Red flags for lapse/ relapse
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Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Australia
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Red flags for lapse/ relapse
Any tips for handling yourself if your A is showing signs of lapse/ relapse?
AH did 2x detox and 1x rehab last year and has been sober 4+ months. He's been doing really well and has been very engaged in his treatment.
About 2 weeks ago I noticed he was becoming more fatigued. He raised it wi his psyche and he thought it within the realms of normal for recovery, said fatigue at this stage is normal and also noted that his anti-psychotic causes drowsiness.
Over the last week he's been super sluggish, totally unmotivated. He's still going to OP, therapy with me, and his AS equivelent of group. He's cooking and doing basic kid stuff. But the rest of the time he sits on the couch starring into space or watching TV. He's been less engaged with me and the kids, says that bc he's doing nothing, he has nothing to say.
He was very, very social, and like many A's all his friends and family are big drinkers. He's lonley, and bored, but has no friends who are no drinkers. He'll catch up occasionally but is saying he wish he could have a couple of beers with them. He says life is boring, and beige. He made 3 good friends in rehab, but all have relapsed, or lapsed. His whole 'group' have a couple of people not lapsed, but he doesn't have a connection with them. He's not in AA and his psych supports that (he has BPD and AA doesn't work so well apparently for bpd'ers). He's in a personality disorder/ addiction group instead.
Today he said to me he really wants to be able to catch up with people over a beer or two. He misses all his friends and family. He wants to find work, but every introduction meeting is at a bloody bar... (Australlia, his line of work = horribly common) and he's finding it difficult t feel confident without a beer) least he's honest I suppose. He doesn't have the urge to get drunk, but does really want a drink and is having strong psychological cravings. For the first time in 4 months he said "but I cant as otherwise you'll kick me out". There it is. BLAME.
I'm ok I suppose....keeping out of it, keeping myself happy and occupied, trying to watch myself and my reactions (I.e I would have stuck to him prior...now I'm making sure I don't change my schedule one bit).
But any tips would help. I have that hard ball sinking feeling in my gut. I KNOW I can't do anything to change what is going to happen (or not happen), and I am going to be horribly hurt and disappointed if he does lapse/ relapse....I'll be ok...but gosh it's been nice having him 'back' and I am going to miss that. If it happens. Don't future trip hey? Day by day....
ETA sponsor and addiction psych have been called - they've talked him through it but ended it at "it's your choice" which obviously it is....
AH did 2x detox and 1x rehab last year and has been sober 4+ months. He's been doing really well and has been very engaged in his treatment.
About 2 weeks ago I noticed he was becoming more fatigued. He raised it wi his psyche and he thought it within the realms of normal for recovery, said fatigue at this stage is normal and also noted that his anti-psychotic causes drowsiness.
Over the last week he's been super sluggish, totally unmotivated. He's still going to OP, therapy with me, and his AS equivelent of group. He's cooking and doing basic kid stuff. But the rest of the time he sits on the couch starring into space or watching TV. He's been less engaged with me and the kids, says that bc he's doing nothing, he has nothing to say.
He was very, very social, and like many A's all his friends and family are big drinkers. He's lonley, and bored, but has no friends who are no drinkers. He'll catch up occasionally but is saying he wish he could have a couple of beers with them. He says life is boring, and beige. He made 3 good friends in rehab, but all have relapsed, or lapsed. His whole 'group' have a couple of people not lapsed, but he doesn't have a connection with them. He's not in AA and his psych supports that (he has BPD and AA doesn't work so well apparently for bpd'ers). He's in a personality disorder/ addiction group instead.
Today he said to me he really wants to be able to catch up with people over a beer or two. He misses all his friends and family. He wants to find work, but every introduction meeting is at a bloody bar... (Australlia, his line of work = horribly common) and he's finding it difficult t feel confident without a beer) least he's honest I suppose. He doesn't have the urge to get drunk, but does really want a drink and is having strong psychological cravings. For the first time in 4 months he said "but I cant as otherwise you'll kick me out". There it is. BLAME.
I'm ok I suppose....keeping out of it, keeping myself happy and occupied, trying to watch myself and my reactions (I.e I would have stuck to him prior...now I'm making sure I don't change my schedule one bit).
But any tips would help. I have that hard ball sinking feeling in my gut. I KNOW I can't do anything to change what is going to happen (or not happen), and I am going to be horribly hurt and disappointed if he does lapse/ relapse....I'll be ok...but gosh it's been nice having him 'back' and I am going to miss that. If it happens. Don't future trip hey? Day by day....
ETA sponsor and addiction psych have been called - they've talked him through it but ended it at "it's your choice" which obviously it is....
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Pa
Posts: 4,872
jarp,
so sorry that you are going through this. I think your insights right now are right on the mark. There isn't a thing you can do about whether he will drink or not, or whether he will paint you "black" and go out and drink. Can try to use "validation", but you still need to keep your boundaries.
I wish I could give you advice as to what worked for me, but I didn't realize that my ex most likely had BPD till after we were divorced.
I look back now and there were a lot of things that I could have done differently, but then I look at those things and I really don't know if any of that would have helped anyway.
I am happy that you are taking care of yourself better and not getting involved with his stuff, hopefully stopped walking on eggshells.
Just really wanted to say that I do understand what you are going thru with the dual diagnosis, and I am here to support you.
(((((((((((hugs))))))))))
amy
so sorry that you are going through this. I think your insights right now are right on the mark. There isn't a thing you can do about whether he will drink or not, or whether he will paint you "black" and go out and drink. Can try to use "validation", but you still need to keep your boundaries.
I wish I could give you advice as to what worked for me, but I didn't realize that my ex most likely had BPD till after we were divorced.
I look back now and there were a lot of things that I could have done differently, but then I look at those things and I really don't know if any of that would have helped anyway.
I am happy that you are taking care of yourself better and not getting involved with his stuff, hopefully stopped walking on eggshells.
Just really wanted to say that I do understand what you are going thru with the dual diagnosis, and I am here to support you.
(((((((((((hugs))))))))))
amy
Sober since 10th April 2012
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,047
hi jarp, you must be feeling pretty helpless now. I suppose you've given him some feedback about how you think he might be heading for a relapse? Feedback could be different to buying into it.
The work thing seems a bit strange to me. I would think it would be well within his capabilities to set up an appointment or meeting in the morning, whatever his line of work. Or to prepare himself carefully to drink a coke in a bar. It's not like a one-off in a bar should cause a relapse at this stage. I agree that hanging out in bars is dangerous, but you can go now and then if you are prepared.
No wonder he's feeling isolated and depressed if he's not out working. It's just not good for mental health.
I hope it works out because you must be on edge at the moment.
The work thing seems a bit strange to me. I would think it would be well within his capabilities to set up an appointment or meeting in the morning, whatever his line of work. Or to prepare himself carefully to drink a coke in a bar. It's not like a one-off in a bar should cause a relapse at this stage. I agree that hanging out in bars is dangerous, but you can go now and then if you are prepared.
No wonder he's feeling isolated and depressed if he's not out working. It's just not good for mental health.
I hope it works out because you must be on edge at the moment.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
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Originally Posted by jarp 
Any tips for handling yourself if your A is showing signs of lapse/ relapse?
For the him part, the cravings are natural and to be expected. Are both or either of you going to a licensed addictions counselor on a regular basis?
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 11,431
It takes time to rebuild a life when it has been centered around socializing and drinking.
What interests does he have / can he develop outside of caring for the family that don't involve bars and hanging out in them?
One thing you could do is sit down and do some planning about some things he could do alone and together with you that are healthy outlets without alcohol--what about hiking as a family, ballroom dancing as a couple, or taking extension courses through the Uni in a topic of interest?
I started playing guitar again after thirty years away, plus hiking, crossfit and yoga.
My feeling, speaking as a former drinker here, that unless he is willing to really stick it for at least a year and truly get other things going in his life, any relapse is more likely to become a lapse or quick slide back into hell.
Yes, my life too is more "beige" than when I could party and "feel" with alcohol. But the price I was paying and my family was paying was too high
so I have committed to sobriety to protect myself and them from consequences I don't want any of us to have.
I was a very high bottom drunk compared to what Mr. Jarp has put you through so I guess I personally, as another alcoholic,
I really am very concerned to hear him already talking about "a few beers" given what that has led to in your recent family life.
Same as you passed my congrats to him this holiday, please tell him from me that he is on the brink of throwing it all away again if he starts thinking he can drink in moderation.
He can't. That's his addicted voice talking to him, pure and simple.
Yes, sobriety is hard at first, but he can have a meaningful and productive life if he keeps moving forward and building, not longing for what he can't do anymore.
One recent thing relevant to this I'd like to share:
I haven't been to a bar in years now, but I did go to a party a few months ago with my former drinking crowd and I could not believe how boring and pathetic the drunk conversation and behavior was to me now--
I really have changed, but it took more than a few months to do it.
He can have his family, eventually a career again, and a great life or he can drink. From where I sit, I really doubt he will be able have all of these things.
What interests does he have / can he develop outside of caring for the family that don't involve bars and hanging out in them?
One thing you could do is sit down and do some planning about some things he could do alone and together with you that are healthy outlets without alcohol--what about hiking as a family, ballroom dancing as a couple, or taking extension courses through the Uni in a topic of interest?
I started playing guitar again after thirty years away, plus hiking, crossfit and yoga.
My feeling, speaking as a former drinker here, that unless he is willing to really stick it for at least a year and truly get other things going in his life, any relapse is more likely to become a lapse or quick slide back into hell.
Yes, my life too is more "beige" than when I could party and "feel" with alcohol. But the price I was paying and my family was paying was too high
so I have committed to sobriety to protect myself and them from consequences I don't want any of us to have.
I was a very high bottom drunk compared to what Mr. Jarp has put you through so I guess I personally, as another alcoholic,
I really am very concerned to hear him already talking about "a few beers" given what that has led to in your recent family life.
Same as you passed my congrats to him this holiday, please tell him from me that he is on the brink of throwing it all away again if he starts thinking he can drink in moderation.
He can't. That's his addicted voice talking to him, pure and simple.
Yes, sobriety is hard at first, but he can have a meaningful and productive life if he keeps moving forward and building, not longing for what he can't do anymore.
One recent thing relevant to this I'd like to share:
I haven't been to a bar in years now, but I did go to a party a few months ago with my former drinking crowd and I could not believe how boring and pathetic the drunk conversation and behavior was to me now--
I really have changed, but it took more than a few months to do it.
He can have his family, eventually a career again, and a great life or he can drink. From where I sit, I really doubt he will be able have all of these things.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,281
Jarp, how are you doing today?
These things have been on my mind, also. My husband did 2 x 28 days on in-patient rehab last year. What it showed mostly for me is that it was a starting point and there's much more to learn. With healing and with relapse, more will be revealed.
What I can do is work actively on my own physical, mental and spiritual health, and also find ways to connect with my husband that don't revolve around alcohol or talking about alcoholism recovery. Hawkeye has great suggestions.
I keep coming back to the saying, "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words." When I am living the gospel (whether that of faith and/or recovery), my actions are speaking at all times. It's up to me to choose what they're saying. If necessary, then words can be added.
These things have been on my mind, also. My husband did 2 x 28 days on in-patient rehab last year. What it showed mostly for me is that it was a starting point and there's much more to learn. With healing and with relapse, more will be revealed.
What I can do is work actively on my own physical, mental and spiritual health, and also find ways to connect with my husband that don't revolve around alcohol or talking about alcoholism recovery. Hawkeye has great suggestions.
I keep coming back to the saying, "Preach the gospel at all times. If necessary, use words." When I am living the gospel (whether that of faith and/or recovery), my actions are speaking at all times. It's up to me to choose what they're saying. If necessary, then words can be added.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
what are your boundaries around him drinking again? what is your plan? just as with any other "emergency" it helps US to have a plan. in that way we don't have to freak out (so much) about what MAY happen, but we do know we have thought out the steps WE will take if something does go wrong.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 494
saying he wish he could have a couple of beers with them
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Australia
Posts: 537
Thanks everyone for your support and insights.
Thanks Amy for your continued support re the dual diagnosis. It's so tricky.
Thanks too Hawkeye for your insights and suggestions. We've had several conversations about his interests and he has had the same conversations with his psych and in group...trouble is he can't think of anything...or he'll think of one thing and then not follow through. But this isn't mine to worry about I guess...its up to him to take action.
I think it's especially hard bc he had a lot occupying him and a lot of short term goals...I.e. Get dads funeral over with, get Xmas done, get through NY...and he's done great with all of that, but now it's time to get back to every day life, and it's empty.
The beers comment worries me too...but I get that cravings are going to happen as well. I don't want to overreact and have him shut down and NOT tell me these things (our alcohol counsellor says its 'normal' to wish you could sit down with a beer...doesn't mean he has to take the next step and DO it. That bit is up to him.
Funny thing hawkeye is that he's been to lots of functions whee people are heavily drinking and he DOES say how boring and pointless he sees it as being. But I think his social anxiety still troubles him and he wants a beer to quell that - but knows this is a slippery slope. I can see the fight in him.
Reminding him of what he's put the family through doesn't work. He alternated between feeling immense shame (then wants to drink), and a total lack of empathy (BPD).
I think it's more the withdrawal that's worrying me. And I will admit I am fighting the urge to 'nag' and try to get in his head to know where his thoughts are going. Our counsellor is on a 2 week holiday, so we can't discuss with anyone.
Anyway I'll just keep breathing!!!
Thanks again!
Thanks Amy for your continued support re the dual diagnosis. It's so tricky.
Thanks too Hawkeye for your insights and suggestions. We've had several conversations about his interests and he has had the same conversations with his psych and in group...trouble is he can't think of anything...or he'll think of one thing and then not follow through. But this isn't mine to worry about I guess...its up to him to take action.
I think it's especially hard bc he had a lot occupying him and a lot of short term goals...I.e. Get dads funeral over with, get Xmas done, get through NY...and he's done great with all of that, but now it's time to get back to every day life, and it's empty.
The beers comment worries me too...but I get that cravings are going to happen as well. I don't want to overreact and have him shut down and NOT tell me these things (our alcohol counsellor says its 'normal' to wish you could sit down with a beer...doesn't mean he has to take the next step and DO it. That bit is up to him.
Funny thing hawkeye is that he's been to lots of functions whee people are heavily drinking and he DOES say how boring and pointless he sees it as being. But I think his social anxiety still troubles him and he wants a beer to quell that - but knows this is a slippery slope. I can see the fight in him.
Reminding him of what he's put the family through doesn't work. He alternated between feeling immense shame (then wants to drink), and a total lack of empathy (BPD).
I think it's more the withdrawal that's worrying me. And I will admit I am fighting the urge to 'nag' and try to get in his head to know where his thoughts are going. Our counsellor is on a 2 week holiday, so we can't discuss with anyone.
Anyway I'll just keep breathing!!!
Thanks again!
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,281
It sounds like you're doing very well. You have awareness, now what can you do for you?
May be time to reach out in a different direction, either for him, you or both? I've found the bigger the support net, the stronger my recovery is. YMMV
May be time to reach out in a different direction, either for him, you or both? I've found the bigger the support net, the stronger my recovery is. YMMV
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 273
You’re doing great and have been given a ton of wise advice. Hawkeye’s perceptions as a fellow former drinker completely resonate with me in particular. I would agree with others that the combination of BPD and alcoholism has its own set of challenges. I don’t have any firsthand experience with meds used to treat BPD but I do understand through talking with folks, classes, reading that many folks with BPD really miss the “high” of manic phases which is frequently leveled out with meds.
That said I know that this post is really about you and not your husband so my apologies in advance. You friends and family really are in a tough spot because at the end of the day a potential relapse is totally out of your control. Coming from the “other side of the fence” I’ve read a lot of books in this past year written by other alcoholics who managed to find longterm sobriety. Some had relapses along the way, others not. A personal favorite of mine is Augusten Burroughs (Running with Scissors is probably his best known memoir). I recently read a book of his called “This is How” which didn’t get great reviews but hit the mark on a number of things including sobriety for me. He said something to the effect that at the end of the day, no matter how you go about it, the only way to find long term sobriety is to find something in life that matters to you more than drinking. What that thing is or method you choose is very individual but at the core of it all is that, something else matters more.
I would think that your husband is very likely struggling with that very thing. Finding new things to fill his life and at this point he hasn’t outside of losing his family. Coming from the “A” side this is a huge internal struggle and one you unfortunately can only do so much to help with.
I would say keep doing what you’re doing. Keep your boundary firmly in place with your plan of action prepared in the event you need to enforce it. Focus on yourself and your life so no matter what happens you are moving forward no matter what happens. I do tend to agree that repeatedly reminding him of all the destruction he has caused that while certainly tempting isn’t likely terribly helpful for him. I would also say that coming from the “A” side of the fence I would much rather hear “is there anything I can do to help?” rather than hearing you should do xyz and a receiving a lot of unsolicited advice.
Peace and good luck in your journey ahead wherever it may lead you.
-Cookies
That said I know that this post is really about you and not your husband so my apologies in advance. You friends and family really are in a tough spot because at the end of the day a potential relapse is totally out of your control. Coming from the “other side of the fence” I’ve read a lot of books in this past year written by other alcoholics who managed to find longterm sobriety. Some had relapses along the way, others not. A personal favorite of mine is Augusten Burroughs (Running with Scissors is probably his best known memoir). I recently read a book of his called “This is How” which didn’t get great reviews but hit the mark on a number of things including sobriety for me. He said something to the effect that at the end of the day, no matter how you go about it, the only way to find long term sobriety is to find something in life that matters to you more than drinking. What that thing is or method you choose is very individual but at the core of it all is that, something else matters more.
I would think that your husband is very likely struggling with that very thing. Finding new things to fill his life and at this point he hasn’t outside of losing his family. Coming from the “A” side this is a huge internal struggle and one you unfortunately can only do so much to help with.
I would say keep doing what you’re doing. Keep your boundary firmly in place with your plan of action prepared in the event you need to enforce it. Focus on yourself and your life so no matter what happens you are moving forward no matter what happens. I do tend to agree that repeatedly reminding him of all the destruction he has caused that while certainly tempting isn’t likely terribly helpful for him. I would also say that coming from the “A” side of the fence I would much rather hear “is there anything I can do to help?” rather than hearing you should do xyz and a receiving a lot of unsolicited advice.
Peace and good luck in your journey ahead wherever it may lead you.
-Cookies
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 1,737
Originally Posted by jarp
He doesn't have the urge to get drunk, but does really want a drink and is having strong psychological cravings. For the first time in 4 months he said "but I cant as otherwise you'll kick me out". There it is. BLAME.
---
ETA sponsor and addiction psych have been called - they've talked him through it but ended it at "it's your choice" which obviously it is....
---
ETA sponsor and addiction psych have been called - they've talked him through it but ended it at "it's your choice" which obviously it is....
I don't have any suggestions for you, but being in recovery the above part of your post landed differently to me than it sounds like it did to you. "but I can't as otherwise you'll kick me out" - isn't necessarily blame, it's a statement of fact. If he has done the work that it sounds like he has, it sounds like he understands his situation and why it is this way, but feels "stuck".
It sounds to me like he isn't totally vested in his recovery yet. What he has done is quit drinking as a means of eliminating consequences. In early sobriety, sometimes that's all we can do - stop causing consequences. And that is a huge improvement, but not exactly the stuff that makes for a full and happy life. At some point, sobriety needs to be pursued for its own sake, it is a choice that we make every day for what it gives us, not what it shields us from. It has to be our free choice (as the sponsor and psych pointed out).
I don't know that it's possible to make someone else "get" this - I know several people who have been working at recovery for extended periods, but just can't seem to stay sober. I wish there was a way to get these friends to really look at why sobriety matters to them... and I guess it's the same as asking why life itself matters. It has to be more than simply existing and avoiding pain. And that's an examination and soul searching that nobody can do for someone else.
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