Giving AH money--enabling?
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Giving AH money--enabling?
I constantly struggle with this.. I have stopped enabling in many ways, thank God. But here's the situation:
He has stopped earning money--his business has flatlined. I do the bills, manage the money, etc. Every month I make up a budget and give each of us a certain allotment (I do the Dave Ramsey system, so this allotment would be what he calls "blow money"--a name I'm not crazy about, however, it simply means the money each person gets to do with as he/she pleases).
We've had to really cut down this month and also I'll have restricted budget next month also because I had a slow first quarter myself. He smokes, so part of the budgeted "blow money" for him is his cigars, which I kind of fold into his "blow money."
Because of our tight budget, and because I well know his spending patterns (every dime he gets goes for tobacco, lottery tickets and/or vodka), it's very apparent that I'm giving him money every day to go buy alcohol--even though of course, that's never stated explicitly. The daily amount covers his smoking + $8 extra.
If I am simply handing him a budgeted allotment for his own personal spending, is that enabling if I know darn well it's going directly to the liquor store? I get an allotment, too, and I don't feel I have to explain mine--why should he explain his?
Sounds like a simple question, but these are the things that always confuse me. I don't want to "control" his behavior, but I also don't want to enable the drinking.
He has stopped earning money--his business has flatlined. I do the bills, manage the money, etc. Every month I make up a budget and give each of us a certain allotment (I do the Dave Ramsey system, so this allotment would be what he calls "blow money"--a name I'm not crazy about, however, it simply means the money each person gets to do with as he/she pleases).
We've had to really cut down this month and also I'll have restricted budget next month also because I had a slow first quarter myself. He smokes, so part of the budgeted "blow money" for him is his cigars, which I kind of fold into his "blow money."
Because of our tight budget, and because I well know his spending patterns (every dime he gets goes for tobacco, lottery tickets and/or vodka), it's very apparent that I'm giving him money every day to go buy alcohol--even though of course, that's never stated explicitly. The daily amount covers his smoking + $8 extra.
If I am simply handing him a budgeted allotment for his own personal spending, is that enabling if I know darn well it's going directly to the liquor store? I get an allotment, too, and I don't feel I have to explain mine--why should he explain his?
Sounds like a simple question, but these are the things that always confuse me. I don't want to "control" his behavior, but I also don't want to enable the drinking.
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SoloMio---I understand your dilemma. I think it becomes a grey area, sometimes. Personally, I do not view you as enabling him by this. That is the way I see it. There is no way you are going to be able to control his drinking, anyway.
If you gave him zero money--he will still find a way to get alcohol. He might steal, bum or beg from others, trade services for liquor, drink the mouthwash, etc. Alcoholics will find a way. You could lock him in a steel cage with a stationed armed guard outside the cage door---but, could you live like that?
Solo--this is my view. Others might have a different take on it.
dandylion
If you gave him zero money--he will still find a way to get alcohol. He might steal, bum or beg from others, trade services for liquor, drink the mouthwash, etc. Alcoholics will find a way. You could lock him in a steel cage with a stationed armed guard outside the cage door---but, could you live like that?
Solo--this is my view. Others might have a different take on it.
dandylion
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That is tough. I think if you each have a small discretionary account per month that the other has no voice about, then you should keep that. What if he objected to what you spent money on? What if roles were reversed and you had to take money from him and he decided he didn't like what you were buying?
The bigger picture is that he is an A, it seems.
The bigger picture is that he is an A, it seems.
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I don't think it's a question of enabling.
You're in a relationship with an alcoholic. So am I!
They drink and are going to continue drinking unless they don't want to anymore.
Agrees with Missfixit--what if he decides he wants to cut down on your shoes fund? purse fund? books fund? Fresh veggies fund? Victoria's secret fund? Feminine hygiene products fund? Yikes!
You're in a relationship with an alcoholic. So am I!
They drink and are going to continue drinking unless they don't want to anymore.
Agrees with Missfixit--what if he decides he wants to cut down on your shoes fund? purse fund? books fund? Fresh veggies fund? Victoria's secret fund? Feminine hygiene products fund? Yikes!
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Thank you.. and for confirming what I was thinking. I guess enabling is the act of coming between the A and the natural consequences of their behavior.
So under normal circumstances, we would have this little personal fund, and no questions are asked. I take my few bucks and buy a book or go to a movie with a friend. He takes his and spends it on vodka.
However, if he runs out of money in the middle of the week because he spent it on alcohol and he comes asking for more, then enabling would be taking money out of the food budget to give him more than his budgeted allotment for himself, which, of course, will wind up being spent on alcohol.
I think I got it.
So under normal circumstances, we would have this little personal fund, and no questions are asked. I take my few bucks and buy a book or go to a movie with a friend. He takes his and spends it on vodka.
However, if he runs out of money in the middle of the week because he spent it on alcohol and he comes asking for more, then enabling would be taking money out of the food budget to give him more than his budgeted allotment for himself, which, of course, will wind up being spent on alcohol.
I think I got it.
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BTW: Here is an interesting "enabler's checklist" because it deals more with the attitudes of the enablers. Typically, I've seen the ones that are more behavior-oriented, like, do you call up the boss for him, or do you pay his bills for him.
This is Dr. Phil's enabler checklist, and I have to say, I had to check a number of the items.
1) Do you avoid potential problems by trying to keep the peace? Do you do whatever you can to avoid conflict because doing so will solve problems?
2) Are you in denial about your loved one being addicted? Do you think his or her drug or alcohol use is just a phase and isn't anything to be concerned about?
3) Do you have a hard time expressing your feelings? Do you keep all your emotions inside?
4) Do you minimize the situation? Do you think the problem will get better later?
5) Do you lecture, blame or criticize the chemically dependent person?
6) Do you take over the responsibilities of the addicted person? Do you cover for and pick up his or her slack to minimize the negative consequences? Do you repeatedly come to the rescue — bailing him or her out of jail, out of financial problems or other tight spots?
7) Do you try to protect your addicted loved one from pain?
8) Do you treat him or her like a child? Do you enjoy taking care of your loved one and feel superior when you do? Do you still financially support him or her, even though he or she is an adult?
9) Do you try to control the dependent person?
10) Are you good at just enduring? Do you often think, this too shall pass?
11) Do you believe in waiting? That God will take care of this?
12) Do you give him or her one more chance, then another and yet another?
13) Do you join him or her in the dangerous behavior, even when you know he or she has a problem?
This is Dr. Phil's enabler checklist, and I have to say, I had to check a number of the items.
1) Do you avoid potential problems by trying to keep the peace? Do you do whatever you can to avoid conflict because doing so will solve problems?
2) Are you in denial about your loved one being addicted? Do you think his or her drug or alcohol use is just a phase and isn't anything to be concerned about?
3) Do you have a hard time expressing your feelings? Do you keep all your emotions inside?
4) Do you minimize the situation? Do you think the problem will get better later?
5) Do you lecture, blame or criticize the chemically dependent person?
6) Do you take over the responsibilities of the addicted person? Do you cover for and pick up his or her slack to minimize the negative consequences? Do you repeatedly come to the rescue — bailing him or her out of jail, out of financial problems or other tight spots?
7) Do you try to protect your addicted loved one from pain?
8) Do you treat him or her like a child? Do you enjoy taking care of your loved one and feel superior when you do? Do you still financially support him or her, even though he or she is an adult?
9) Do you try to control the dependent person?
10) Are you good at just enduring? Do you often think, this too shall pass?
11) Do you believe in waiting? That God will take care of this?
12) Do you give him or her one more chance, then another and yet another?
13) Do you join him or her in the dangerous behavior, even when you know he or she has a problem?
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ummm, Dave Ramsey does not exactly teach that Baby Boy gets an allowance for funding the Sh1t-Head-Trifecta* (cigarettes, beer, and a lottery ticket), does he?
Would be interested to see that in some of Dave's stuff, because he is almost as big a jackass as me on some stuff, and I would just like to see how he phrased it.
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* The Sh1t-Head-Trifecta was a term we used back when I ran a traveling work crew. At the END of the work day (never lunch time, I would put lunch for everyone on the travel card) I would give them all each a $20 bill and THAT is/was exactly what the guys who were chronic Sh1t-Heads would do -- go buy their beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets -- spend the whole thing, and barely have a dime left. The hotel, breakfast, and supper -- if they showed up -- all went on the card.
For the chronic Sh1t-Heads, the paycheck went home around them, straight to Momma and the kids, else Momma and the kids would not have food, diapers, or a house, as their Traveling Sh1t-Head would have spent the paycheck on . . . beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets. It was just an amazing thing to watch.
While I did that to keep any crisis down -- If a guy's family was in crisis, it would harm the project -- I never really understood the wives I would meet and who would cry and say how happy they were about this, and thank me.
I do now.
Would be interested to see that in some of Dave's stuff, because he is almost as big a jackass as me on some stuff, and I would just like to see how he phrased it.
-------------------
* The Sh1t-Head-Trifecta was a term we used back when I ran a traveling work crew. At the END of the work day (never lunch time, I would put lunch for everyone on the travel card) I would give them all each a $20 bill and THAT is/was exactly what the guys who were chronic Sh1t-Heads would do -- go buy their beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets -- spend the whole thing, and barely have a dime left. The hotel, breakfast, and supper -- if they showed up -- all went on the card.
For the chronic Sh1t-Heads, the paycheck went home around them, straight to Momma and the kids, else Momma and the kids would not have food, diapers, or a house, as their Traveling Sh1t-Head would have spent the paycheck on . . . beer, cigarettes, and lottery tickets. It was just an amazing thing to watch.
While I did that to keep any crisis down -- If a guy's family was in crisis, it would harm the project -- I never really understood the wives I would meet and who would cry and say how happy they were about this, and thank me.
I do now.
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but Hammer, if she took away his alcohol allowance and he's alcohol dependent, he is going to drink somehow.
I'd hate to think of what he would have to do to get the money. Something's going to the pawn shop.
If it's his watch, fine, but if it ends up next time being her gold bracelet, this control maneuver would end up causing a worse problem than just accepting he drinks and he at this point HAS TO.
I'd hate to think of what he would have to do to get the money. Something's going to the pawn shop.
If it's his watch, fine, but if it ends up next time being her gold bracelet, this control maneuver would end up causing a worse problem than just accepting he drinks and he at this point HAS TO.
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it seems that the "problem" isn't really what YOU do or possibly enable, it's the FACT that he DRINKS. still. always. no matter what. whether there's a thousand dollars in the bank, or he has three singles and some change in his pocket. drinking is his PRIORITY and you can't change that.
now, as the sole provider, there is a direct line between your income and the bottle in his hand. and lottery tickets. and cigars. those are extravagances that a family in financial constraints cannot afford. hard@ss that i am i'd cut off his blow money. if he wants his booze and lotto and ceegars SO damn bad, he can very well go earn some $$, instead of being a perpetual drain on the resources.
now, as the sole provider, there is a direct line between your income and the bottle in his hand. and lottery tickets. and cigars. those are extravagances that a family in financial constraints cannot afford. hard@ss that i am i'd cut off his blow money. if he wants his booze and lotto and ceegars SO damn bad, he can very well go earn some $$, instead of being a perpetual drain on the resources.
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Originally Posted by BlueSkies1 
but Hammer, if she took away his alcohol allowance and he's alcohol dependent, he is going to drink somehow.
I'd hate to think of what he would have to do to get the money. Something's going to the pawn shop.
If it's his watch, fine, but if it ends up next time being her gold bracelet, this control maneuver would end up causing a worse problem than just accepting he drinks and he at this point HAS TO.
I'd hate to think of what he would have to do to get the money. Something's going to the pawn shop.
If it's his watch, fine, but if it ends up next time being her gold bracelet, this control maneuver would end up causing a worse problem than just accepting he drinks and he at this point HAS TO.
You cannot control an A any more than you can push a string.
And even worse (for us) being tied up into the A's foolishness prevents US from working on US, and that prevents US from getting better. (I like the ratio of A to US in that sentence. Only one ref to an A, and three to US. Recovery is a beautifully selfish thing.)
I was just asking if Dave Ramsey advocated giving an A "resource money." What I have seen of D.R. is for financially struggling folks. I am pretty sure I have heard him say VERY clearly that when there are martial and addiction problems -- trying to work on money problems makes NO Sense, as money is not where the problem is in those cases.
---------------------------------
I agree with you that giving money to Baby Boys and A's is a mess.
Personally I would avoid doing it. But that is just me, based on my own experience.
Mrs. Hammer started trying to steal her own Therapy Money -- you follow? Pretending that money for T had been "lost," and changing money amounts on Therapy receipts, on and on.
A's are resourceful. After I called bs on that, Mrs. Hammer had her mom sneak-sending in Cash and Credit Cards in socks. You are right -- A's find a way.
As far as Career A's -- like Solo's. Even they find a way. I had to travel down into the old bombed part of Dallas, yesterday. Seen some Career A's out picking cans (aluminum) and pan-handling.
Maybe think of this like investing. What you fund, you will have more of. Keep funding an A, and you are going to have more that.
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I agree with anvil. It's not really shared income, it's you paying to keep a roof over his head, food in his mouth and beer in his throat. Why should he go get a job? It's perfect.
My first serious ex and I were in a similar position to you. It was only when I woke up and refused to support him at all, that he went and got a job. I actually told him to live back with his parents.
Just because you have spending money doesn't mean he should. It's your income. To me, the question is not whether you would be controlling him, the question is why do you feel you have to give him your spending money? I think it is enabling him, this is something I have spent years doing exactly like you. It doesn't have a happy ending.
My first serious ex and I were in a similar position to you. It was only when I woke up and refused to support him at all, that he went and got a job. I actually told him to live back with his parents.
Just because you have spending money doesn't mean he should. It's your income. To me, the question is not whether you would be controlling him, the question is why do you feel you have to give him your spending money? I think it is enabling him, this is something I have spent years doing exactly like you. It doesn't have a happy ending.
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Thanks for the thoughts and "tough love." Hammer, yes, one of the reasons I LOVE Dave Ramsey is because when someone like me gets on the phone, he blows holes right through the cr*p in his DR no-nonsense way. Actually, Hammer, you're kind of like him! 
anvil and shil, thanks for allowing me to see that battening up the hatches is a fair option to consider.
anvil and shil, thanks for allowing me to see that battening up the hatches is a fair option to consider.
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Originally Posted by shil2587
I agree with anvil. It's not really shared income, it's you paying to keep a roof over his head, food in his mouth and beer in his throat. Why should he go get a job? It's perfect.
My first serious ex and I were in a similar position to you. It was only when I woke up and refused to support him at all, that he went and got a job. I actually told him to live back with his parents.
Just because you have spending money doesn't mean he should. It's your income. To me, the question is not whether you would be controlling him, the question is why do you feel you have to give him your spending money? I think it is enabling him, this is something I have spent years doing exactly like you. It doesn't have a happy ending.
My first serious ex and I were in a similar position to you. It was only when I woke up and refused to support him at all, that he went and got a job. I actually told him to live back with his parents.
Just because you have spending money doesn't mean he should. It's your income. To me, the question is not whether you would be controlling him, the question is why do you feel you have to give him your spending money? I think it is enabling him, this is something I have spent years doing exactly like you. It doesn't have a happy ending.
What if the roles were reversed and an Alcoholic breadwinner decided that his financially dependent spouse could no longer buy make up, cigarettes, candy bars because he didn't like her wearing make up, smoking, eating too much... People would call the guy a controlling jerk for that...Just food for thought...
If someone doesn't want to pay for someone else's booze and they are the breadwinner, then perhaps the relationship needs to be redefined or ended.
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MsFixit----Yes. That is what I was trying, indirectly to say, also....... This big picture is that he is an A, and they are in a functioning marriage.
dandylion
p.s.--Solo also indicated in her post that she didn't want to "control" his behavior...
dandylion
p.s.--Solo also indicated in her post that she didn't want to "control" his behavior...
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Originally Posted by MissFixit
What if the roles were reversed and an Alcoholic breadwinner decided that his financially dependent spouse could no longer buy make up, cigarettes, candy bars because he didn't like her wearing make up, smoking, eating too much... People would call the guy a controlling jerk for that...Just food for thought...
I had it double reversed. While she refused to work or even help me, (too busy on a bicycle and exercising 30 + hours a week -- just another form of drink, drink, drink), "WE" then spent all our money on her Rehab, and then T.
We had to go a budget, and she threw a fit that the money was being "controlled." Still refused to work, and threw fits that "WE" did not buy her a new car when she did get a job.
GTFU.
This is funny . . .
Urban Dictionary: GTFU
Used when adults are acting like kids. An adult is crying about somthing dumb in a forum or acting childish.
She threw tantrum fits to her AA Gossip Girls (who all actually HAD jobs and HELPED support their households).
Princess Mrs. Hammer just finally started paying her own phone bill last month.
If someone doesn't want to pay for someone else's booze and they are the breadwinner, then perhaps the relationship needs to be redefined or ended.
Probably should get her to cover some of the house, utils, etc., as well.
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