RAH not making amends - wrong to expect?
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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RAH not making amends - wrong to expect?
OK, I am truly taking life one day at a time, but am I wrong to hope for some damn communication?
RAH has been sober for 13 months. During that time, older son has gone off to college and younger (who is very sensitive) has started high school. RAH has huge work ethic and works long hours but does not like his current job. My job is good. So that's the daily snapshot. RAH suspended AA meeting attendance about 6 months ago, no problem. If he doesn't want to do the whole 12-step thing, that's his choice. But am I wrong to desire some communication from him at least to our children about the elephant in the room? I've 99% given up on any to me -- he doesn't talk. I contacted his LCDC for referral to a marriage counselor and will propose this once RAH's busy work season is over after the holidays (no time now). But I am feeling disrespected and cheated and isolated, not just for the AA stuff but after 21 years of minimal to obscure verbal communication from this man. He is chatty and direct and engaged with everyone else in his life aside from his wife and kids. So often I find myself thinking, if it wasn't for the kids I would be out of here.
RAH has been sober for 13 months. During that time, older son has gone off to college and younger (who is very sensitive) has started high school. RAH has huge work ethic and works long hours but does not like his current job. My job is good. So that's the daily snapshot. RAH suspended AA meeting attendance about 6 months ago, no problem. If he doesn't want to do the whole 12-step thing, that's his choice. But am I wrong to desire some communication from him at least to our children about the elephant in the room? I've 99% given up on any to me -- he doesn't talk. I contacted his LCDC for referral to a marriage counselor and will propose this once RAH's busy work season is over after the holidays (no time now). But I am feeling disrespected and cheated and isolated, not just for the AA stuff but after 21 years of minimal to obscure verbal communication from this man. He is chatty and direct and engaged with everyone else in his life aside from his wife and kids. So often I find myself thinking, if it wasn't for the kids I would be out of here.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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Cathair,
I adore your post. Primarily bc this is my life right now. My RAH is 17 mo out.
I think you might be compressing two or three issues in your post.
1. Your spouse is not open in addressing all of the downward stream toxins his addiction caused with your immediate family unit (you-kids).
2. Your marriage has a long history of him not communicating with you - 21 years.
3. Oddly he is open outside of the family unit which makes the lack of communication at home all the more smacking of something sinister, not right, or just plain weird.
I concur that 13 mo out, he can commit to working on YOUR marriage. From the tone I get in your thread post though, are you done either way? Do you want to reconcile with this Quiet Man?
I adore your post. Primarily bc this is my life right now. My RAH is 17 mo out.
I think you might be compressing two or three issues in your post.
1. Your spouse is not open in addressing all of the downward stream toxins his addiction caused with your immediate family unit (you-kids).
2. Your marriage has a long history of him not communicating with you - 21 years.
3. Oddly he is open outside of the family unit which makes the lack of communication at home all the more smacking of something sinister, not right, or just plain weird.
I concur that 13 mo out, he can commit to working on YOUR marriage. From the tone I get in your thread post though, are you done either way? Do you want to reconcile with this Quiet Man?
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: UK
Posts: 278
I've found the Alanon slogan 'Expectations are premeditated resentments' very helpful. If I treat expectations in the same way as I would resentments - i.e. flush them down the toilet immediately - life becomes more manageable.
Or, to put it another way, all you can reasonably expect of another person is that they will be themselves. For 21 years he has given you 'minimal to obscure verbal communication'; unless something cataclysmic happens he could well continue this for another 21 years, and that's something you can realistically expect.
The choice is then yours as to how you handle this. You can't change him or his behaviour - but you can ask yourself if you want to continue living like this when you know what you're likely to get, or whether you'd be better off starting anew, or staying within the relationship but effectively living a separate life, or any of the other options which are open to you.
While you remain focused on him and his behaviour, you are not focused on your own - which is where the potential for change really lies.
The choice is yours, and we all take things on board when we're ready to. You don't say whether or not you're in Alanon, but I've found it helpful beyond helpful when it comes to not being enmeshed in someone else's shortcomings/imagined shortcomings.
Good luck!
Or, to put it another way, all you can reasonably expect of another person is that they will be themselves. For 21 years he has given you 'minimal to obscure verbal communication'; unless something cataclysmic happens he could well continue this for another 21 years, and that's something you can realistically expect.
The choice is then yours as to how you handle this. You can't change him or his behaviour - but you can ask yourself if you want to continue living like this when you know what you're likely to get, or whether you'd be better off starting anew, or staying within the relationship but effectively living a separate life, or any of the other options which are open to you.
While you remain focused on him and his behaviour, you are not focused on your own - which is where the potential for change really lies.
The choice is yours, and we all take things on board when we're ready to. You don't say whether or not you're in Alanon, but I've found it helpful beyond helpful when it comes to not being enmeshed in someone else's shortcomings/imagined shortcomings.
Good luck!
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Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 667
CatHair. TY for coming. It is a relief to see someone that feels the same way I do in some ways. I am nowhere near as long into a relationship as you. But I have asked similar questions about how we get our partner back into an relationship that we both were in at one point. I have asked the same basic questions. What I get back is, don't have expectations, don't expect equal morals. Or. Stop being so controlling of what you want, when you want it.
Not being pissey about it, just learning that we are apparently aren't allowed to expect much and should decide if this will be enough for us. I have sort of looked at this way. Your partner has lost his arms and will be incapable of providing you with anything you need for arms. So either deal with it or pack it up and find someone with arms again. They won't grow back.
Not being pissey about it, just learning that we are apparently aren't allowed to expect much and should decide if this will be enough for us. I have sort of looked at this way. Your partner has lost his arms and will be incapable of providing you with anything you need for arms. So either deal with it or pack it up and find someone with arms again. They won't grow back.
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 6,262
Making amends is Step 9 and if he's not in the program I'm not surprised he hasn't done a self-inventory and taken responsibility for his words and actions. That said, I think expectations probably screw up more relationships than practically anything else. But there is a problem ... the marriage is in trouble and he won't do his part to work on it. Just because someone stops drinking doesn't mean they turn into Prince Charming (they frequently get angrier the first few months and act out in hurtful ways). In AA's Big Book ("Alcoholics Anonymous") Bill Wilson says that drinking is but a symptom of a much larger problem. We alcoholics must change or we'll drink again, and the 12 Steps plus cognitive therapy are good ways to change the selfishness, self-centered fear, grandiosity, low self esteem.
At some point you have to decide what you want for your own life and accept the things you can't change (other people). Alanon saved my sanity and I recommend it as wonderful support.
At some point you have to decide what you want for your own life and accept the things you can't change (other people). Alanon saved my sanity and I recommend it as wonderful support.
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Originally Posted by CatHair 
. . . . if it wasn't for the kids . . . .
Ok, could tell you all about "dry drunk" (but look it up yourself, you will learn more).
Or about how new addictions (like long work hours) can take over.
But let's skip ALL that.
Only one person *we* get to work on. US / ME. That is IT.
Does not matter how we do the math. Addition (of a Counselor), Subtraction (of the A), Multiplication (with the kids), Division (of the household, etc.) . . . .
Math ALWAYS comes out the same.
The Answer is . . . . 1. Ourselves.
That is ALL we get to work on.
That is what Alanon, Celebrate Recovery, on and on are ALL about.
US Fixing US.
Sounds Simple
(it is not, and many turn back, drift off the path, and on and on -- you can see that in most of self-miserable posts on here, btw.)
Sounds simple. But changing that 1 thing (you) changes everything.
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
Expectations breed resentment. Especially when you're seeking with an A. And I'll echo NYC here: he's not working a step program. Amends are part of the 12 steps. So yes, you're off track in expecting them from an A who isn't working the steps. And to echo Hammer: dry drunk... yeah. Just look that one up yourself. You'll learn a lot here. Just stick around and keep asking questions.
Sober since 10th April 2012
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 6,047
I'm not an AA person, but would amends equate to him breaking the habit of a lifetime and talking to you? That might be an unreal expectation.
You might say he's just that type of guy, except that he talks freely to other people. Do you see yourself with him in 5 years time if he doesn't change?
You could try writing him a carefully crafted letter about how this is affecting you and the kids, give him a day or two to digest, then schedule a time to have a talk. You will need to discipline yourself to let him talk, even if it takes a few silences to do it. My experience with these types of men is that when they get emotional they clam up, and need time and silence to form the words. So you have to shut up, or at the most, reflect his feelings.
An additional path is marriage counselling where the therapist is trained to help the couple express their feelings.
You might say he's just that type of guy, except that he talks freely to other people. Do you see yourself with him in 5 years time if he doesn't change?
You could try writing him a carefully crafted letter about how this is affecting you and the kids, give him a day or two to digest, then schedule a time to have a talk. You will need to discipline yourself to let him talk, even if it takes a few silences to do it. My experience with these types of men is that when they get emotional they clam up, and need time and silence to form the words. So you have to shut up, or at the most, reflect his feelings.
An additional path is marriage counselling where the therapist is trained to help the couple express their feelings.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 273
You could try writing him a carefully crafted letter about how this is affecting you and the kids, give him a day or two to digest, then schedule a time to have a talk. You will need to discipline yourself to let him talk, even if it takes a few silences to do it. My experience with these types of men is that when they get emotional they clam up, and need time and silence to form the words. So you have to shut up, or at the most, reflect his feelings. Great advice. Letters are sometimes easier since it gives us time to put our words down carefully and time to write, re-read, edit, and go forth.
I admit I'm hesitant to go forth with the rest of this post since I'm coming from "the other side." That said for a mix on prospective here are my thoughts. Wanting amends is reasonable. Search for "amends" on this forum and you'll find tons and tons of posts which will reaffirm your desires which, if nothing else certainly will show you that you are not alone. During my almost ten months of sobriety I have spent many hours reading this forum trying to educate myself on "the other side." What I have seen as a pattern is people that say they want their better half to get sober, some do, and then loved ones are still deeply unhappy. The common thread seems to be if they were really honest they really want a different person. Some alcoholics will go on deep soul searching trips and become new people but many will not. In full disclosure in my situation I've spent much of my sober emotional capitol on digging through the issues that led to a lot of self medication to begin with, the outsider may not see that, and doubtless that it likely frustrating for those around me. However in my case getting to my roots has been necessary to avoid the temptation once again to self medicate. So far so good (knocking on wood).
I digress, as many have already pointed out to you, sounds like you are now married to a dry drunk and you don't want that. Your wants and desires are not unreasonable but you may NEVER GET THAT with your husband drunk or sober. For a time I kept up with various peoples stories here but I admit as of late I have not so I don't know your whole history. I will say that early on in my sobriety, and even very recently I have confided frustrations with my better half's behavior, yelled, screamed, and basically had tantrums with friends and had people say "all well and good have you told HIM xyz?" The answer of course was no, I had not. I candidly admit its a heckuva a lot easier to tell everyone else but him my gripes because the reality is if we do, and they don't respond the way we want then we have to accept the status quo. The problem is that this breeds an unhealthy self perpetuating pattern. I would say that I have been guilty of the same pattern your husband has been in. I have been perceived, rightfully so, of being chatty and open with everyone BUT HIM. This is something that I need to work on, as he's embraced Al-Anon and worked the steps he is become easier to talk to, feel like I can share without being attacked and judged. Changing longterm ingrained patterns is a long process particularly in long relationships with deeply embedded patterns to break on both sides.
I digress again. The question is have you made your wants and desires clear to him in a non-confrontational manner? Does your husband KNOW why you feel like making amends is important to your children? If he does not then you need to be crystal clear. If the status quo with communication in your marriage is not acceptable then get counseling and figure out if it is possible. If not then as many others have already pointed out rather than miserable and angry for the rest of your life you may need to look at some hard choices of whether this is a relationship you want to continue. The status quo based on what I've read is misery on your part. I hope you are able to get a good counselor who will help you through this next phase of recovery wherever it may lead.
Just my 28.57 cents for whatever its not worth.
Peace and good luck with your own journey wherever it may take you.
-Cookies
I admit I'm hesitant to go forth with the rest of this post since I'm coming from "the other side." That said for a mix on prospective here are my thoughts. Wanting amends is reasonable. Search for "amends" on this forum and you'll find tons and tons of posts which will reaffirm your desires which, if nothing else certainly will show you that you are not alone. During my almost ten months of sobriety I have spent many hours reading this forum trying to educate myself on "the other side." What I have seen as a pattern is people that say they want their better half to get sober, some do, and then loved ones are still deeply unhappy. The common thread seems to be if they were really honest they really want a different person. Some alcoholics will go on deep soul searching trips and become new people but many will not. In full disclosure in my situation I've spent much of my sober emotional capitol on digging through the issues that led to a lot of self medication to begin with, the outsider may not see that, and doubtless that it likely frustrating for those around me. However in my case getting to my roots has been necessary to avoid the temptation once again to self medicate. So far so good (knocking on wood).
I digress, as many have already pointed out to you, sounds like you are now married to a dry drunk and you don't want that. Your wants and desires are not unreasonable but you may NEVER GET THAT with your husband drunk or sober. For a time I kept up with various peoples stories here but I admit as of late I have not so I don't know your whole history. I will say that early on in my sobriety, and even very recently I have confided frustrations with my better half's behavior, yelled, screamed, and basically had tantrums with friends and had people say "all well and good have you told HIM xyz?" The answer of course was no, I had not. I candidly admit its a heckuva a lot easier to tell everyone else but him my gripes because the reality is if we do, and they don't respond the way we want then we have to accept the status quo. The problem is that this breeds an unhealthy self perpetuating pattern. I would say that I have been guilty of the same pattern your husband has been in. I have been perceived, rightfully so, of being chatty and open with everyone BUT HIM. This is something that I need to work on, as he's embraced Al-Anon and worked the steps he is become easier to talk to, feel like I can share without being attacked and judged. Changing longterm ingrained patterns is a long process particularly in long relationships with deeply embedded patterns to break on both sides.
I digress again. The question is have you made your wants and desires clear to him in a non-confrontational manner? Does your husband KNOW why you feel like making amends is important to your children? If he does not then you need to be crystal clear. If the status quo with communication in your marriage is not acceptable then get counseling and figure out if it is possible. If not then as many others have already pointed out rather than miserable and angry for the rest of your life you may need to look at some hard choices of whether this is a relationship you want to continue. The status quo based on what I've read is misery on your part. I hope you are able to get a good counselor who will help you through this next phase of recovery wherever it may lead.
Just my 28.57 cents for whatever its not worth.
Peace and good luck with your own journey wherever it may take you.
-Cookies
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