What do you think of Chapter 8 in the Big Book "To Wives"
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What do you think of Chapter 8 in the Big Book "To Wives"
What do you think of Chapter 8 in the Big Book "To Wives"
Here is a link to it:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt8.pdf
A little bit of background. Feel free to read my past posts.
I informed AH that I would not live any longer with him drinking. He quit drinking and started attending AA. With 13 days of sobriety he filed for divorce last Wednesday "because he couldn't promise me he would never drink", then 2 days later told me he wants to make our marriage work and never wants to drink again. I'm not positive why he had a change of heart. Possibilities include: Wanted to let me know he was serious (about drinking). Wanted to file quickly to protect himself from alimony. I'm guessing when he discovered that neither of these tactics would work for him, the alternative was to say he wants our marriage to work. His actions since then have done nothing to convince me he means what he says. In fact, he almost appears to sabotage himself.
On Sunday I hosted a Blessingway for my daughter who is 9 months pregnant. Following the Blessingway we planned a Taco/Pool party for partners and children of the women who attended the Blessingway. He had been invited before everything blew up last Wednesday. On Saturday, I told him that he could come to the party (It would save me from the questions of him being abscent from some of my family that are not aware of our situation). I asked that he not speak to anyone about AA or him not drinking. He said that wouldn't be a problem. I found out that he indeed spoke to my sister and niece. Prefaced his conversation with her by saying "I'm not supposed to be talking about this but......" There were other scenarios that presented themselves that day where he made it clear that as usual, it's only about him.
I found out about the conversations he had and called him out on it. He had excuses. I asked him what part of "Don't talk to anybody" do you not understand. I asked if he understood why I can't believe anything he says.
Today he asks me to read Chapter 8. I read it.
Sounds like a fairytale to me.
Excerpt from Page 118:
Your husband knows he owes you more than sobriety. He wants to make good. Yet you must not expect too much. His ways of thinking and doing are the habits of years. Patience, tolerance, understanding and love are the watchwords. Show him these things in yourself and they will be reflected back to you from him. Live and let live is the rule.
This next paragraph doesn't apply to me "yet" but I know it does to many of you.
Excerpt from Page 120:
Perhaps your husband will make a fair start on the new basis, but just as things are going beautifully he dismays you by coming home drunk. If you are satisfied he really wants to get over drinking, you need not be alarmed. Though it is infinitely better that he have no relapse at all, as has been true with many of our men, it is by no means a bath thing in some cases. Your husband will see at once that he must redouble his spiritual activities if he expects to survive. You need not remind him of his spiritual deficiency - he will know of it. Cheer him up and ask him how you can be still more helpful.
Seriously??
Here is a link to it:
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt8.pdf
A little bit of background. Feel free to read my past posts.
I informed AH that I would not live any longer with him drinking. He quit drinking and started attending AA. With 13 days of sobriety he filed for divorce last Wednesday "because he couldn't promise me he would never drink", then 2 days later told me he wants to make our marriage work and never wants to drink again. I'm not positive why he had a change of heart. Possibilities include: Wanted to let me know he was serious (about drinking). Wanted to file quickly to protect himself from alimony. I'm guessing when he discovered that neither of these tactics would work for him, the alternative was to say he wants our marriage to work. His actions since then have done nothing to convince me he means what he says. In fact, he almost appears to sabotage himself.
On Sunday I hosted a Blessingway for my daughter who is 9 months pregnant. Following the Blessingway we planned a Taco/Pool party for partners and children of the women who attended the Blessingway. He had been invited before everything blew up last Wednesday. On Saturday, I told him that he could come to the party (It would save me from the questions of him being abscent from some of my family that are not aware of our situation). I asked that he not speak to anyone about AA or him not drinking. He said that wouldn't be a problem. I found out that he indeed spoke to my sister and niece. Prefaced his conversation with her by saying "I'm not supposed to be talking about this but......" There were other scenarios that presented themselves that day where he made it clear that as usual, it's only about him.
I found out about the conversations he had and called him out on it. He had excuses. I asked him what part of "Don't talk to anybody" do you not understand. I asked if he understood why I can't believe anything he says.
Today he asks me to read Chapter 8. I read it.
Sounds like a fairytale to me.
Excerpt from Page 118:
Your husband knows he owes you more than sobriety. He wants to make good. Yet you must not expect too much. His ways of thinking and doing are the habits of years. Patience, tolerance, understanding and love are the watchwords. Show him these things in yourself and they will be reflected back to you from him. Live and let live is the rule.
This next paragraph doesn't apply to me "yet" but I know it does to many of you.
Excerpt from Page 120:
Perhaps your husband will make a fair start on the new basis, but just as things are going beautifully he dismays you by coming home drunk. If you are satisfied he really wants to get over drinking, you need not be alarmed. Though it is infinitely better that he have no relapse at all, as has been true with many of our men, it is by no means a bath thing in some cases. Your husband will see at once that he must redouble his spiritual activities if he expects to survive. You need not remind him of his spiritual deficiency - he will know of it. Cheer him up and ask him how you can be still more helpful.
Seriously??
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Written in the early 1900's, in a part of the USA that was about a full generation behind the times to the rest of the world as far as considering women to be human beings. When did women finally get the right to vote?
I think a cultural anthropologist might find something of interest in that chapter... maybe.
The world has made some progress in the last 80 years, a good place to find something a little more up to date would be the al-anon website.
Mike
I think a cultural anthropologist might find something of interest in that chapter... maybe.
The world has made some progress in the last 80 years, a good place to find something a little more up to date would be the al-anon website.
Mike
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I do realize that this book was written in 1939!
Obviously, my AH's perception is distorted and now he reads this book and it seems to support an unrealistic view (in this chapter IMO). With that being said I do believe he is grasping at straws to draw me in.
Obviously, my AH's perception is distorted and now he reads this book and it seems to support an unrealistic view (in this chapter IMO). With that being said I do believe he is grasping at straws to draw me in.
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If it was not that chapter it would be something else. There's only millions and millions of books on the internet, if somebody wants to find garbage.. it won't be that hard.
What are _you_ doing to not get drawn in? How are you protecting yourself from his "quacking"?
Mike
What are _you_ doing to not get drawn in? How are you protecting yourself from his "quacking"?
Mike
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You must realize that because your AH has only a few weeks sobriety, that most of this does not apply to your situation. The husbands described in that book had already been sober for a while and worked the steps.
Oh yeah, and 1939 too.
Also a question: have you read the entire big book or just chapter 8? What about your AH, what has he read of the big book?
Oh yeah, and 1939 too.
Also a question: have you read the entire big book or just chapter 8? What about your AH, what has he read of the big book?
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Why is it your place to decide who he tells about his recovery journey? It is an extremely personal process. Just like you cannot control his drinking, you cannot control his recovery and efforts to do so have a tendency to backfire.
IMO if he is telling family and friends it is a good sign. It shows a personal desire to layer additional accountability into the process and a willingness to move forward. Alcoholics who have no intention of staying sober do not announce their recovery efforts to others.
With respect to the Big Book, yes, much of it is antiquated. So is the Bible. That does not mean that the overarching principles should be dismissed simply because a few phrases no longer apply. Instead of nitpicking specific sentences, think in terms of the overall message of the chapter. After all, your husband is reading the Big Book which is a huge step in and of itself.
IMO if he is telling family and friends it is a good sign. It shows a personal desire to layer additional accountability into the process and a willingness to move forward. Alcoholics who have no intention of staying sober do not announce their recovery efforts to others.
With respect to the Big Book, yes, much of it is antiquated. So is the Bible. That does not mean that the overarching principles should be dismissed simply because a few phrases no longer apply. Instead of nitpicking specific sentences, think in terms of the overall message of the chapter. After all, your husband is reading the Big Book which is a huge step in and of itself.
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I have read bits and pieces of the Big Book but I have only read chapter 8 in its entirety. He read the book about 3 years ago and decided at that time that none of it applied to him.
Mike, I attend Alanon, work the steps and frequent SR daily (sometimes hourly). I've been working at this for 3 years now and I finally see the reality of this hopeless situation. He's a great salesman and I bought it every time he tried to sell it, for the past 10 years. I just don't have the "patience, tolerance, understanding and love" to do it any longer. I have an appointment in the morning with my attorney. I'm ok in regards to leaving our relationship. It is my home that I am sad to be losing. Wow...writing can really be a self discovery! Not the material things that make a house but the love I've invested in our home. Oh well, time to move forward.
Mike, I attend Alanon, work the steps and frequent SR daily (sometimes hourly). I've been working at this for 3 years now and I finally see the reality of this hopeless situation. He's a great salesman and I bought it every time he tried to sell it, for the past 10 years. I just don't have the "patience, tolerance, understanding and love" to do it any longer. I have an appointment in the morning with my attorney. I'm ok in regards to leaving our relationship. It is my home that I am sad to be losing. Wow...writing can really be a self discovery! Not the material things that make a house but the love I've invested in our home. Oh well, time to move forward.
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CharlieNoogan, I do not tell him who he can tell about his recovery journey. I asked him to refrain from his selfish behavior and let this day be about my daughter and her celebration. And it was something he couldn't do.
You have assumed that you know what he said to friends and family and your comments are based on that false assumption.
I am not nitpicking specific sentences. He asked me to read this and I was surprised at what I read. I was asking for opinions on what you thought about Chapter 8 - not what you think about me.
You have assumed that you know what he said to friends and family and your comments are based on that false assumption.
I am not nitpicking specific sentences. He asked me to read this and I was surprised at what I read. I was asking for opinions on what you thought about Chapter 8 - not what you think about me.
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The chapter to wives, used to sound archaic to me when i was in my twenties.
Many years later, married with children, there are certainly more things in it that I can relate to than not.
Certainly it is aimed at a conventional, dare I say fairly conservative or traditional nuclear American style family.
While that doesn't address everyone, there are still some of us left out there.
Take what works, forget the rest.
Many years later, married with children, there are certainly more things in it that I can relate to than not.
Certainly it is aimed at a conventional, dare I say fairly conservative or traditional nuclear American style family.
While that doesn't address everyone, there are still some of us left out there.
Take what works, forget the rest.
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First all due respect to all of the Big Book EXCEPT Chapter 8.
I find the chapter insulting. I feel it exudes the attitude that woman is merely an extension of a man and only valued in society when she is married with children....yes I realize it doesn't explicitly say that but the attitude is there for me (and my feeling is valid) and it's yucky. It reminds me of a woman with her hair in a pink bow, make up done slaving over a hot stove waiting her her "man" her LIFE to arrive home - "oh woe is me I've been without him 8 hours, how oh how did I survive?". A woman is not merely an extension of her husband nor is her life dependent on "standing by her man" - if that is still the attitude today wow we have not come a long way at all. A woman does not need to be married to be successful nor does being married or not married define her. Nor do we need to have kids to have meaning in our lives. If the "traditional nuclear family" means any of that I personally want no part of it - I am sick of being judged by what man I can get, how well I stand by him or how many kids a do or don't have. I am so much more than that...and I really thought that type of thing ended in the 1950s.
I really hate how in those excerpts the "wives" (I even hate the title "to the wives" - aren't we PARTNERS - and equal ones?) are all about the husband - what he is doing if he is drinking - oh woe is me, my husband defines me.
Ok rant over! Sorry...passionate topic.....honestly I was happy when my XAH during one of his many recovery attempts told me he thought that Chapter was degrading to women.
So what do I think of Chapter 8 - as the phrase goes "take what you want and leave the rest"...in this case I left the entire thing.
I find the chapter insulting. I feel it exudes the attitude that woman is merely an extension of a man and only valued in society when she is married with children....yes I realize it doesn't explicitly say that but the attitude is there for me (and my feeling is valid) and it's yucky. It reminds me of a woman with her hair in a pink bow, make up done slaving over a hot stove waiting her her "man" her LIFE to arrive home - "oh woe is me I've been without him 8 hours, how oh how did I survive?". A woman is not merely an extension of her husband nor is her life dependent on "standing by her man" - if that is still the attitude today wow we have not come a long way at all. A woman does not need to be married to be successful nor does being married or not married define her. Nor do we need to have kids to have meaning in our lives. If the "traditional nuclear family" means any of that I personally want no part of it - I am sick of being judged by what man I can get, how well I stand by him or how many kids a do or don't have. I am so much more than that...and I really thought that type of thing ended in the 1950s.
I really hate how in those excerpts the "wives" (I even hate the title "to the wives" - aren't we PARTNERS - and equal ones?) are all about the husband - what he is doing if he is drinking - oh woe is me, my husband defines me.
Ok rant over! Sorry...passionate topic.....honestly I was happy when my XAH during one of his many recovery attempts told me he thought that Chapter was degrading to women.
So what do I think of Chapter 8 - as the phrase goes "take what you want and leave the rest"...in this case I left the entire thing.
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Why are you letting him pull you into this stuff?? He is still manipulating, trying to find ways to keep you engaged in his stuff. He wanted a divorce, okay. You're now deciding that's what you're doing and you have an appointment with your attorney. He's going to continue to find ways to get you to pick up the other end of his rope if you let him.
I agree he should have respected that the gathering was about your daughter, not about him. But that's what A's do, it's always about them. I would offer that you had unrealistic expectations for him at that party. You may have been better off to just let him know it was best he didn't attend, let him figure out what to tell others. That's part of his consequences.
I agree he should have respected that the gathering was about your daughter, not about him. But that's what A's do, it's always about them. I would offer that you had unrealistic expectations for him at that party. You may have been better off to just let him know it was best he didn't attend, let him figure out what to tell others. That's part of his consequences.
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Originally Posted by OnlyOneProblem 
CharlieNoogan, I do not tell him who he can tell about his recovery journey. I asked him to refrain from his selfish behavior and let this day be about my daughter and her celebration. And it was something he couldn't do.
You have assumed that you know what he said to friends and family and your comments are based on that false assumption.
I am not nitpicking specific sentences. He asked me to read this and I was surprised at what I read. I was asking for opinions on what you thought about Chapter 8 - not what you think about me.
You have assumed that you know what he said to friends and family and your comments are based on that false assumption.
I am not nitpicking specific sentences. He asked me to read this and I was surprised at what I read. I was asking for opinions on what you thought about Chapter 8 - not what you think about me.
If your husband stole the spotlight and interrupted the proceedings to make an announcement to all attendees about his recovery, then I agree that would be selfish. If he made comments in a side conversation, which is what I understood from the original post, then I guess we agree to disagree.
Best of luck.
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I'm not going to get into the 'he said/she said' 'he did/she did' etc., etc., etc. However......the phrase 'take what you want and leave the rest' originally had nothing to do with what was in the book; it referred to what one 'heard' in an AA meeting.
(o:
NoelleR
(o:
NoelleR
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As a loved one of someone struggling with alcohol, I found the Big Book very helpful to get a glimpse of the struggle my loved one experienced. I know it is often referred to as the chapter to read if you are not the alcoholic but I found it challenging, and frankly confusing.
Granted it could have been where I was at the time, but it was such a strong juxtaposition to how I felt about the rest of the book that it is hard for me to think I would feel differently if I read it again.
I have found Al-Anon reading, and the rest of the Big Book fantastic and very helpful.
Granted it could have been where I was at the time, but it was such a strong juxtaposition to how I felt about the rest of the book that it is hard for me to think I would feel differently if I read it again.
I have found Al-Anon reading, and the rest of the Big Book fantastic and very helpful.
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Okay peeps, kindly step back from the keyboard. Post only to the original question, not to each other. If you do not have direct experience on the question go find some other thread where you do. Take a walk around the block, breathe some air, come back tomorrow and find a different thread to reply on.
Mike
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Originally Posted by DesertEyes
If it was not that chapter it would be something else. There's only millions and millions of books on the internet, if somebody wants to find garbage.. it won't be that hard.
However, I happened to like the chapter, even though it wasn't very applicable to my situation. But I liked that it did, in fact, hold the alcoholic responsible for the mess created within the family, while at the same time holding the [wife, in this case] responsible for not allowing the mess to continue either.
I know I was just as bossy and controlling about things as my XAH was. It took two to wreck that marriage; I have some blame as well.
That said - why did he want you to read this chapter? Is it related to this statement:
I just don't have the "patience, tolerance, understanding and love" to do it any longer
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OK, for being insulted, how would you like to be a "guy" i.e, ME, to whom To Wives is directed?
THEY Thinkest thy noble servant, Hammer, a bitch?
Here is the real deal from what I follow. "To Wives" is sort of a Recovering A's Pipe Dream how to mansplain (yeah, look that one up -- thanks, Lulu) this stuff to the Lil' Lady.
Anyway.
Get the Good in the Big Book, first.
GREAT STUFF: Chapter 5, How it Works.
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf
ESPECIALLY the part about Rigorous Honesty.
GREAT STUFF: The Family Afterward
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt9.pdf
-----------------
As for why your A is bouncing round like a ping-pong ball. Yeah it is annoying. Real fing annoying.
When *they* come off their mood altering addiction -- same for Drugs, Alcohol, Cutting, Anorexia (our most recent Rehab for Mrs. Hammer), their little damaged addict and formally sedated brains and emotional centers really ARE bouncing around like a ping-pong ball.
Their screws are truly loose for months, and it can take a year to even really get their crap together.
In the meanwhile -- Alanon for you (and me), sister.
===========
All who would care, can join in with me and Daughter's (11 y.o. Alateen) evening text prayer . . . (because Mrs. Hammer's little damaged addict and formally sedated brain and emotional center has been trying to now cope with a lying addiction) . . .
Dear God,
Please grant and give us, our family, and our home rigorous honesty.
And make happy-land be happy.
IJN, Amen.
THEY Thinkest thy noble servant, Hammer, a bitch?
Here is the real deal from what I follow. "To Wives" is sort of a Recovering A's Pipe Dream how to mansplain (yeah, look that one up -- thanks, Lulu) this stuff to the Lil' Lady.
Anyway.
Get the Good in the Big Book, first.
GREAT STUFF: Chapter 5, How it Works.
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt5.pdf
ESPECIALLY the part about Rigorous Honesty.
GREAT STUFF: The Family Afterward
http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt9.pdf
-----------------
As for why your A is bouncing round like a ping-pong ball. Yeah it is annoying. Real fing annoying.
When *they* come off their mood altering addiction -- same for Drugs, Alcohol, Cutting, Anorexia (our most recent Rehab for Mrs. Hammer), their little damaged addict and formally sedated brains and emotional centers really ARE bouncing around like a ping-pong ball.
Their screws are truly loose for months, and it can take a year to even really get their crap together.
In the meanwhile -- Alanon for you (and me), sister.
===========
All who would care, can join in with me and Daughter's (11 y.o. Alateen) evening text prayer . . . (because Mrs. Hammer's little damaged addict and formally sedated brain and emotional center has been trying to now cope with a lying addiction) . . .
Dear God,
Please grant and give us, our family, and our home rigorous honesty.
And make happy-land be happy.
IJN, Amen.
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Thanks Hammer for your sense of humor. Much needed at this point!
Tuff Girl, Why did he want me to read Chapter 8? Good question. I think it is because he has not accepted responsibility for his past or present behavior. Still blame shifting? I don't know. He seems to be waiting around for me to fix things.
Mike, thanks for stepping in.
Tuff Girl, Why did he want me to read Chapter 8? Good question. I think it is because he has not accepted responsibility for his past or present behavior. Still blame shifting? I don't know. He seems to be waiting around for me to fix things.
Mike, thanks for stepping in.
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hmm - the Chapter to the Wives - oh yes I remember that Chapter well
I also remember when my then AH newly in rehab gave me a Big Book (his sponsor had given him for me) and asked me to read that lovely chapter ~
At that time I had never attended an al-anon meeting, wasn't open to recovery, and was angry at the entire world.
I not so politely gave that Big Book back to him and said that's the biggest crock of bull#### I have ever read in my life.
About 6 months later - I finally went to my first Al-Anon meeting and started on my own recovery.
after a little while ~ I finally got another copy of the Big Book and I started using it as a recovery tool.
It was strange how that Chapter had a totally different meaning to me when I read it again ~
I think it was more about my perspective than anything else. Maybe the first time I read it, I was just in a different place.
I too know that I contributed to the dysfunction of our alcoholic marriage.
My now exAH did not stay in recovery - I did and found my path lead me to leave that marriage and find a healthier life for myself.
I still use the Big Book as a part of my recovery - ALL the Chapters have great parts that help me ~
For me, I just had to be ready and willing to see where I could learn something and realize the words were not attacking or blaming me - they were just offering suggestions to help me find peace.
Just my e, s, & h ~
wishing you the best
pink hugs!
I also remember when my then AH newly in rehab gave me a Big Book (his sponsor had given him for me) and asked me to read that lovely chapter ~
At that time I had never attended an al-anon meeting, wasn't open to recovery, and was angry at the entire world.
I not so politely gave that Big Book back to him and said that's the biggest crock of bull#### I have ever read in my life.
About 6 months later - I finally went to my first Al-Anon meeting and started on my own recovery.
after a little while ~ I finally got another copy of the Big Book and I started using it as a recovery tool.
It was strange how that Chapter had a totally different meaning to me when I read it again ~
I think it was more about my perspective than anything else. Maybe the first time I read it, I was just in a different place.
I too know that I contributed to the dysfunction of our alcoholic marriage.
My now exAH did not stay in recovery - I did and found my path lead me to leave that marriage and find a healthier life for myself.
I still use the Big Book as a part of my recovery - ALL the Chapters have great parts that help me ~
For me, I just had to be ready and willing to see where I could learn something and realize the words were not attacking or blaming me - they were just offering suggestions to help me find peace.
Just my e, s, & h ~
wishing you the best
pink hugs!
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