Don't know which end is up
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 59
Don't know which end is up
Hi. I'm new to all of this - and was hoping for some perspectives from others who have been there as I'm not sure which end is up and how to diagnose the issues that reside with my husband vs myself. I'm hoping some of you might be able to help.
I've been married 4 years. My husband has always been a heavy drinker - I observed this even in our dating days but I guess in hindsight I must have rationalized it as I never saw him drop down drunk. He drinks every day (although can go for days without if he so chooses), he drinks as part of his job (works in finance and there is an entertaining element nearly every weekday), he drinks on vacation all day long (starts on the plane with 2-3 double martinis at 9 am). He is rarely "smashed" but I would describe as drinking is a clear part of the fabric of his life.
Many many challenges have happened during the 4 years of our marriage including the detrimental effects of the economy on his business, a stressful home renovation, etc and over the last 1-2 years I've noticed his coping mechanism is to flee to the bar and to stay there for hours at a time often not coming home until anywhere between 11 pm - 6 am. He stops responding to texts while out and never answers when I ask what his ETA is. Sometimes he sends unprovoked nasty texts but oftentimes he just vanishes. Then the next day he acts like everything is normal.
Some of the drinking behavior got better when he changed jobs and the economy improved and the renovations ended. IN his mind he very directly draws a cause and effect between his drinking and the stress in his life from these external events. As he says - when those things stop I don't drink as much. And to an extent what he says is actually true. THe problem is that he still drinks - maybe it is less and maybe he is out late, but he still does it. The frequency decreases from say every day to 1-2 x / week but it is always there.
Over the past 1-2 years as I"ve been in therapy working on my own issues (not standing up for myself, rapid weight gain from binge eating) I"ve become much more aware that these behaviors of his don't work for me. And I"ve strated standing up for myself more and more. Just before Thanksgiving I finally worked up the courage to tell him my needs which included significant cutting down on his drinking (and housework, budget, and other routine stuff that he hasn't been pulling his weight on). What did he do? He told me he was leaving to take a walk and then spent the next 8 hours at the bar. He came home and told me it was too hard he couldn't do it (meaning all the needs not just the drinking).
He left and we essentially split up for 48 hours. He even got an apartment lease signed. Then he came back and was crying and upset and wanted to reconcile. He said he would do anything. I told him it would be a lot of work and we would have to go to couples counseling. He said he would do it.
NOw 3 months later he has been making an effort. He is trying to meet me halfway. The drinking hasn't changed but other behaviors have gotten better. The problem is that I just feel numb to it all. I feel like I've let myself down by letting him back in and that in not standing up for myself all those years I am leaving myself open to further disappointment in the future. I can't take that leap of faith with him now. He wants to and I don't. A year ago I would have jumped for joy to see him do this but there have just been too many incidents that I've had to accomodate and overlook for me to feel happy about the efforts he is putting in.
ON some level he must sense that as I've been clear in counseling that I'm still not sure that this will work whereas he wants to put all the bad stuff behnind and say let's move forward.
So last week I was in FLA for a business trip. While I was away we traded our normal texts about daily life and household stuff. nothing out of the ordinary. When I landed and he wanted to meet for dinner we set a plan. I show up exactly as agreed. IN response I get a bunch of nasty text messages about how I'm full of S**T and we are over, etc. Then he shows up and tells me I'm the most important thing in his life. Of course I can't accept that - I just feel numb from the messages. Then the next day he proceeds to leave and drink from noon until 6 am the following morning. Once he comes home he confesses that he was drinking the entire week I was away. He says it is becuase our relationship is in such a bad place and that I wasn't communicating the way he wanted during our text messages while I was away.
This is the crux of my struggle - on some level I think he is actually right! That the drinking is in response to our problems - I/ we are the cause and the drinking is the effect! On another level I think that is complete hogwash b/c I know that he drank before we met and drinks for other reasons. But I can't figure out how to stand my ground, figure out what is heatly for me, and at the same time not feel guilty or responsible for what he is doing and how he is feeling. The day he came home at 6 am we had a chat about it and I said you cannot behave this way. He seemed to get it but stated that he wouldn't if our relationship was OK. He said this is the one thing he doesn 't want to fail at, why can't we make it work, he wants to be my rock the way I am his, and he is crying and crying. It tears me up to see him this way but I am breaking under the weight of this and at this point I really feel nothing by way of the relationship other than I want him to be healthy and happy.
Please - what does this situation sound like to you? Has anyone had similar dynamics? I can't bear the thought of the pain that he is in related to us, but yet I know that I am not the sole cause of his pain. I feel like I am in a place where in this relationship only one of us gets to be happy - he does if I stay and I do if I leave. And I can't bear either outcome.
Any thoughts or advice? Thanks for hearing me out - I know this is a really long post.
I've been married 4 years. My husband has always been a heavy drinker - I observed this even in our dating days but I guess in hindsight I must have rationalized it as I never saw him drop down drunk. He drinks every day (although can go for days without if he so chooses), he drinks as part of his job (works in finance and there is an entertaining element nearly every weekday), he drinks on vacation all day long (starts on the plane with 2-3 double martinis at 9 am). He is rarely "smashed" but I would describe as drinking is a clear part of the fabric of his life.
Many many challenges have happened during the 4 years of our marriage including the detrimental effects of the economy on his business, a stressful home renovation, etc and over the last 1-2 years I've noticed his coping mechanism is to flee to the bar and to stay there for hours at a time often not coming home until anywhere between 11 pm - 6 am. He stops responding to texts while out and never answers when I ask what his ETA is. Sometimes he sends unprovoked nasty texts but oftentimes he just vanishes. Then the next day he acts like everything is normal.
Some of the drinking behavior got better when he changed jobs and the economy improved and the renovations ended. IN his mind he very directly draws a cause and effect between his drinking and the stress in his life from these external events. As he says - when those things stop I don't drink as much. And to an extent what he says is actually true. THe problem is that he still drinks - maybe it is less and maybe he is out late, but he still does it. The frequency decreases from say every day to 1-2 x / week but it is always there.
Over the past 1-2 years as I"ve been in therapy working on my own issues (not standing up for myself, rapid weight gain from binge eating) I"ve become much more aware that these behaviors of his don't work for me. And I"ve strated standing up for myself more and more. Just before Thanksgiving I finally worked up the courage to tell him my needs which included significant cutting down on his drinking (and housework, budget, and other routine stuff that he hasn't been pulling his weight on). What did he do? He told me he was leaving to take a walk and then spent the next 8 hours at the bar. He came home and told me it was too hard he couldn't do it (meaning all the needs not just the drinking).
He left and we essentially split up for 48 hours. He even got an apartment lease signed. Then he came back and was crying and upset and wanted to reconcile. He said he would do anything. I told him it would be a lot of work and we would have to go to couples counseling. He said he would do it.
NOw 3 months later he has been making an effort. He is trying to meet me halfway. The drinking hasn't changed but other behaviors have gotten better. The problem is that I just feel numb to it all. I feel like I've let myself down by letting him back in and that in not standing up for myself all those years I am leaving myself open to further disappointment in the future. I can't take that leap of faith with him now. He wants to and I don't. A year ago I would have jumped for joy to see him do this but there have just been too many incidents that I've had to accomodate and overlook for me to feel happy about the efforts he is putting in.
ON some level he must sense that as I've been clear in counseling that I'm still not sure that this will work whereas he wants to put all the bad stuff behnind and say let's move forward.
So last week I was in FLA for a business trip. While I was away we traded our normal texts about daily life and household stuff. nothing out of the ordinary. When I landed and he wanted to meet for dinner we set a plan. I show up exactly as agreed. IN response I get a bunch of nasty text messages about how I'm full of S**T and we are over, etc. Then he shows up and tells me I'm the most important thing in his life. Of course I can't accept that - I just feel numb from the messages. Then the next day he proceeds to leave and drink from noon until 6 am the following morning. Once he comes home he confesses that he was drinking the entire week I was away. He says it is becuase our relationship is in such a bad place and that I wasn't communicating the way he wanted during our text messages while I was away.
This is the crux of my struggle - on some level I think he is actually right! That the drinking is in response to our problems - I/ we are the cause and the drinking is the effect! On another level I think that is complete hogwash b/c I know that he drank before we met and drinks for other reasons. But I can't figure out how to stand my ground, figure out what is heatly for me, and at the same time not feel guilty or responsible for what he is doing and how he is feeling. The day he came home at 6 am we had a chat about it and I said you cannot behave this way. He seemed to get it but stated that he wouldn't if our relationship was OK. He said this is the one thing he doesn 't want to fail at, why can't we make it work, he wants to be my rock the way I am his, and he is crying and crying. It tears me up to see him this way but I am breaking under the weight of this and at this point I really feel nothing by way of the relationship other than I want him to be healthy and happy.
Please - what does this situation sound like to you? Has anyone had similar dynamics? I can't bear the thought of the pain that he is in related to us, but yet I know that I am not the sole cause of his pain. I feel like I am in a place where in this relationship only one of us gets to be happy - he does if I stay and I do if I leave. And I can't bear either outcome.
Any thoughts or advice? Thanks for hearing me out - I know this is a really long post.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: The Pit of Despair
Posts: 148
DO. NOT. DO. THAT. TO. YOURSELF. PERIOD.
Do NOT blame yourself for his drinking and behavior.
As with most of these alcoholics they prefer to point (see my last post for reference) the finger at others and RARELY do they ever accept responsibility for their own actions.
Its not your responsibility to make him happy, its your responsibility to make YOU happy.
Do NOT blame yourself for his drinking and behavior.
As with most of these alcoholics they prefer to point (see my last post for reference) the finger at others and RARELY do they ever accept responsibility for their own actions.
Its not your responsibility to make him happy, its your responsibility to make YOU happy.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 6,780
There's absolutely no way you are responsible for his drinking, just like you aren't responsible to help or make him quit. Reading over your story, he has a million excuses to drink - his job, you, the economy, the renovations... and on it goes. There will always be "something" wrong in our lives if we look for a place to place blame all the time.
Everything that you describe is stuff that we've all heard and/or seen before, so you've definitely found a great place of understanding here. I think if you are new to the website, and especially to addiction & recovery, that you would get a lot of information out of the stickey'ed posts at the top of this forum's main page.
Everything that you describe is stuff that we've all heard and/or seen before, so you've definitely found a great place of understanding here. I think if you are new to the website, and especially to addiction & recovery, that you would get a lot of information out of the stickey'ed posts at the top of this forum's main page.
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
You need to get yourself support via therapy and/or meetings at Alanon or Celebrate Recovery. I know what it is like living with someone who does this. The blame game is endless...it is also a pile of BS. You don't cause his drinking or the fallout from it anymore than you could cause the sun to shine in the morning and the stars at night.
Please read and if you are open to it the meetings will really help you in having face to face support for you.
Please read and if you are open to it the meetings will really help you in having face to face support for you.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
Welcome. I'm sorry you find yourself here, but I know you can get some good information here as well -- so you're in the right place, just sucks you have to be here.
First of all, you sound a lot like I did when I first came here. For years, I kept saying my husband wasn't an alcoholic (because like yours, he kept a good job, was a pillar in the community, didn't sleep under a bridge, and wore a suit and tie). Someone finally told me that it didn't matter what I called it, his drinking behavior was a problem to me, and it was up to me to figure out how I wanted to approach that problem.
I can relate to this also. I won't recap my whole story but by the time AXH decided to go to rehab and get sober, the hurt and pain he had inflicted on me and the kids was too much. As it turns out, he didn't stay sober (and today even denies being an alcoholic), but even if he had, there was simply no love left. I had no trust for him, and without trust, there was no relationship.
As women, we are often raised to put the needs of others ahead of our own -- even to the point of feeling guilty if we don't. It took me a LONG time to accept, understand, and feel that I had an absolute right to leave a relationship that was destroying my spirit. I spent many, many years being miserable and trying to find a good enough reason to leave. I kept thinking things like "if only he cheated on me, I could leave" and "if only he would hit me, I could leave."
I kept looking for reasons that other people would accept as good enough for leaving. I didn't trust that my reasons were good enough. I wanted everyone around us to say "oh yes, of course she can't live like that -- she's a saint for having put up with him for as long as she did."
It didn't happen that way. I lost many, many friends along the way -- people who listened to his story and decided to side with him. Decided that I was crazy to leave this rich man and our cushy lifestyle and clearly, I was having some kind of mental breakdown or something. What. Evah. The people who were really my friends, who really knew me, congratulated me. (My two closest friends offered to lend me money for my divorce lawyer, because they said they had been waiting for me to take that step so I and the kids could be happy again.)
It's a difficult, difficult step to take to say "my husband is an alcoholic."
I felt like if I admitted that, I also had to act. Like NOW. When I started going to Al-Anon, and started posting here, I a) was looking for a tool kit to make my husband stop drinking; b) feeling like I didn't really belong because my marriage was different; c) was ready to jump into action.
It was very frustrating to get the feedback I got.
In Al-Anon, they didn't have that handbook I wanted "How to get your spouse to become sober in ten easy steps" -- on the contrary, they taught me how to detach from his drinking and be able to live a decent life while I figured out what action to take. From the first time I walked into a meeting till the day I left was over four years. And that's now four years ago.
Here, people kept telling me that alcoholics tend to act in similar manners to protect their addiction, and that whether the alcoholic lives under a bridge or frequents the Royal British Court, those protective actions look the same.
They also told me no matter what excuses AXH used, he drank because he was an alcoholic. Not because work was stressful (frequent excuse in my old house), because I wouldn't have sex with him, because the fish I had cooked for dinner was dry, because the kids were fighting, because they didn't do their chores, etc.
I found people's way of talking about alcoholics here harsh and lacking in understanding and love. It took me a while to realize that if love could make an addict quit using, then these boards wouldn't be here.
That is a classic excuse that I've heard a million times. Before and after the divorce, AXH blamed me for his drinking. If only I were skinnier, prettier, made more money (you can add anything you want here) he wouldn't have to drink. I believed him for many years.
But look for a moment at what you're saying. He says because you didn't act like he wanted, he had to drink. Let me ask you this: Has it ever happened that a person in your life has acted in a way contrary to what you would like them to? Did you take that as license to go to the bar and get drunk off your rocker?
A non-addict deals with reality without drinking. A healthy person understands that there are disappointments in life and that they happen to everyone. The world isn't out to get anyone specifically. The universe doesn't hate individual beings and go after them.
A healthy person understands that you can't change another person. The willingness to change has to come from within a person. If you want to, you can get sober. If you don't, not all the king's horses and all the king's men can make you.
By the time I post this, someone will probably have beat me to it -- but Al-Anon talks about the three Cs: You didn't CAUSE his drinking, you can't CONTROL it, and you can't CURE it.
Whatever reasons he gives you for drinking are qualified BS that he uses to be able to maintain his drinking. Addictions do that to people. I know. I'm a nicotine addict myself, and the hoops I make my mind jump through in order to justify why I need to by a pack of nicotine gums would make you laugh hysterically. It makes no sense. The addiction always aims to perpetuate itself, and will make the "host organism" fight anyone who gets between them and the addiction.
One thing that helped me was to give up hope.
I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but it did help to look at it that way.
I was hoping that my husband would quit drinking and once again become the person I had fallen in love with. Someone here asked me, "If that never happened -- if you had to live with your husband the way he is today for the rest of your life... is that what you would want from your life?"
I decided it wasn't.
Other people make other decisions. I have a good friend who is a sober alcoholic -- all it took for her to stop drinking was her husband calling her from work one day and saying two words: "Get. Help." She could hear it and do it because she was ready to. She's been sober ten years and never taken a drink. Another recovering alcoholic friend has been sober 30 years with a couple of relapses and his wife said it took a good 15 after he entered rehab for their marriage to be back to a good place. A third friend takes a couple of relapses a year and his wife has accepted this and is staying with him.
There are no right or wrong answers here. But the bottom line is -- you don't need anyone else's permission to live your life the way you want to. You have an absolute right to leave a dysfunctional marriage where the booze has replaced you at the top of the list of priorities in your husband's life. An absolute right.
First of all, you sound a lot like I did when I first came here. For years, I kept saying my husband wasn't an alcoholic (because like yours, he kept a good job, was a pillar in the community, didn't sleep under a bridge, and wore a suit and tie). Someone finally told me that it didn't matter what I called it, his drinking behavior was a problem to me, and it was up to me to figure out how I wanted to approach that problem.
I can't take that leap of faith with him now. He wants to and I don't. A year ago I would have jumped for joy to see him do this but there have just been too many incidents that I've had to accomodate and overlook for me to feel happy about the efforts he is putting in.
I feel like I am in a place where in this relationship only one of us gets to be happy - he does if I stay and I do if I leave. And I can't bear either outcome.
I kept looking for reasons that other people would accept as good enough for leaving. I didn't trust that my reasons were good enough. I wanted everyone around us to say "oh yes, of course she can't live like that -- she's a saint for having put up with him for as long as she did."
It didn't happen that way. I lost many, many friends along the way -- people who listened to his story and decided to side with him. Decided that I was crazy to leave this rich man and our cushy lifestyle and clearly, I was having some kind of mental breakdown or something. What. Evah. The people who were really my friends, who really knew me, congratulated me. (My two closest friends offered to lend me money for my divorce lawyer, because they said they had been waiting for me to take that step so I and the kids could be happy again.)
It's a difficult, difficult step to take to say "my husband is an alcoholic."
I felt like if I admitted that, I also had to act. Like NOW. When I started going to Al-Anon, and started posting here, I a) was looking for a tool kit to make my husband stop drinking; b) feeling like I didn't really belong because my marriage was different; c) was ready to jump into action.
It was very frustrating to get the feedback I got.
In Al-Anon, they didn't have that handbook I wanted "How to get your spouse to become sober in ten easy steps" -- on the contrary, they taught me how to detach from his drinking and be able to live a decent life while I figured out what action to take. From the first time I walked into a meeting till the day I left was over four years. And that's now four years ago.
Here, people kept telling me that alcoholics tend to act in similar manners to protect their addiction, and that whether the alcoholic lives under a bridge or frequents the Royal British Court, those protective actions look the same.
They also told me no matter what excuses AXH used, he drank because he was an alcoholic. Not because work was stressful (frequent excuse in my old house), because I wouldn't have sex with him, because the fish I had cooked for dinner was dry, because the kids were fighting, because they didn't do their chores, etc.
I found people's way of talking about alcoholics here harsh and lacking in understanding and love. It took me a while to realize that if love could make an addict quit using, then these boards wouldn't be here.
he was drinking the entire week I was away. He says it is becuase our relationship is in such a bad place and that I wasn't communicating the way he wanted during our text messages while I was away.
But look for a moment at what you're saying. He says because you didn't act like he wanted, he had to drink. Let me ask you this: Has it ever happened that a person in your life has acted in a way contrary to what you would like them to? Did you take that as license to go to the bar and get drunk off your rocker?
A non-addict deals with reality without drinking. A healthy person understands that there are disappointments in life and that they happen to everyone. The world isn't out to get anyone specifically. The universe doesn't hate individual beings and go after them.
A healthy person understands that you can't change another person. The willingness to change has to come from within a person. If you want to, you can get sober. If you don't, not all the king's horses and all the king's men can make you.
By the time I post this, someone will probably have beat me to it -- but Al-Anon talks about the three Cs: You didn't CAUSE his drinking, you can't CONTROL it, and you can't CURE it.
Whatever reasons he gives you for drinking are qualified BS that he uses to be able to maintain his drinking. Addictions do that to people. I know. I'm a nicotine addict myself, and the hoops I make my mind jump through in order to justify why I need to by a pack of nicotine gums would make you laugh hysterically. It makes no sense. The addiction always aims to perpetuate itself, and will make the "host organism" fight anyone who gets between them and the addiction.
One thing that helped me was to give up hope.
I know that sounds counter-intuitive, but it did help to look at it that way.
I was hoping that my husband would quit drinking and once again become the person I had fallen in love with. Someone here asked me, "If that never happened -- if you had to live with your husband the way he is today for the rest of your life... is that what you would want from your life?"
I decided it wasn't.
Other people make other decisions. I have a good friend who is a sober alcoholic -- all it took for her to stop drinking was her husband calling her from work one day and saying two words: "Get. Help." She could hear it and do it because she was ready to. She's been sober ten years and never taken a drink. Another recovering alcoholic friend has been sober 30 years with a couple of relapses and his wife said it took a good 15 after he entered rehab for their marriage to be back to a good place. A third friend takes a couple of relapses a year and his wife has accepted this and is staying with him.
There are no right or wrong answers here. But the bottom line is -- you don't need anyone else's permission to live your life the way you want to. You have an absolute right to leave a dysfunctional marriage where the booze has replaced you at the top of the list of priorities in your husband's life. An absolute right.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 59
Dear lillamy, hoepful4, firesprite, Ofelie,
Thank you SO much for taking the time to reply and share your thoughts and persepctives. It means so much to me to hear your take on things.
At the beginning of our relationship I agonized over these behaviors alone not really even admitting to myself what I was seeing. I just got so tired of doing that in the last year or so with the renovation being the last straw which opened my eyes to this problem (my "favorite" anecdote from that time was when he came home from work at 5 pm having already been drinking with clients for a few hours to find me moving a heavy piece of furniture with the neighbors, he got freaked out by the chaos, and instead ran back out straight to the bar until 5 am with no reply to my questions of where he is/when is he coming back. The neighbors were horrified. But I digress...)
What your posts have illuminated for me is that what I haven't yet done is reached out for help and guidance from a community where people have gone through the same thing. I've shared my tales with my friends and family but none of them have an afflicted spouse so I think some of their advice while well-meaning has been off the mark. You've made me see that I need to find support from those who've been there.
Thanks for your advice and for pointing me to these bookmarked areas of the site, and I'm also going to look into Al-Anon and other groups. I feel like my strength is emerging to leave him, but when I get strong, he gets sad, and then I back off. Then I get really angry at myself for that. I get somewhat angry with him too for knocking me off course, but more at myself. Then my mind gets trippy with getting mad at myself for ascribing my lack of being able to stand up for myself to his sadness and melodramatic behavior, which is essentially the same thing he does with his reasons for drinking (pinning it on my behavior), and then it leads me to think how I"m no different than him so it isn't fair for me to leave because I have the same issues as him. Isn't that so twisted on some level?!?! (Have any of you struggled with that particular head game?)
I look forward to reading more of your wise perspectives throughout these chat rooms. THANK YOU!!
Thank you SO much for taking the time to reply and share your thoughts and persepctives. It means so much to me to hear your take on things.
At the beginning of our relationship I agonized over these behaviors alone not really even admitting to myself what I was seeing. I just got so tired of doing that in the last year or so with the renovation being the last straw which opened my eyes to this problem (my "favorite" anecdote from that time was when he came home from work at 5 pm having already been drinking with clients for a few hours to find me moving a heavy piece of furniture with the neighbors, he got freaked out by the chaos, and instead ran back out straight to the bar until 5 am with no reply to my questions of where he is/when is he coming back. The neighbors were horrified. But I digress...)
What your posts have illuminated for me is that what I haven't yet done is reached out for help and guidance from a community where people have gone through the same thing. I've shared my tales with my friends and family but none of them have an afflicted spouse so I think some of their advice while well-meaning has been off the mark. You've made me see that I need to find support from those who've been there.
Thanks for your advice and for pointing me to these bookmarked areas of the site, and I'm also going to look into Al-Anon and other groups. I feel like my strength is emerging to leave him, but when I get strong, he gets sad, and then I back off. Then I get really angry at myself for that. I get somewhat angry with him too for knocking me off course, but more at myself. Then my mind gets trippy with getting mad at myself for ascribing my lack of being able to stand up for myself to his sadness and melodramatic behavior, which is essentially the same thing he does with his reasons for drinking (pinning it on my behavior), and then it leads me to think how I"m no different than him so it isn't fair for me to leave because I have the same issues as him. Isn't that so twisted on some level?!?! (Have any of you struggled with that particular head game?)
I look forward to reading more of your wise perspectives throughout these chat rooms. THANK YOU!!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,393
Sounds like he's always had drinking as just a part of his life and you knew this going in yet something changed in you, so you want him to change. Now, while I agree with the drinking all day or all night or coming home at 6am after a night of drinking is unacceptable, what's wrong with his "entertaining as part of his job" where drinking might be involved? It sounds like you weren't good with ANY of it. Use do be, but now you aren't. Sounds like he used to use drinking as a source for entertainment with others or just chilling out for himself. But he's started using it as an escape (from the bad economy, from the pressures you're putting on him/the marriage). I think couples/marriage counseling is a good idea, but you should also take a look at yourself. Are there things that YOU are unhappy with in YOURSELF (binge eating?) and you're taking things out on him just a bit so that he needs to suffer and make changes because you do?
ETA: sorry if this comes off as harsh, and the damage may be done (or the "disease" has progressed now). I just wanted to give you a perspective on how it could have come off the rails as it has (the drinking).
ETA: sorry if this comes off as harsh, and the damage may be done (or the "disease" has progressed now). I just wanted to give you a perspective on how it could have come off the rails as it has (the drinking).
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 2,393
Originally Posted by SallyTaylor 
At the beginning of our relationship I agonized over these behaviors alone not really even admitting to myself what I was seeing. I just got so tired of doing that in the last year or so with the renovation being the last straw which opened my eyes to this problem (my "favorite" anecdote from that time was when he came home from work at 5 pm having already been drinking with clients for a few hours to find me moving a heavy piece of furniture with the neighbors, he got freaked out by the chaos, and instead ran back out straight to the bar until 5 am with no reply to my questions of where he is/when is he coming back. The neighbors were horrified. But I digress...)
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 453
Welcome, Sally! Sorry for what brought you here...but glad you found us.
I think we all have a right to grow and develop and sometimes that means changing what we accept from others in our lives. Isn't that what a lot of us here are doing or have done? Sally, you acknowledge that you always knew about the drinking, but we often still have our own thoughts of what life will actually be like when we are married...or when we have a child...or reach a point in our career...or whatever. At the point when we realize that what we thought life would be and what the reality of life is are different then we have to make decisions about what we will do about it. From what I read, that is where you are.
A woman at an AlAnon meeting repeated a stat she once heard...it generally takes the spouse of an A five years of active addiction to reach out for help. Sounds to me like you, Sally, are right in that time frame.
Good for you to reach out for help with your own issues. As LillAmy said, if someone's drinking is a problem for you/your relationship, then it is a problem. Learn about the disease, about setting boundaries, and detaching. Those tools will help you decide what you want to do with the relationship.
Originally Posted by Refiner
Ok, it sounds like you weren't ever truly accepting of it, but you kept that to yourself. But I still think you've blindsided him by wanting to change him after about 3-4 years of marriage and now he's drinking even more to escape.
A woman at an AlAnon meeting repeated a stat she once heard...it generally takes the spouse of an A five years of active addiction to reach out for help. Sounds to me like you, Sally, are right in that time frame.
Good for you to reach out for help with your own issues. As LillAmy said, if someone's drinking is a problem for you/your relationship, then it is a problem. Learn about the disease, about setting boundaries, and detaching. Those tools will help you decide what you want to do with the relationship.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 15
Sally,
I'm new here too. I clicked on your message to the board because I am really feeling like this today. While I'm not married to my boyfriend, we have been together almost four years and have a child together. I feel like I could have written some of the things you have. I don't have a lot of advice to give, because I'm feeling lost but I just wanted to at least let you know. I'm here.
Thanks
I'm new here too. I clicked on your message to the board because I am really feeling like this today. While I'm not married to my boyfriend, we have been together almost four years and have a child together. I feel like I could have written some of the things you have. I don't have a lot of advice to give, because I'm feeling lost but I just wanted to at least let you know. I'm here.
Thanks
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: The Pit of Despair
Posts: 148
While it may be true that some people just aren't meant to be together, and some other people aren't meant to be with anyone, i.e. they are better off alone, this does not in fact make it their partner's fault if they suck at a relationship because they are in love with the bottle. It takes two to tango, so to speak and boy do we tango when we are dancing the crazy dance of an alcoholic. Having said that, things we do sometime contributes to the wheel of chaos we are riding on, like REACTING to their ********. I am there in the same rollercoaster car with you guys, or was til I got off...or am attempting to get off, it seems the ride is still going. You get so immersed in hearing that their behavior is YOUR fault you forget you haven't done anything beyond the normal parameters of a relationship. Its brainwashing or something because you lose the ability to see that their behavior is not normal or acceptable and slowly, insidously it becomes your norm and therefore since you don't "object" then its your "fault" it happens...according to their crazy logic. Your husband sounds like my ex-mess, (I hate calling him ex still..sigh) blaming me, hating me, loving me, hating me, we're over (I still cannot stand to hear the phrase I'm done, or we're done...about anything) come back, etc. I am struggling in my learning of how NOT TO REACT, and therefore can more clearly learn what my own heart is saying in the matter since it is not colored by his damaged perceptions. I repeat DO. NOT. DO. THAT. TO. YOURSELF. PERIOD. Do NOT blame yourself for his drinking and behavior. Be responsible for your actions and reactions, and only that. Its a hell of a lot harder than you think.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Iowa
Posts: 3,050
Hi Sally. Thanks for sharing. I know how hard it is. Sounds like your husband is doing a lot of what we call "quacking". For more on that, check the link below. You're not on your own here, plus you sound like you could use a laugh.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-quackers.html
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-quackers.html
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 59
Thanks for the laughs on the Quacking thread! And thanks to all for the thought-provoking comments. It's been eye-opening, and I have a lot of thinking and work to do. Looking forward to reading more of the collective wisdom in this site! The solidarity of the shared experience is enormously helpful.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 59
PS - LillAmy, you really nailed how I've been feeling - i.e., feeling guilty about my feelings. I remember how we almost split 3x last year - each at his initiative - and he didn't seem moved at all by how upset I was about it. Yet as he continued to push to split instead of fighting him on it I've gotten to the point where I'm thinking ok, yes fine - we're over! And now he wants to fight for it. I find it really peculiar that he now thinks it is worth it and now I'm wishing he would initiate it again so I don't have to feel guilty about being the one to do so! The guilt is what is torturous. But I think you are on to something - one should not feel guilty for one's own feelings
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Mmmmmm
Posts: 3,178
Sally, Welcome!
Newer marriage, renovations, stress full job and economy. Were you assessing relationship for kids? I thought my H would grow up when we started a family. That was the wrong answer in my Alcohol Addiction round of Family Feud.
Newer marriage, renovations, stress full job and economy. Were you assessing relationship for kids? I thought my H would grow up when we started a family. That was the wrong answer in my Alcohol Addiction round of Family Feud.
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,281
Hi Sally, welcome to SR. 
Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease that physically effects the frontal lobe of the brain, which also regulates reasoning, depression, anxiety, apathy, etc. Drinking helps the alcoholic feel normal. Alcoholics often provoke fights to give themselves a reason to drink. Nothing about it makes sense, but there's often similar patterns -- even in dry drunks -- aka, not drinking, but not actively working a recovery program.
On this side of things, I never knew how badly it screwed up my own value system and my self esteem until I started working on my own recovery. Alanon and therapy are great places to start.
Alcoholism is a chronic, progressive disease that physically effects the frontal lobe of the brain, which also regulates reasoning, depression, anxiety, apathy, etc. Drinking helps the alcoholic feel normal. Alcoholics often provoke fights to give themselves a reason to drink. Nothing about it makes sense, but there's often similar patterns -- even in dry drunks -- aka, not drinking, but not actively working a recovery program.
On this side of things, I never knew how badly it screwed up my own value system and my self esteem until I started working on my own recovery. Alanon and therapy are great places to start.
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Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Right here, right now!
Posts: 3,424
Sally-
I can't address the alcohol part any better then it has already been stated.
I just wanted to say that Al-Anon helped me....not just about the problem drinking and how I was reacting to it, but because I started to learn what was mine and what was not I also found an improvement in my food behaviors (I have lived with an eating disorder a long time).
I had been doing therapy prior to realizing my hubby had challenges too.....because I was the one in therapy, the one with a documented "problem," I felt like all of the problems in my relationship were my own.
I was stuffing things down a long time.
Luckily my therapist has been in recovery herself from alcohol over 30 years. She helped me get to Al-Anon (thought it took along time).
This was a hard, painful process for me, but it was the thing I needed to learn how to figure out what was mine and what was not.
I can't address the alcohol part any better then it has already been stated.
I just wanted to say that Al-Anon helped me....not just about the problem drinking and how I was reacting to it, but because I started to learn what was mine and what was not I also found an improvement in my food behaviors (I have lived with an eating disorder a long time).
I had been doing therapy prior to realizing my hubby had challenges too.....because I was the one in therapy, the one with a documented "problem," I felt like all of the problems in my relationship were my own.
I was stuffing things down a long time.
Luckily my therapist has been in recovery herself from alcohol over 30 years. She helped me get to Al-Anon (thought it took along time).
This was a hard, painful process for me, but it was the thing I needed to learn how to figure out what was mine and what was not.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: PA
Posts: 2,728
So you're basically going to sacrifice yourself and your happiness to this big guy who can't deal with you moving a piece of furniture with the neighbors? OMG... WTF is happening?! My wife has people in the house doing my job because I was to busy drinking!!! I need a drink!!!
Really? And you think that some of this is your fault because he says, this relationship/You, it, that, they,... ?! C'mon. Don't buy it. It's so much easier for him to blame the bird sh!tting on his car than for him to take responsibility for parking under the wire in the first place!
Nothing good will come to you if you keep putting up with his alcoholism. I'm not big on telling a married person to divorce but I believe I could make an exception for you only because when I was reading this, living like that would suck. I almost want to say he sounds like a baby. King Baby. My life is so hard!!! *cries, sobs, runs away to drink all night long*
Gee... I wonder why his life sucks soooooooo bad? hmmmmmmm
We know why yours does. He just hasn't figured it out yet.
Really? And you think that some of this is your fault because he says, this relationship/You, it, that, they,... ?! C'mon. Don't buy it. It's so much easier for him to blame the bird sh!tting on his car than for him to take responsibility for parking under the wire in the first place!
Nothing good will come to you if you keep putting up with his alcoholism. I'm not big on telling a married person to divorce but I believe I could make an exception for you only because when I was reading this, living like that would suck. I almost want to say he sounds like a baby. King Baby. My life is so hard!!! *cries, sobs, runs away to drink all night long*
Gee... I wonder why his life sucks soooooooo bad? hmmmmmmm
We know why yours does. He just hasn't figured it out yet.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,163
Are the bars really opened to 6 am in New York?
Committed, Married men who love and respect their wife, DO NOT stay out until 6 am.
Personally, I find that highly unacceptable.
Only you can decide what an acceptable standard of living is for you and your situation.
Glad you are here with us, lots of factual information, education, and support right at your fingertips.
Peace.
Committed, Married men who love and respect their wife, DO NOT stay out until 6 am.
Personally, I find that highly unacceptable.
Only you can decide what an acceptable standard of living is for you and your situation.
Glad you are here with us, lots of factual information, education, and support right at your fingertips.
Peace.
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Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: The Pit of Despair
Posts: 148
One thing that repeats over and over in my head...that might be applied to your situation:
After I informed my dad that I had kicked out my alcoholic fiance, and all the gory details of how and why, he said to me that my ex simply was unhappy with himself...not me... and didn't want to put on his big boy pants and deal with life like an adult. That whole phrase "put on his big boy pants" is what I am thinking about your husband. He doesn't want to put on his either, does he?
After I informed my dad that I had kicked out my alcoholic fiance, and all the gory details of how and why, he said to me that my ex simply was unhappy with himself...not me... and didn't want to put on his big boy pants and deal with life like an adult. That whole phrase "put on his big boy pants" is what I am thinking about your husband. He doesn't want to put on his either, does he?
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