Centered3

After being no contact with my family for many years, I've begun testing the waters.

I know I have to focus on changing my reaction to their behavior. The challenge is that I still am uncertain how to set boundaries with them.

I've read some ACoA and Al-anon material years ago, but felt a lot of the material is just about the illness, and doesn't offer real solutions. If there are solution-driven material, can someone direct me to it?

The program of AA is helpful with how to not be emotionally reactive to their illness, and how to treat them with love, kindness, acceptance, etc but teaches nothing about how to have boundaries when dealing with sick/abusive people. These are the type of people who take advantage of kindness, love, acceptance, etc. if the need arises for them to dominate, control, get their way, and manipulate.

I have made amends (direct and living) and they went very well. I cleaned up my side of the street. They returned my love, acceptance, and kindness with as much love, acceptance and kindness they were able to give. However, I'm concerned about going forward. My family members I still believe are extremely sick. I've finally accepted that they will not change and I need to let go of expectations. I've seen that all of the survival skills I learned from childhood just hurt me, and I need to take care of myself first.

I need to learn how to teach them that they can't abuse me anymore like they used to. I am concerned that they will pick up where we left off. I also fear they will actually get worse if they push harder to try to get away with their abusive manipulative behavior if they see me trying to set boundaries.

Ambuler

I'm going through the same and would appreciate insight on this as well. I'm the daughter of an alcoholic mother.

I'm an alcoholic myself so I probably don't belong on this forum, but our struggles are the same.

dandylion

Centered3......on amazon.com, you can find several publications by Dr. Henry Cloud on this subject......
His work comes hightly recommended in these parts......

dandylion

SparkleKitty

People *do* respond negatively when you enforce boundaries, but there is nothing you can do to control that.

The most important thing here is that you are clear on what behavior you will or will not accept, and that you are clear on what YOU will do if anyone behaves in any way with you that is not acceptable.

You can't worry about what they will or won't do, how they will or won't respond. Or you can, but it will be meaningless. They are going to do and respond however they are going to. The only thing you can control is what YOU will do.

FireSprite

Even the strongest, most well-thought-out boundaries won't force some people to change their behavior. Setting boundaries protects you, but doesn't dictate how others get to act - just YOUR reactions to them.

Some people will get worse or push harder when you set boundaries, you can't control that. Some people may decide you are impossible to deal with & stop engaging with you altogether which is their choice. There's no way to create a boundary that protects you AND allows the other person to continue acting the way they always have - what would be the point in having boundaries at all if you soften or change them to fit the offending person?

Some of my boundary setting has resulted in building better, stronger, respectful relationships. Some have forced me to cut contact with people completely because they repeatedly violated my boundaries & refused to develop healthier behavior.... I can't predict or control what others will do, but I know what hurts me & I can stop allowing that to happen.

I think the most important thing to remember about boundary setting is that they belong to YOU - they can be flexible & evolve with you over the course of your own recovery. As you learn more you can add/tweak/change.

stevieg46

Hi C 3 ( you will be getting fed up with me ).

In my experience 3 things ( 1 ) Rise above , which simply means do not take up the challenge /or pick up the gauntlet if its thrown down , or don't take the bait no matter what . .

( 2 ) Detachment can work in several ways , (a) do not get yourself or allow yourself to get emotionally attached , our emotions if, out of our control open up floodgates and all sorts rush in and people can be expert at playing with our emotions (old saying control your emotions ) its like really learning to wear a suit of armor . (b) Toughening up and maybe putting a time limit on your contact , 15 minutes /30 minutes etc , its knowing when enough's enough .Detachment here means when you leave , you leave ''unattached '' do not take it home with you . Realize its when ''WE ALLOW '' others to press our buttons .

3 Challenging behavior from one or several people is very difficult to handle and it can get out of control . Point here is ''taking control'' , to take charge , to block some remarks and turn round conversations when needed , its really just like having a ''mental defense '' powerless over people ,places and things , so expect and accept is the answer , be prepared for whatever , go expecting the worst and you never know it might turn out to be a bonus .

Normally addicts/alcoholics are usually quite smart we manipulated planned etc to get this/that whatever , we used our brains thinking out how to get what we want , we were good at it . We are what we think , so ''plan '' for anything unexpected . Theoretically is easy to say do this do that , but forward planning is a good idea . Obviously restarting communication with your family and the circumstances surrounding them is difficult ''at the start '' it will get easier that is fact , so perhaps short visits to start , having someone phone you at a prearranged time giving you an excuse to leave could be a plan b . New way of life needs a new way of thinking , they have ''old ideas '' you don't , you could also communicate by phone to start with .

What I am really getting at is '' you control the situation '' be alert , toughen up , detach , rise above etc . you can do all things through GOD that strengthens you '' if ''GOD is for you who can be against you'' again words are easy music is much harder . Just for Today Card, I can do something for a short while today that would appall me if I had to do so the rest of my life (words to that affect ) practice makes perfect the more you do it the better you will get at it . Boundaries with abusive people are very difficult to implement , its what you do

Long winded I know , but I am rooting for you , take care .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006 .

Centered3

Thanks, dandylion, I've seen his books before and now I'll know they are highly recommended for us types. I may even have one.

Centered3

That is such a good point. I know it sounds obvious but honestly I needed to hear it. It's a reminder that how people react to me is none of my business, yes? It's not up to me to make them feel better anymore and cater to their every need and whim.

I like how you spelled this out. It's still confusing for me as to which behaviors to let go as in "stay in your own lane" vs which behaviors I need to make clear that I will not accept. When my sister immediately made fun of me to the family and my husband, I didn't react the way she wanted me to react. I reacted by not reacting.

But I'm not sure now if I should have said, "that way you speak about me is unacceptable" or if I did the right thing letting it go. I know she does it purely from her very insecure ego that makes her put me down as she comes off as arrogant.

Yes no more walking on eggshells for me and complying to their needs so they feel better about themselves.

Centered3

That is a really good point. I hadn't thought of it that way. I spent my life in self-seeking behavior of people-pleasing, complying, talking down about myself/making fun of myself so they would all feel better about themselves. Or at times I acted better than, just to feed my own ego.

I know it's all about my needing to change my reactions to them, and I appreciate your reminding me of that again, but I suddenly feel like the hole in the donut in regards to that subject.

I know I am in fear of them getting worse or pushing harder when setting boundaries. And we all know what fear means.... So that's on me.

I know of one family member who would decide she doesn't want to engage once I'm healthy because she is extremely sick, but that's not an issue right now because we're not in each other's lives. But these other family members, I do feel like they want a healthy version of me in their lives deep down in inside. I just hope the sick part of them doesn't screw this up and make it harder than it has to be.

I want that very much. I'm tired of letting people walk over me, then venting about it to a therapist, friend, my spouse, etc. That behavior I observed as a child/adult but it does not mean I have to continue the cycle. You brought up another interesting thing to consider. If these family members continue to violate my boundaries, then I have a choice to not be in their lives again.

When you wrote "I know what hurts me, and I can stop allowing that to happen"--do you trust yourself enough to know that you're not being "overly sensitive"? I think I've grown from that, but I'm not 100% sure. Then again, I know that no one else's opinion of me matters in the least except God's (I work a spiritual program).

That is excellent advice. I tend to be a bit rigid with things/perfectionist at times so I will keep it in mind that boundaries can be flexible.

Thank you for a very helpful post. You all made me very comfortable posting on this side of the fence.

Centered3

NEVER! :-) You've helped me tremendously as I can tell from older posts you have helped others tremendously, too. You are an asset to SR!! Sometimes I just get overwhelmed and don't reply to older posts right away especially if other stuff is on my mind. It helps me focus better to wait till my mind is clear.

I like that. Rise above. Don't fall down to their level. I did that when one of them started to gossip. I got really uncomfortable and then I calmly stated, "I'm not comfortable with this." They stopped. "Don't take the bait" is something my therapist often says to me. Family members always seem to know what buttons to push. No more. I am safe and protected in the present moment because I have God with me. (Yes, Stevie, before leaving the hotel room, I said out loud, "Ok God come with me. Bring your jacket!" See how much you've helped?) :-)

I think I was able to be attached without even realizing it. Normally, even if I'm quiet and not verbally reacting, I usually tense up and get agitated by certain family members' extremely loud ranting raging angry constant talking at 90mph one-way conversations and facial expressions. The facial expression thing was a huge sensitivity for me but I was amazed at how detached I was. That was God's doing.

Also, usually these sort of things would leave me absolutely drained and upset and venting for hours afterward, but I was able to let it all go and leave it there. Talk about program miracles! But I will continue to remember to "DETACH" I wish I had that word in my head beforehand.

I like that! I've never had the guts to do things like that. I didn't turn round the conversations, I just let them be. I thought that'd be my playing God but now I see that this is still also about my welfare, too, not just there's. Amazingly enough, I didn't get all OCD and think about the zillion ways this could have gone. I just went with it, with my armor. And I reminded myself of the serenity prayer, that I can't change them. I can change me.

So true...and when you have a family system of addicts/alcoholics all trying to control and manipulate....all hell can break lose! lol

What kind of forward planning?

I hope it gets easier. A follow up phone call with one member was awkward. Another follow up phone call was exactly as past behavior but it was okay, I set a light boundary where needed and it was received.

I like your idea of planned times for phone calls. I am in fear about being caught off guard when I am not in my "A game". Maybe I'll say "can you hold on a moment?" and then I will connect with God or quickly say the serenity prayer.

That's a really good point, that they still have their sick, old ideas, but I now have a new attitude and a new way of thinking. One of my favorite AA speakers shared recently that "new" means to him "now with God." Love that!

I feel stronger just reading this! I'm not a child anymore. Like my sponsor once said to me, "You are a child of God, and you will become an adult child of God". She said that during my very long thorough 4th step, but now I understand it.

"If God is for you, who can be against you"--I think I heard Joel Osteen say something like that?? I love that quote because it reminds me who cares how others act or think about me. I've got that God shield. No one can hurt me anymore.

Not long winded! On the contrary, full of useful information!

Thanks, my friend.

FireSprite

I didn't always trust myself the way I do now, but yeah, I'm ok with any moments of oversensitivity I may experience. It's ok for me to have less than perfect days/periods.

I want to clarify about "flexible " boundaries. By that I mean you get to keep adding new details as "more is revealed"..... not that a person should be bending on ENFORCING their boundaries. Basically, if you flub up and realize you didn't have a great boundary on something, learn from the experience, modify your plan and carry on.

Accept that you WILL make mistakes in recovery, to some extent, as you grow. The trick is not continually repeating the same ones. And it's helpful to accept that those committed to staying in their disfunction will react badly as you keep growing. It's very threatening to others when you suddenly change the dance steps on them, midstream.

Fear. ... yeah. I get that. I've learned that I don't have to let go of my fear in order to get beyond it. .... I can carry it with me, aware of it, and it will naturally fade as I settle into whatever the new normal becomes. I'm starting to see EVERYTHING about this process as a phase, nothing is permanent unless I make room for it in my life: sadness, fear, discomfort - none of it has to last, it can have a shelf life.

In the end, I always circle back to the realization that it's not up to me to make others see things from my POV. I don't walk their path in life and don't presume to know what's best for them. .. it's taken this long to just start understanding MYSELF!

stevieg46

Hi C 3 .

Forward planning in your situation is first and foremost knowing what to expect , it means you are not walking into something you didn't expect , so make a plan to deal with the ''usual suspects '' and their ''usual expected behavior '' God is ''with you is part of the plan '' cut visit short if need be and do not make apologies for it , measure your breathing it helps keeping you calm , be in charge at all times , ''do not give them power over you '' , forward planning basically means ''playing out the scenario in your head beforehand '' and if necessary your planned escape route '' . Its not a competition but if ''you think victory '' you get victory , exact opposite for being defeated .

Doing this is a skill , it is like putting on an act for the right reasons , part of our old ideas , ''running the show '' old ideas sometimes can be an advantage hee hee . take care .

Regards Stevie recovered 12 03 2006.

hopeful4

This is super basic, but I think about this all the time, in every aspect of my life.

YOU CANNOT CONTROL ANYONE ELSE'S ACTIONS, BUT YOU CAN CONTROL YOUR OWN REACTION.

That is after lots of years of boundary and codependency work, dumbed way down for myself LOL.

It's so true though. You know what you have to do, you just fear their reactions. Which is valid. However, there is absolutely no point in getting caught up in what may happen. Just handle it, day by day, moment by moment.

Tight hugs. I know it's really hard, but I think you sound to be in a very good state of mind yourself.

Centered3

Trusting myself and allowing myself to have the feelings that I do has been incredibly difficult. I was never allowed to have any feelings growing up, because my parents have the emotional maturity of 5 year olds (I say that factually; not to be mean) and so it was always about their feelings; not ours.

If my mother did "respect" my feelings, she always did it with huge loud sighs and a "giving in but I really don't want to" sort of tone of voice. It's hard to explain.

I was often teased relentlessly by family members (mom + siblings) for being "over sensitive". I was also taught that my feelings stressed out my parents.

As I've emotionally, spiritually, and mentally grown in my AA program, my sensitivity has debated but I had a slippery moment or two when back with my family but was able to catch it and pause right after.

That was a helpful clarification, thank you. I still tend to have black and white alcoholic thinking and I need to remember if I enforce too lenient a boundary, I can make it more firm next time or that this isn't about "okay they're behaving now, I'll let that boundary slide." They're going to test that one big time, I know it. They'll think this new way of my behaving is temporary or that they can break it down (Nope! I've got God now!)

I no longer beat myself up over mistakes so I will learn from this very gray, dynamic experience that will ebb and flow and modify as needed. (My therapist would be clapping and cheering for me if he read this). Thank you!

I needed to hear this again. I'm the type where I make one little mistake, and that's it, I failed, and give up. I never was allowed to make mistakes growing up. Perfectionism at all costs basically and if I wasn't perfect, I was worthless and then I'd be so stuck in self-pity, self-hate, self-anger that I'd never be able to learn from my lessons, and I'd keep making the same mistakes repeatedly. Thank God I have learned how life and mistake making and learning really work.

I guess this is where the rubber hits the road--can they keep their level of dysfunction down enough as I have grown stronger, or will they get sicker. That's why I'm really just taking baby steps with them here. It's testing my confidence, that's for sure. Sorry for all the God talk but He's my shield and that's what gives me strength. I'm also reminded of "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain." They'll act all powerful and strong but behind their dysfunction and abuse and anger is pure weakness and their own pain.

My OCD mind used to feed into my fears. I have a way I was taught in AA how to remind myself that fears come from a very early age, and they are not real. I also have a way of giving them to God and trusting Him vs being in fear. But I like your "zen" way, too. To just sort of let the fear "be" and eventually it flows out. I also happened to say one of fears out loud, and when I did that, it went away because I realized how silly it was. If I stop feeding my fears, they'll stop growing and will eventually fade away.

I really needed to read this. I've done this in too many other areas of my life but I've learned that I'm not God, it's not my job to "help" the world. Plus what were my motives? They were to feel better about myself by helping others by sharing my POV. Not good. Everyone has their own journey and I have to let everyone be.

One of my sponsors used to call that shoving baby food down a baby's mouth or something like that. When it comes down to it, I can only save myself.

Thanks for your support.