lillamy

and thank God for that. Because today, that's really the only thing any one of us ever has.

Faith forward, kids. Y'all enjoy each other and baby Bambam.

hopeful4

Thank you for sharing and congrats on your peace and on your little one....and to your wife! Great accomplishments!!!

HopefulinFLA

Poh's Friend,

Thank you so much for sharing your story. I love your perspective and practical view on all of this. You're home sounds like it is filled with so much love!

Some folks here seem very focused on when the relapse will happen, and I know for many A's it could very well happen. And it could for mine as well, however, I choose to look at my situation like this. Yes, my RAH could start drinking again and life might become unbearable, or, I could be married to a non alcoholic man who could become terminally ill or killed in an accident, in which case life could also become unbearable. Same misery, different circumstance. So, I choose to be happy with what I have today, because today is good, and tomorrow is unknown and I just won't waste time being unhappy if I don't have to be.

I wish you and your family all the best!

Ixi

90% of alcoholics relapse at least once within the first four years. That does not mean that only 10% achieve long-term sobriety. I'm not advocating burying one's head in the sand, but I also don't advocate defeatism.

PohsFriend

Ok I thought real hard on this and said 'ahhh... let it go' but really that would be unfair to a lot of folks who are trying to figure things out.

Yes, the statistics said two years ago that my wife and I were doomed and many said I should drop her like she was on fire and run like hell because she is an alcoholic and they never change. Those people owe her an apology - no, not the 'well OK so you haven't fallen apart or proven to be a trainwreck yet so good job' crap. If you thought it, think "Crap, I was dead wrong on that one - great job girl, sorry I doubted you" no buts, no sorry to say it but you will still fail. You were wrong and if you have a hard time acknowledging that then she's considerably healthier than you are and the crap about how an alcoholic can't change is bunk.

So factual correction on that one: ********. She's changed dramatically and has demonstrated a degree of character and courage that few people will ever hope to come close to, that's point one.

Second, I not only acknowledged that relapses are possible and statistically probable AND my wife had two while she was pregnant - you just can't really come up with a worse 'when you least expect it' than that and I know what others do not - I know what that cost her and was pretty brutal making the point right up until the instant when the defensiveness was gone and the shame and horror and terror on her face gave me a glimpse into the personal hell she was living every day as we held our breath to see if he showed any signs of problems from the two occasions she drank - once a few hours and probably 3 drinks. The lapse a few weeks later was 12 drinks or so spread over 4 days and the doc said he was perfect and probably got off with no more than a hangover. She hasn't been away from that kid for more than 5 hours since he was born and I don't care how good the second most devoted parent around here is but you don't come close nor do I.

She has fought and overcome a horrible disease that is in remission due to her tenacity and courage so anyone questioning whether she will make it shouldn't say they hate to say it because if they hated to say it they wouldn't make it a point to constantly say that alcoholics are likely to relapse.
Likely. Not destined.
Relapse, not bottom out or die or approach the rock bottom they've been two after doing the hard work and having the tools to cope better.
How many months since you engaged in your worst habit? Anyone got 16 months? well if you do then odds are you'll screw up tomorrow, just wait.

It's worth pointing this out. If you wake up with an alcoholic and went to bed at night knowing they were an alcoholic then frankly you have absolutely nothing to complain about, nothing, zero. I have nothing to complain about. I've cried in the hospital and prayed for my son and let everything fall apart as I was trying to catch her on the way down and ya know what? I chose to. Me, not her. Anyone who has spent years and years on the rollercoaster of life with an active alcoholic chose to do that each and every day and they are not a victim - kids? Ok, they have no options but we do. Leave, kick them out or accept it. No yeah but money or inconvenience or excuses. I didn't say it was easy I said it is simple. Pack a bag, move in with a friend or ebay some crap and save up. If they drink themselves to death you'll figure it out so why wait.

Here's why I am saying that and while I generally don't like to hurt anyone's feelings there are people out there living with an alcoholic who need to understand a harsh truth and that is that you may be making it worse.

There are two ways we can do that... hell there may be 100 but two big ones. Enabling is one way to kill'm and the other way is to pay them back. If I busted my ass to do everything right for a couple years and heard 'well sure but you did a lot wrong before and you will fail again and you ruined my life and wah wah wah me me me then please, if you care for them at all pack your stuff and get the hell away from them so they have a fighting chance because I'm NOT an alcoholic and would drink myself to death if I had to listen to that.

Here is the deal and the deal sucks: Whatever they did on the way to rock bottom they can't fix. More than likely they won't try. When they do sober up they aren't going to hit their knees and beg your forgiveness and tell you it's all their fault (oddly, that's what you get BEFORE they quit).

When they are in that first 6 months or a year of recovery they suck sometimes. They are likely to blame you and resent YOU for their mistakes and while you should not put up with that you may as well forget about restitution. They are exhausted, depressed and from listening to a hundred of them describe it that first year SUCKS for them. They still have whatever problems the alcohol used to numb PLUS the shame and humiliation for all they did and frankly they are doing all they can to get to the next day without a drink and they probably won't be kissing boo-boos, it just does not happen and worse, they may be worse sober than they were drunk.

So here is the test. We all agree you can't make someone stay sober but what about the other direction? If they drink it is on them not you but you don't need a degree in counseling to know that anyone or anything that increases the shame and humiliation and increases the anxiety they deal with is not helping and it is hurting. If you love them then you drop your list of grievances, forgive them and you damned well be supportive and encouraging or else get the hell away from them and give them a chance.

Here is another hate to say it but gee it's truism.... Whatever they did when they were drunk and you and I were not? It isn't clear that they chose to do what they did but we don't have a bottle to hide in or any copouts - we chose it. If it was a stupid choice it was OUR stupid choice. If they took advantage and used us then hellllllooooooo that's what addicts do when they are using, They even call it using for crying out loud.

There is something satisfying about being the good one, the responsible one, the one sacrificed all for the bad one who was such a burden and we are such good people - saints perhaps.

What a bunch of crap. We signed up for it and in many cases it had to do with our own mental issues. I remember when my counselor asked me if I saw a pattern in my romantic choices and I looked at him like we needed to switch chairs and said "Jesus dude, you went to school for what... 8 years for this crap and you haven't figured out that since I couldn't fix mommy I've been trying to fix people like mommy for twenty years? what the hell did they teach you?". We both laughed.

So that's my harsh reality. Whether we are part of the solution or part of the problem once they sober up is entirely up to us. Whether we choose to be with a drunk or not is entirely up to us. Choices come with consequences though so if you choose it today and predictably bad things happen today then you still chose it and can choose not to choose it any longer.

...but if you choose it then you own it. If you can't let go of the anger or forgive and move forward then get out of the way because it ain't about us it's about them. Is that fair? We can break the bad news about life and fair later but for now let's start with free will. We can't complain about that which we permit even if it makes us feel like the good guy.

When it comes to character and courage there is no question that the drunk I live with isn't in my league. She's got considerably more and she spends her life focused on a single goal - to heal and improve herself so that she can help others and be a great wife and mom. I'm not close to that degree of goodness but bless her heart, she chose to accept, forgive and believe in me too so she owns that choice and will have to persevere as well.

The disappointment I may invite by believing she will make it is nothing compared to the disappointment someone is inviting if they think that the debts an addict rang up while they were using are going to be paid. If they get well and fight to stay well and limit any relapses to a slip rather than a catastrophe then you are in the lucky minority.

OK, sorry but I saved that up for two years gritting my teeth when heard over and over and over that we would never get here - well we did, so do others and I know dozens of incredible people with 5, 10, 30 years of sobriety and I know people who have TWO ten year chips because yes, a relapse can happen any time and it can go either way. One of those is back to recovery.

I'm thrilled that I chose not to run and chose not to live with an active alcoholic either but every bad day was one that I understood the risks of and the rewards were worth it. Your mileage may vary but your responsibility for your actions won't - you own it - they get a pass and if that offends your sense of fairness then you've got the wrong priorities. This is Friends and Family of Alcoholics remember? Not judges of or superiors of and not victims of. I can't tell anyone that their alcoholic will get well like mine has worked so hard to do for two years but don't you dare let anyone tell you they won't. One size fits one and having a degree in statistics I promise you this - if 90% fail then you don't have time to waste worrying, get off your butt and figure out what the other 10% are doing and do THAT. I promise you they are focused and determined and they aren't naive and they damned sure don't expect to fail, there's no sure path to the 10% but expecting to fail reserves a slot in the 90% group with 100% certainty.

Here endeth rant. I can't defend my wife from alcohol but I can damned well stand up for her otherwise.

HopefulmomtoD

I'm so happy she's doing well and working so hard at her sobriety. My DS now has 11 months sober. I wish he was working at his sobriety hard like your wife, but I can't control it. However, I love to hear stories like Poh's. I'm trying not to live my life waiting for the relapse to happen and this is a great reminder.

Florence

Their love story is nice, but it also reads like a codependent's fantasy. Believe me, I had it. I'm not saying this is the case for them personally -- I believe they love each other very much based on what PF shares with us -- but it is exactly the fantasy that many of us have when we first arrive, excusing abuse, minimizing the consequences that staying in the relationship had and has on us. Dangling carrots of early recovery in front of a bunch of codependents who are trying to navigate the fog of physical and emotional abuse is weird when most of us come here to figure out how to get off the roller coaster. Advocating clinging to the roller coaster because of positive what-ifs could be a death sentence for a lot of us -- if not literally, than figuratively. If you think I'm being hyperbolic, look at the new threads being posted every day.

The key to PohsFriend's story is that his wife was ready to quit -- for whatever reason -- and so she is doing that now. I think that's awesome. Most of us friends and family -- c'mon guys, MOST of us, the vast majority of us -- will not be so lucky. This magical thinking is our disease.

If it's inappropriate or mean-spirited to say so, I apologize, and I will back off.

LaTeeDa

PF, please don't take this thread personally. I don't believe anyone is disparaging your wife. I do believe that some may be attempting to temper your post with some *overall* reality. Most of us will never be fortunate enough to see our alcoholic loved one grab onto recovery with both hands and work it as though their life depended on it. Yet, 100% of us desire that outcome. Because of our own mental issues and tendency toward wishful thinking, many of us often stay too long and suffer too much waiting for the outcome you have been fortunate enough to receive. We believe, often mistakenly, that if we only stay long enough, and try hard enough, the happily ever after part of the story will come.

You speak of accepting reality and letting go of what may happen. This is true for all of us that love an alcoholic. Unfortunately, making the decision not to live with an active alcoholic most often means leaving them. So while you are saying the same thing many of us have already learned, those who have not learned those things yet may tend to skip right past the acceptance and letting go part and latch right on to the "he stuck by her and she got sober part," wrongly assuming a cause and effect relationship.

You and your wife are both wonderful examples to codependents and alcoholics. However, your outcomes are most definitely the exception and not the rule. Congratulations to you both!

L

PohsFriend

Inappropriate or mean-spirited... That was not my point.

My point is much more simple and that is that one size fits one. I don't think I saved my wife - she is saving herself. I don't think 2 years is all that 'early' in recovery but then I don't think it has to do so much with time as it has to do with mindset. An alcoholic who goes to aa to reassure you they are 'trying' is immature in recovery. One who says they have it figured out and are safe now is immature. One who goes to bars and hangs out with their old drinking buddies but 'is strong enough to do that' is immature.

One who goes to AA or works another program because they feel they need it, who consciously avoids situations and people who would make it easy to revert, who are of the belief that they need to be careful NEVER to get too sure that they have it beat... those folks are doing well.

I am not saying that the person who comes here in the same state of panic/grief/fear that I was in two years ago should expect the same success or same trials I've been through. I am saying it is equally irresponsible to tell them they CAN'T expect it.

It is absolutely fair to tell someone who just arrived here that-

• The odds of a happy ending are not great
• Unless/until someone decides thay want to quit there is not much you can do
• Attempts to help may prevent or at least delay recovery. Anything you do to shield an active addict from the consequences of their drinking might be interfering with that key event that would have made them hit bottom and start looking for help
• Your own sanity and emotional health is at risk and you need to learn to set boundaries that you are comfortable with
• Go to an open AA meeting and an Al-anon meeting, go to several. Talk to people who were where you or your loved on is several years ago and listen to what they have to say
• Protect yourself and your kids and remember that you make a choice but children do not, your first obligation is to protect their interests without considering your own or your significant other's.

BUT, and there is a BUT. Ignore anyone who speaks in absolute terms. Statistics are scary. 90% may fail. 99% may fail. 100% do not fail.

Those fortunate enough to go on to a happier future are not assured that it will remain happy but that's true of all couples.

I understood the statistical probability. I understand that the statistical probability of a major and/or permanent relapse are not encouraging based solely on the statistics.

I don't encourage magical thinking nor do I engage in it. It's pretty condescending to assume that to be the case.

I'm a skeptic. I'm skeptical of AA's teachings and know that the success rate in AA is no better than the success rate for alcoholics overall. Some quit on their own and find a solution that works for them. I'm skeptical of THOSE statistics because I think those who land at AA are more likely to have had a traumatic event or series of events that led them there so it may be similar numbers as far as outcomes but starting from a pool with worse prospects which would suggest AA has merit.

Magical/optimistic/pessimistic... I advocate pragmatic. If you are pragmatic about it then you take in the data and start asking yourself some honest questions: Do I want to take this on? I wasn't sure. I had BIG doubts about that and my wife's pregnancy solidified my resolve to give it my best shot because I knew that I needed that. I could not quit without being able to say I had given it my best effort.
Best effort... so that was understanding what the 10% had in common and starting there. The couples I talked to had lots in common. The alcoholic had chosen to get well and did not begin to get well until then. More than half of those couples had gone through a period where the non-alcoholic had made the decision that the relationship or the drinking had to end. Almost all had been through a relapse and half had been through a 'major' relapse which I define as a return to active alcoholism and starting all over again after an extended period of drinking.

....head in the sand? Hardly.

Being honest and pragmatic and realistic means acknowledging that some will have better, worse or similar outcomes than you or I have for reasons that have to do with hundreds of factors, some predictable others less so and some we'll never be aware of.

The message I wanted to convey to those who have or are losing their hope and those who might advise them to give it up is that nothing is hopeless but hope alone will not change things. Each of us has choices and each of us has responsibilities. Learn, think, talk, educate yourself and don't let anyone else's experience serve as anything more than one data point out of the hundreds you owe it to yourself to collect. If your conclusion is that there is no hope then run fast, far and now. If you don't know then that's OK, you don't have to.

Most of all keep in mind that you control you. You decide what you are willing to accept and not willing to accept, nobody else can do that and while it is easy to blame the alcoholic for our problems that is really not an option for us. They may be responsible for things that have happened before now but we are responsible for what we do next and that includes being responsible for sticking with them if we choose that. Own that and the future gets easier. There is a huge difference between saying that you are stuck in a nightmare and saying that you are choosing to remain in a bad situation for the moment until the situation changes or you decide to change your situation but don't allow yourself to be a victim. If you feel like a victim today it may be someone else's doing, if you feel that way tomorrow then you may be right but you can't hold anyone but you responsible for that decision just as the alcoholic can't blame anyone but themselves for their drinking.

...and I stand by my assertion that you are under no obligation to 'stick it out' but if you do then don't expect the 'debt' you perceive will be paid or that they'll 'make it up to you' or that anyone 'owes you'. If the alcoholic who sent you googling whatever search string landed you here is sober today then that is all you should hope for. If that isn't good enough then ask yourself who you are helping and who you are hurting.

My wife was sober yesterday and awoke sober today. Things are quiet, the trend is upward and I am glad I did not quit when logic suggested I should. My happiness doesn't presuppose that she will be sober two years from now, my happiness is based on knowing that if she is not then the good was worth the bad we went through and whatever comes later. If I knew with certainty that she would relapse it would not change my decision to be happy until then and deal with the relapse once it happens and I know what I am dealing with because I know I weighed the risks and rewards and made a choice not to allow Alcohol or someone else's alcoholism to make my life unmanageable again. That I can control because I can choose not to let it dictate how I live my life. You can do the same.

Chantal88

Thank you for the post PF

By holding onto hope and loving your wife you have provided encouragement to many people.

It reminds me of the saying: It is better to light one candle, than to curse the darkness.

There is always hope!

Katchie

wow.. gives me hope but I know his recovery is up to him. I pray for my AH

m1k3

I think hope is a great thing, my hope that I could get better was one of the things that kept me going in the early dark days of my recovery. As for hope for the A and their recovery well that can be a two edged sword, hope clouds observation.

Your friend,

Chantal88

Hope is never a bad thing.

In the Bible it says "Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love." 1 Corinthians 13:13

m1k3

Hope can be a bad thing when it keeps you from seeing things as they really are. When hope keeps dragging you down into darker and darker places, when hope keeps you hanging onto things like this will be the last time, and I know they have learned their lesson now, and i know they love me enough to stop drinking.

I know because I expended 20 years of hope before I saw the reality of my situation.

I know hope doesn't last forever. It died for me about 4 years ago. I have no hope for my wife's recovery. It doesn't mean she won't or can't but I know whatever she does is on her.

I have let go of that and turned it over to my HP.

Your friend,

Hopeworks

It's interesting that the discussion turned to hope... something that I actually pinned everything on a few years ago. My name is Hopeworks and I absolutely believed that Hope and Faith and Love simply could not fail in my relationship with my XA! ALL my hope was in my "sticking" by him and the miracle would happen... I just "knew" it would.

But it didn't. No matter how hard I prayed, how hard I worked, how diligently I ran interference he always relapsed. Hoping just didn't work at all... in fact, I now believe that I had been crippling him like you cripple a butterfly by breaking it out of its cocoon.

It took two years of his flailing around getting arresting, getting himself homeless and other consequences of his alcoholism and poor choices but he finally broke up with alcohol without an outside force such as my wrath, the judges gavel and the jail sentence or the doctor telling him he would die if he didn't stop being the catalyst. Just like Forrest Gump decided to stop running he decided to stop drinking forever.

Now it means something to him...he fought to get where he is now. Gainfully self employed, a nice home and a future and he wants to keep it so he does whatever it takes. It's real recovery and he owns it... he has worked very hard for it over 2500 miles from all of us who loved him and have been praying for him.

Did my hopes have anything to do with it? Not really. There were seeds of recovery planted in the many, many rehabs he has been in. He knows the AA program so well he could be a paid speaker and that is helpful for him now that it all has real value and importance to him.

Now he wants it more than he wants his next breath. He won't do anything to jeopardize his precious sobriety... and that is what he and Poh's wife have in common... they both want it more than life itself and as long as that is their mindset and they keep doing whatever it takes every single moment and one day at a time then they will not drink.

But if they get complacent, if they rest on their laurels, if they get careless... one or both them may drink and the entire nightmare and horror of it all could start all over again.

My best wishes to POH who chose to give his marriage and his brand new baby a chance at a life with both mom and dad in the household... a very, very good thing in a world where we have broken families more often than not. May that precious baby never know the horror of being raised in an active alcoholic household and I am sure POH will insure that never happens.

In my case I am long over raising kids as is my XA and sober or not I choose not to enmesh myself back into his life in a relationship other than as friends... it is just too risky for me. I am happy, I am blessed and I am at peace and I am ecstatic that my XA is now sober!

But none of us are God... we do not have the power to make them drink nor stop... neither POH or I! And that my friends is the hope I have for each one of you.... let go and let God! Getting out of the way is sometimes the solution...at least it was for the A I loved...it actually saved his life! Some feel that they are supposed to stay as POH has shared.

So the magic bullet... pray and find your own way out as God shows you. It is your HP that will help you determine what YOUR path is. My path was one thing, POH's was another and your path... well, that is for you find out!

Chantal88

Well said PF. I can testify to the fact that being pragmatic works. My loved one was on the brink of death. Everyone around him thought he was going to die. But today he's been sober for two years and he's working at a law firm and getting ready for law school.

If I had given up on him I wouldn't be able to share the moments I have with him - moments I wouldn't trade anything for. I don't say 'hold on to hope' half-heartedly. I say it because I know it to be true. I've exercised it in my own life and it has come through for me.

Should everybody hold onto hope for their loved one? I can't answer that. Every situation is different. From experience I know that if it comes from the heart, it's the truth. If it comes from a sense of guilt or obligation, but there's no love in it, then I let it go.