biminiblue

Yes, well we like a challenge.

It's almost like a way to validate our belief that everyone will leave. At least that's the negative way of looking at it. I also think there are just a lot of men who are cautious (and rightly so) or who have not gotten over a past hurt. It takes time to work through that and it cannot be rushed. Physical intimacy feels "too fast" emotionally, but biologically it is an imperative.

Honestly, I am happier single. I used to think I needed a relationship - but I'd rather not deal with all the drama, thankyouverymuch. Everyone has their isms. Many people are not ready. It's a numbers game, Nuu. Keep trying, if that's what you want. Every relationship teaches a little more. Unfortunately what I learned is I don't have the stomach for it. It took me many tries to get to this point - and I made some unbelievably bad choices.

I can't know what's going on with someone until I've spent quite a lot of time with them.

A guy that looked good for quite a few months turned out to be a serial cheater. I didn't see that coming, and he didn't believe there was anything wrong with that. Maybe if I had taken my time with him, I would have sussed that out. Turns out that was a life-belief for him. I never bothered to discuss that, because I'd never run across that before.

For me, it is far easier to let them go if I haven't slept with them. The Oxytocin that is released in sexual encounters is too much for me to "get over" easily. That bond is like super glue. I find it's hard enough to let go of a relationship that has not become physical.

Nuudawn

Love all you're saying here. I have now firmly committed to at least one year of emotional sobriety (from men, wine, nicotine etc etc) before I venture into any more unknowns. In the meantime, I have a move and finding a job to deal with in addition to recovery.

What I find interesting bout my most recent ex is how many red flags I saw..and minimized. Because I held this belief of who I thought he was in high school...and there was no visible addiction ..and he is financially stable..good dad..well educated yadda yadda.. and well, my own shaky self esteem right now...I just minimized all my nigglings...

Like "Hmmm...you just used the "c" word in reference to a woman" or "Hmmm...both your ex'es are crazy biotches". That one I actually called him on and said "you know that's a red flag right?". He said "who wrote that...probably a woman..probably a crazy woman..ha ha ha".

There were other things...but most curious was this feeling that he "wasn't there..wasn't connected". There was no passion in his kiss..and well..really none in the bedroom. Whether it was out for dinner or in the bedroom..I felt like a one woman show in a lot of respects. The kisses were flat...no passion..no urgency. He didn't seem to think my jokes were funny..nor smiled knowingly at anything I said...he was "disconnected"

I suppose in my desperate desire to "connect" I figured sex would make that happen. Uh ..yeah...no. Did I mention that man had not actually had sex since his "wedding night" with the woman he divorced 3 years ago.

But he was tall and good looking and had a nice place..and was kind and charming in many other ways. Was a well respected dad and professional. Since he didn't press for sex..at all ..or even making it out..I thought he was a gentlemen.

Ya...so all of this..despite all my nigglings (and there were plenty actually) I hop in the sack with the guy (which was mechanical and flat on his part)...

Ya ya...and still I CHASE this when he seems to shut down further...when he ignores me and my abandonment issues kicks in and my addiction HIJACKS my brain. And I pursue...

In hindsight...wow...awesome. I'm in recovery. And I wll not fall prey to avoidants and addicts anymore...when I get healthier...a year from now lol.

I read this passage from The Message this morning. I just opened up the book randomly and there is was:
"You don't get wormy apples off a healthy tree nor good apples off a diseased tree. The health of the apples tells the health of the tree. You must begin with your own life giving lives"

fluffyflea

Step One We admitted we were powerless over our addiction that our lives had become unmanageable.

SoberLeigh

Prediction, Nuu:

Very, very soon, you will wonder why in the world you ever gave that guy so much headspace. He'll be ancient history.

Nuudawn

Thanks Earthworm. Yes did my Step One on this in my workbook this this morning. And now I am sitting around procrastinating rather than out there trying to find work.

Argh.

Off I go..I must go take care of "me".

CAPTAINZING2000

Relationships are difficult enough when you don't have substance abuse problems.
Emotionally we aren't real stable early in recovery.

biminiblue

Addicts have over-the-top abandonment issues. I read in a Love Addiction book (the 12 Step one) that all addictions stem from abandonment. I don't know if that is true, but I just read it a couple days ago.

In my case, it was THE force behind wanting to feel something - anything - that felt good. Drugs, sex, alcohol, they are all the same. I would overlook all the red flags to try to feel good or good enough or numb to the bad.

Hawks

It was explained to me step one is twofold.

First fold.... Admitted we are having some issues with alcohol (which puts it quite gently)

Second fold.... Admitted we are having some issues with sobriety too.

Hence, alcohol is not mentioned again through the other steps.


(steps 1-3 are becoming willing, steps 4-9 are how you do it, steps 10, 11 & 12 are how you keep it done)

Simple?

Yes

Easy?

It varies

Hawks

See below

SoberLeigh

Interesting, very interesting.

ShootingStar1

Someone on this Board used to cite what she called "An Old Cherokee Proverb":

When horse dies,
Dismount.

Kind of says it all, but hard to do.

There is a great book called The Betrayal Bond that talks about how our original abandonment, most often as a child, sets us up to repeat that pattern and how to overcome that pattern.

ShootingStar1

Nuudawn

Make sense to me. My abandonment/rejection gremlin is HUGE..enormous. And I will chase losses (and men really not worthy of all the fuss)..all brimming with shame and low self esteem ..just to avoid that feeling of abandonment.

I was thinking bout that whole overlooking/minimizing/rejecting/denying red flags (because I have done it, over and over and over and ALWAYS shake my head in hindsight..SAW THAT!!!...

well, we have to...to get the fix.

Nuudawn

I love that. I think I should have it tattooed somewhere.

desypete

when i went on my mission for love as i had a good idea ( look out world when desy gets a good idea )

it seemed like what i needed to make life complete and for a happy sobriety was to have a loving caring women by my side
i would bring her roses home everyday from work we could cuddle up and watch tv we could make love like teenagers till the early hours of the morning
she would be my girl and i would be hers blah blah bloody blah : )

aa memebers in there gentle wisdom told me to grow up and get real to which i took offense as there not me and dont know me and its ok for them as they have a women who looks after them so i want one for me : )

i got a good suggestion given to me and it was go and see a prostitute for your sex needs and cut out all the emotional side of things as i was way to young to handle it

i got offended again at this idea how dare they say that to me as i didnt want sex i just wanted love

well after a good few tries and falling in love with every dam thing that so much as smiled at me i soon got to thinking maybe these guys know me a bit better than i know myself

the good news is that from every relationship that ended up pair shaped i did grow a bit more in seeing how i am in a relationship
my last one ended not so much as the other 3 that ended because of me and how dam clingly i was or how i would get upset if they didnt text me in less than a min flat when i had text them etc
the last one ended on a much more grown up way
we are still friends and she still thinks the world of me so that is a first for me so i did get a lot right but then i am 10 years sober and have had some experience of getting it all wrong

my son dying was the main factor of my last relationship coming to and end also my ex commitments with her grand kids that she had taken on as her own daugters lives are in a mess with drink and drugs
i had helped out in that area so much and was becoming a father figure for her grandkids over the 2 years me and her were together but when my own son got ill well i couldnt leave his side

so she had her life and i had my life we drifted apart when i needed someone to lean on most and its not her fault in anyway she was landed in a potion so it had to end beside which i just want my son back i am just not interested in other things like a relationship anymore

so anyway the point to this long winded speech is we do grow from our bad experiences
and the amazing thing is nu you havent picked up a drink on a failed relationship : )

well done on that big time : )

soberlicious

I see that shootingstar mentioned The Betrayal Bond. All of Patrick Carnes' work is wonderful and was instrumental in helping me recognize and alter my patterns of behaviors related to love and sex. My therapist gave me the Carnes books to read. Worth a look, for sure, Nuu. They really helped me a lot.

Aellyce

So interesting discussion here. I hope you are feeling better today, Nuu.

I just want to share with you part of my therapy experience from this year. We addressed what they call attachment styles. It wasn't first time for me to investigate this about myself, and figure out basically the same thing, that I am pretty normal and "conventional" in this area. They call this "secure" attachment style. In the theory, they like to trace back the origin of these "styles" to our childhood and our relationship with our caregivers (parents, etc). Read up on it if you have not yet.

I personally really like to be in a relationship. For me, when it's a good one, it's probably the best relaxation and peaceful fulfillment that I know. But I did not always do it with the right people... I've figured this out myself, but my therapist confirmed, that sometimes (often) I attract people who have a different orientation to romantic relationships, and even just general, relationships... Avoidant, or anxious. For me, it's part of a much larger personality construct, that I love problem solving (and it easily becomes a defensive mechanism in all affairs), and sometimes extend this to my relationships also... But for me, it's not an issue with love, sex, and relationships. I just project it that way sometimes.

The experience you have shared about his kiss and the sex lacking passion - I relate only because I experienced this a few times in my life, but not many times, so more an exception. My reaction? I ran and never looked back. I did not even question myself because I knew it was not me. Never gave me a self-esteem issue. I just knew it wasn't me, and never wanted to dwell on it. I also think this has nothing, or very little, to do with sobriety.

Nuu.... my friend... as you probably know already, you will need to work through a lot of things about how you relate to interpersonal relationships, romantic ones and others. And I will add: choose the right people to help you and go with you on the "trip".
Love does not have to be crazy! Seriously. It does not. It can be one of the most peace- and serenity-inducing experiences known to man! But we need to find what and who is best for us

Nuudawn

Yes, I do see that my friend....

And yes, I am familiar with attachment style theory. I do believe I am what this camp calls an "anxious avoidant". I am a seeker of all knowledge in this respect. One of my defense mechanisms is researching and intellectualizing.

Like alcohol...this particular addiction/obsession is just another place I hide from intimacy. There were so much I did not put together before reaching "my bottom" the other day.

At any rate, I am glad that it is not an issue or addiction you identify with. It's not fun. I do appreciate your well wishes though.

NYCDoglvr

You're in very early recovery. I'll repeat what my first AA sponsor advised: "one addiction at a time." She suggested I wait a year to quit smoking and to hold off on relationship for that long too. I'd let go of the guy and focus on alcohol.

Nuudawn

Guy is long gone. I moved 2400 km's away. Sorry..I also quit smoking. Ain't going to start again.