LovelyKaya33333

While I was with my exAB , he often told me that I was "too serious" and wanted to "talk about our relationship too much"... I think he may have been right in a sense however I felt like I couldn't just "be normal" with all of the chaos that the active alcoholism created. For ex. He would tell me that he wanted to get sober... go 3 days without drinking and then tell me he was going to a bachelor party that month in Las Vegas and of course it was with his drinking buddies... and when I would get mad and react he would say that I was over reacting and I was always emotional etc... ( To me going to Las Vegas without your other half isn't something in a relationship I am that okay with....esp if that person is an alcoholic who has said that they want sobriety ) I have been told my whole life that I am emotional... I think that I am but I also think it is something that is beautiful in my character as well. We had tons of moments where I "wasn't being serious" and being super playful or debating about stuff or just being quite... I have only been told I was controlling by one other boyfriend and he was cheating on me almost our entire relationship. I guess I am just going over stuff in my head and wondering if this was just more of his ******** manipulation.... thank you

LexieCat

Yes, it was more of his ******** manipulation. Or, to be more accurate, he can't STAND it when anything threatens his drinking.

Stop looking for nuggets of truth in the babblings of someone not in his right mind. None of us is perfect, but if you're looking for things maybe you should change about yourself, you would do better to talk with a trusted friend or do a Fourth Step with a sponsor.

Wells

I have done this hit the rewind button in my brain sort of thing in the past too, as I tried to wrap my head around it all. Some scattered comments.

3 days of not drinking to them seems like they were doing something so awesome and deserve a reward. Wanting to get sober, not drinking for 3 days, and then going drinking/on a drinking trip is not wanting to get sober. As they say around here it gets progressive. I once thought, she's only drinking 3 or 4 days of the week, not all 7, so she's not an alcoholic. The mentality was that the alcoholic drinks when they wake up and until they go to sleep and does it 7 days a week. But as we have learned that's not the definition at all. That's the final stage of it, but there are many stages that lead up.

I do want to say, as a male who does not have a drinking problem, I love Vegas and have had a standing Vegas trip I do with my male friends every year. I have drank, had a good time, not done anything illegal, or cheated, or to betray any relationship I was in, any of those times. The thought didn't even cross my mind, whether I was drinking or not. With the right guy, you should not have to have a single worry about what he's doing in Vegas or anywhere he goes with his buddies when you are not around. If you feel that in general any boyfriend is not allowed to go anywhere like Las Vegas without you being in tow, that to me is slightly controlling. Now bear in mind, your ex with all his issues, I think you had a FULL right to worry there. Just as I would have expected no different from my ex. If she left town on a vacation without me, I knew it would be a drunk-fest and that I could not trust any of her actions when she drank. That's life in a relationship with an A.

As far as the conversations you have had, I think that's natural, I play mine back too, but any of those "let's sit down and talk about us" and his reaction "this is too serious" is just a gaslighting way to change the subject away from the alcohol. Don't threaten the drinking. My ex hated, HATED HATED when I talked about alcohol or drinking. It was not allowed to be a topic of conversation. And whenever it was it never changed her mind one bit. Or, it did the opposite - She said the mere fact that I brought it up, and any time I brought it up, made her want to drink more and more. I later realized that this was not true. Not bringing it up at all didn't change the drinking. It was just another excuse.

I would not feel bad that you were emotional and wanted to have conversations about your relationship, as that was your attempts to fix the problem. We all try to fix the problem. We think we can sit down and find a way with words to turn things around. Don't feel bad for trying this or for what he said to you about it. Anything he said was just a way to protect the alcohol.

Not sure I was super clear but I hope my male POV helps a bit. In a healthy relationship there is so much less to worry about. I just don't know if I have ever been in one. I've almost gotten used to having to stress and thought it was just the normal way. It's not. I think with the right person and some work a lot of the things you talk about above would not be parts of your personality any more because you would learn you didn't need to go down that path. Think of how wonderful that would be!

LeeJane

Yes, A's don't like it being pointed out that they are A's so they get nasty.

As always, it's all about them.

Kboys

I was accused of "overreacting" or being "too emotional" many times as well...

When mine had his 9 month sober period, and I would ask him about it, like, "how are you doing (with staying sober)?" Or at social gatherings where other people were drinking, I would ask, "is it causing you anxiety watching other people drink?"
Those types of questions would anger him during that period of time. "Well I was fine until you brought it up... It wouldn't be a big deal if you wouldn't make it a big deal..."
I thought I was just being supportive, offering an ear... but he didn't see it that way. But he was never really in recovery at that time... he just didn't drink for nine months.

Same thing when he would have shorter periods of sobriety, and one day I would come home to him drunk, and I would get upset about it. He would say, "I'm just having a drink... I was in a good mood until you got home and got on my back about it!" (So now I have an excuse to continue to drink/go to the bar/cheat/get violent, and blame it on you)

I would have loved to have been able to come home to him just "having a drink" and have it not be a big extreme anxiety producing deal to me... join him and have one too.... but there was way too much water under the bridge for that.

Wells

She never used these words for me but I think the theme is similar. Basically, it is a way to redirect any conversation away from alcohol or the problems. It was not a subject to be discussed - No facing the problem.

I remember reading somewhere that asking questions like that to someone who is white-knuckling (not in real recovery) elicits that exact response and it's so true, I saw it first-hand. I also think in true recovery we're not supposed to ask either. We want to ask as codies and hear "everything's great, all this booze around me isn't triggering me at all!" but I think in a true recovery it's sort of a silently implied thing and not something you need to bring up *unless they do first". Great insight here -- Especially any time you hear that statement of YOU being blamed for causing a trigger or them wanting to drink. One thing I said to my ex a lot in the final months when I was still engaging was "Every time you drink, you are the one who decided to drink and you are 100% accountable for it. I was not the cause of your drinking." She disagreed every time. I "drove her to drink". This is the type of statement you get from someone REALLY NOT in recovery.

Another great example of the quote you give above (maybe not so much all the actions after) but the anger when you make note of them having a drink when they are supposedly "stopping". I did this a TON too before I realized every time it was pointless. In the end I just walked away and closed the door and ignored it. Didn't change anything, but neither did remarking on the having a drink thing. Never once did that cause it to stop. I think they want you to remark because that gives their brain a clear path to have a bunch more drinks. How many times was it going to be "just one drink" but because you said something it turned into a lot more? 0. If you said nothing, the amount of alcohol consumed that day would have been the same.

I think this is the dream of all codies much as it is the dream of all A's to moderate drinking! We want A's to enjoy a beverage like we do and react and have their brains do what ours do, as much as they do!

LexieCat

To be honest, I was in AA and working my recovery from the day after my last drink, and it would have annoyed me to no end if people outside of AA asked me "how's the recovery going" or "does it make you anxious to watch other people drink."

It's MY business, and I wouldn't care to have to give updates/reports to ANYONE. And because most alcoholics are pretty touchy in early sobriety (even when they're doing all the right stuff), I probably would have bitten the asker's head off.

Just sayin'. It doesn't mean someone's not in true recovery when they act that way--especially not at that stage of the game.

LovelyKaya33333

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your responses. The hard part for me was the promises to get sober and then a few weeks later wanting to go the Vegas for the weekend with his drinking buddies... It was just another time I felt lied to or fooled into thinking this time he actually meant it ... I don't think anyone going to Vegas 2 weeks into sobriety has any intention on getting sober. Just my opinion.

MAYA1

When your feelings are inconvenient for others, they usually tell you you are too emotional to make you feel bad for expressing yourself. Those are not people worth your attention and energy..it compares to emotional abuse. Healthy people who care about you do not see your feelings like something inconveniente, but talk to you.

And yes, when my exAB started to dring and abuse pills and drugs, I was too serious and boring...This was to take your mind off their problem. It used to make me sad that someone I love and someone who used to think I was funny and inteligent now thinks I am boring. This made me stay longer as I tried and tried to proof him otherwise. I hate mind games.

take care

AnvilheadII

well, to be honest, you probably were TOO involved in HIS drinking "problem" - micromanaging, having an opinion on what he SHOULD do if he was serious.....etc. and, you were probably "correct" in your assessments....a person with a 2 little weeks of sobriety probably should NOT go to a bachelor party in VEGAS and expect to stay SOBER.

but those were still HIS decisions to make, not yours. it is so hard to keep our fingers and opinions to ourselves, when we see others making obvious poor choices. but that doesn't mean we GET to dictate how others live their lives.

what we DO get to dictate is how much we let the lives of others affect OUR lives....our serenity, our peace.

Wells

I concur that you were correct to be worried about him saying he is recovering but then going to Vegas for a bachelor party. It is pretty much a given that he was not serious at all about a true recovery. So I agree with your feelings and were that same situation in my court, I'd have felt the same way.

Great talk from Lexie above about recovery talk by the way - When my ex did quit (white knuckle) I did all the wrong things...Basically I tried to manage her sobriety for her because of her white knuckling. Ask her about her comfort levels around booze, ask her if she felt different, ask her if she was missing it, etc -- Not all the time but in retrospect even once was too much. Lexie, would you agree that if the person IN recovery wanted to talk about it, it would be okay, but only if they initiated? The big thing I have learned from reading is to completely leave any talk of alcohol/recovery off the table at least on the F&F end.

I think the other thing we have learned in this thread is that our attempts at any sort of serious conversation (about the drinking, the relationship in general, the fact the house wasn't clean, the fact we felt lost, etc) are all going to be turned back onto us as us being emotional, boring, attacking, too serious, etc. Sounds like a theme.

The patterns teach us so much.

LexieCat

Yeah, some people LOVE to talk about their recovery--to anyone willing to listen (and sometimes to people sick of hearing about it). I think the best move is to just kind of follow the other person's lead--if they seem uncomfortable at any point, change the subject. Unless you are someone's sponsor or therapist you have no reason or right to pump them about what they are doing, how they are feeling, etc.

When my first husband got sober, I learned to just say, "How was the meeting?" And the answer was usually, "Fine." Or sometimes he'd tell me a story about something that happened, something funny he heard at the meeting, or something like that. Other than that, I don't recall we talked a whole lot about it--unless I happened to go to a meeting with him or something.

LOL, he tells me there was one occasion when I told him, "Go call your sponsor and tell him not to bring you back till you're FIXED." I don't have an independent recollection of that, but I probably did. We all flip out once in a while.

LovelyKaya33333

I feel that at the time if he wanted to be in a relationship with me I do get to say "Hey you going to Vegas for a Bachelor Party with your drinking buddies when you have told me that you understand staying sober is what needs to happen in order to have me in your life....is a deal breaker for me"... Setting boundaries for myself is not being controlling. At this point I had been through other promises of his sobriety without follow through. I do believe couples can make decisions together and compromise... If he wasn't willing to work on his sobriety than I wasn't willing to stay dating him..that was the line I set before he made the comment about Vegas.... Also I actually spent very little time micromanaging his drinking... He always drank around me and I can't even remember a time where I said anything about his drinking unless it effected our night ...ex. Him getting so drunk he came home puking all over the back yard... Or him getting so drunk that he didn't make it home... It didn't have to do with the drinking as much as the disrespect towards our relationship that the drinking caused... My point I was making in the Vegas conversation was towards the end of our relationship I had set boundaries and we had a conversation and he agreed to those boundaries .... so I was simply saying what was right for ME was to leave the relationship because CLEARLY going to vegas to drink weeks after he made those promises to me meant his sobriety wasn't important and that the boundaries I set weren't important

LovelyKaya33333

I know that recovering alcoholics are going through recovery but at what point does their partner have to stop tippy toeing around subjects. Just in my opinion asking someone how they are doing in their program seems just standard...not harping ...just 2 people asking questions and sharing their life... I mean I could be wrong here but why is asking that question wrong? I have a few friends that have been in and out of recovery and none of them have felt bothered with a simple "how are the steps going?" ...or "how are you feeling with everything?".... I also don't feel bothered when people ask about my steps in alanon... my exAB would ask me how it was going and if I liked it etc... I guess I just don't understand why 2 people friends or even B/G or Husband and Wife shouldn't be sharing things in recovery

LovelyKaya33333

Yes this exactly...thank you

LexieCat

I think the problem is that you're once again trying to apply the "rules" that pertain to healthy people, to someone experiencing a life-changing upheaval. You can't really appreciate, until you've been there, what it feels like to give up the only thing in your life that makes you feel NORMAL.

I think most couples DO talk about recovery stuff after a certain amount of time (which may vary from person to person). I felt pretty solid after a year or so.

I'll throw out an analogy, sort of--one that you might understand only after having given birth. It would be like having someone interrogating you, while you're in the midst of a hugely painful contraction, about how you're feeling, is there anything I can get you, what color should we paint the nursery. The person asking could have all the loving intentions in the world, but at that moment, the questions/concern would NOT be appreciated, and probably provoke a "shut up and leave me alone!"

I'm not suggesting you have to tippytoe around, not saying or doing anything that will "upset" the other person. I'm just explaining that recovery is a very personal, and often deeply painful process, and having a concerned partner figuratively taking your temperature every five minutes, or any time things seem "challenging," is usually not appreciated.

LexieCat

Just a couple more thoughts. When the alcoholic gets questions from a partner about what s/he is doing in his/her program, how s/he feels about certain situations, etc., what the alcoholic FEELS (and it's usually accurate) is that the partner is "checking up" to make sure the alcoholic is doing the "right" things and not about to drink. This is very nerve-wracking, because the recovering alcoholic may be managing to stay sober five minutes at a time, and s/he is still figuring out what IS the "right" way to do things and how to get relief from wanting to drink. That's something that only another sober alcoholic, who has navigated those waters, can help with.

So one more analogy. It's sort of like learning a very difficult new skill and being questioned or given suggestions by someone who has never learned this skill him/herself but is very invested in seeing you succeed at it. It would be distracting and confusing when you're trying to figure out and apply the stuff taught to you by your coach or teacher. You'd need to be concentrating on following the advice given by your coach, and the helpful "encouragement" from the sidelines would not be appreciated.

schnappi99

This is a timely subject for me. As far as I know my wife has been dry for 2.5yrs now, I've been deeply in Alanon for that long. For a year or so she did some of the Women for Sobriety work but is not involved particularly or at least to the extent that activities along those lines are apparent. The Alanon work for me has been fundamentally transforming my attitude towards our marriage- I am much more aware of how demanding I was, especially during the 5+ years of alcohol & perscription drug abuse, so my game now is the alanon party line- what can I bring to the relationship instead of what can I get from it. I don't get a corresponding vibe from her, instead an emotional blank and change of subject when it comes to spiritual questions, emotional & relationship conversations- she's quite detatched from me and our daughter. My recovery path seems to be to learn to be emotionally self-sufficient, be a dad and let my wife be as she needs to be. Sometimes its pretty hard I wonder sometimes if the limited set of conversational topics she is comfortable with will ever expand, and if we'll ever have an emotionally and physically intimate relationship again. I have to remind myself that if she's not feeling it- anxiety, depression, whatever- then I have to leave it be. I'm also inclined to wonder how much of that intimacy we had in the first place.. there was some perhaps a lot but things started changing 10 years ago during which the drinking started and I pushed harder and harder for what I wanted.

From a program standpoint, I can recognize a good bit of dysfunction in both our immediate families- alcohol, likely mental illness, depression- some profound examples in a couple cases. I seem to be the only one pursuing recovery. Its a little lonely sometimes. Anxiety and insecurity are often apparent in her.. none of the ease I see in others who are active in program. So, I mind my side of the street and hope that things will change. Tell you what though, having a home group and diving into that- gaining the acquaintance of dozens of people and learning their stories is a big help- I find it gives me a bigger relationship with the world, makes me not so dependent on her.

Bekindalways

I liked LK's question and Lexie's answer.

I would think questions about recovery to a friend is less loaded as the relationship is less intense and less dependent on the sobriety/recovery.

LK, did your AXBF ask you about your recovery? Hmmm . . . now I'm trying this question on myself . . . I'm not sure how I would feel about being questioned.

Txjeepguy

You're not his partner anymore.