As for forgetting things said in the heat of the moment, that's pretty normal I think. Two suggestions of tools to use here, first of all just because you are in a discussion/argument doesn't mean you have to respond immediately. Take time to think about your response like you did with walking away then coming back to state how his comments on your mental health make you feel. You can stand there and think about it for 10 minutes if you like, there is no time crunch.
Second, as soon as you leave or he does, make notes! As much as you can remember. That's for you, not him. That's your back-up for yourself so you aren't second guessing and saying oh maybe he did say he can't afford it and I forgot? Maybe I'm misunderstanding and it's just his Mom who is impatient and it was only once? That kind of thing.
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Originally Posted by AutumnMama
Is marriage counseling with someone like this even worth it? Will the therapist see what is going on or do I run the risk of him “wooing”them?
It seems like what he *can* afford is getting you to take all the blame for everything that's ever gone wrong in the world, and continuing to browbeat you in conversations like these until you agree. Seems like that therapist thinks so, too.
I never made any progress in my own recovery while I continued to focus on other people.
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If you did remember alot of past events in detail - he would just blame
you for being destructive in remembering every argument from the
past and holding it against him. Don't go there! But do make notes
after for YOU.
This is a great help for dealing with people who tempt you to JADE.
Medium Chill ? Out of the FOG
you for being destructive in remembering every argument from the
past and holding it against him. Don't go there! But do make notes
after for YOU.
This is a great help for dealing with people who tempt you to JADE.
Medium Chill ? Out of the FOG
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Join Date: Mar 2017
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Originally Posted by AutumnMama
A belated “sorry”for the formatting... I typed that on my phone! Hah
Is marriage counseling with someone like this even worth it? Will the therapist see what is going on or do I run the risk of him “wooing”them?
Is marriage counseling with someone like this even worth it? Will the therapist see what is going on or do I run the risk of him “wooing”them?
I think if you're framing the situation like that ^^^, where your question is whether or not the therapist will see through his facade to the underlying mean alcoholic/drug user, you've already answered it. If he's got a concerned and caring superficial presentation but is a cruel gaslighting addict behind it, do you actually want to stay married to him? What could a marriage counsellor accomplish here?
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Well I sort of had my “recovering??” Question answered this evening. I was dropping off some chili to his parents for dinner and our son wanted to go see his dad (who is staying in a camping trailer on their property). He wasn’t expecting us and had some Kratom pills out on the counter. They were hastily hidden under some plate but I saw them.
I mean they don’t have KRATOM stamped on the side of them but from some prior incidents I’m 95% sure that’s what they are.
So. I guess I was right. That is somewhat comforting? I’m not crazy! Add another example to the “your gut is always right” saying!
I didn’t say anything to him about it. I need to think about what I’m going to do. Not that I really care what he does anymore, but in regards to our son.
I feel like I’m slowly being led down this path to divorce and whatever comes after that, but it’s taking me longer than I would have guessed. The positive is—every step I do take down that path seems obvious, and it’s done without hesitation. But I’m still not 100% there yet. Maybe 80%? That must be frustrating for you guys to read
I mean they don’t have KRATOM stamped on the side of them but from some prior incidents I’m 95% sure that’s what they are.
So. I guess I was right. That is somewhat comforting? I’m not crazy! Add another example to the “your gut is always right” saying!
I didn’t say anything to him about it. I need to think about what I’m going to do. Not that I really care what he does anymore, but in regards to our son.
I feel like I’m slowly being led down this path to divorce and whatever comes after that, but it’s taking me longer than I would have guessed. The positive is—every step I do take down that path seems obvious, and it’s done without hesitation. But I’m still not 100% there yet. Maybe 80%? That must be frustrating for you guys to read
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Hey, I wasn't 100% until I was 100%. You'll get there if/when you're ready. We're not here to judge.
If you're honestly considering divorce, which will involve issues of custody, I would recommend that you start documenting anything and everything reckless that your husband does, like the pills you saw, that would help you in your case to design a custody agreement which protects your son.
If you're honestly considering divorce, which will involve issues of custody, I would recommend that you start documenting anything and everything reckless that your husband does, like the pills you saw, that would help you in your case to design a custody agreement which protects your son.
"O you must wear your rue with difference".
Join Date: Aug 2017
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The marriage is not working out because you're not "happy"? What a jerk. If he is gas-lighting you, he can surely manipulate you through any therapist (if he's skilled enough). I'm only saying that because that is what happened to me. Reading the conversation you had with him reminds me of the conversations I used to have with my ex. Everything always got turned around and made my fault... or if it wasn't my fault, I was "crazy" or "ignorant" or "not remembering things". Anyway, if this is going to lead to divorce, I would strongly suggest that you speak to a lawyer in private first and sort out all the details before telling your husband anything. I can't imagine him being cooperative. Take SaveHer's advice and document everything. You need to start keeping secrets from him now to protect yourself... in case it comes to that.
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Gaslighting is a form of abuse. Abuse is a pattern of behavior intended to extend control over. Whether the control is to get you to doubt yourself to leave off a discussion, or to get you to stop going out, or....
I initially started to see a counselor in order to try to learn how to communicate with AXH, because he had me doubting how our discussions actually had gone, what had been said, what we had both agreed to. The way I felt then feels so incredibly similar to what you describe. Anyway, this counselor had asked if I'd had the same issue at work or with friends. "Um, no, not really. Sometimes I have to clarify a point, but I've never gotten it AS wrong as he says I do with him."
It might help to talk about your discussions with RAH and how you end up feeling after them with your therapist. As an outside party, they're able to see patterns with a bit more clarity.
I initially started to see a counselor in order to try to learn how to communicate with AXH, because he had me doubting how our discussions actually had gone, what had been said, what we had both agreed to. The way I felt then feels so incredibly similar to what you describe. Anyway, this counselor had asked if I'd had the same issue at work or with friends. "Um, no, not really. Sometimes I have to clarify a point, but I've never gotten it AS wrong as he says I do with him."
It might help to talk about your discussions with RAH and how you end up feeling after them with your therapist. As an outside party, they're able to see patterns with a bit more clarity.
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Originally Posted by AutumnMama
The positive is—every step I do take down that path seems obvious, and it’s done without hesitation. But I’m still not 100% there yet. Maybe 80%? That must be frustrating for you guys to read
I really like that positive for you, every step you take you are ready for. That is how you operate, that's how you are comfortable and that's great. It is good you feel like you are standing on firm ground and moving forward.
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