piratessmile

Again thank you. Your posts to me and those that I have read written to others have been an education and inspiration. Your words have helped forge a small forward path but it is very clear that I have a lot more to understand about the disease and how deeply affects relationships.

I would really appreciate your feedback on the below. It is kind of a mission statement for me. I am planning to discuss some boundries and the points with my AH wife this next week. This is a completely new path for me and frankly - your encouragement or directlion, experience, coaching and tough love is really needed.


Me being miserable because of the way you choose to drink has been my choice. It has been my choice to live the roller coaster of ups and downs based on your performance against your drinking plan. It has been my choice to live a life checking the trash can and car for wine bottles, smelling your breath and listening for slurred speech on the phone or looking at your pupils to know when you took pills. They have been my choices to “coach” you about how much you are drinking to the point of arguments and to the point of you resenting me as an unsupportive and judgmental “dad”. Likewise, my choices all: to resent every time you take a drink, staying up and worrying about what you were doing and with whom and when you would be home and if you would get home in one piece. They have affected every aspect of our lives and most recently have leaked over directly into our child’s viewfield.

I will no longer live this way and choose to live independently of your drinking and your choices. I cannot control your drinking. In fact, I cannot even influence the way that you think about it. I can only work to control my actions and strive to be happy within my own self,and thus, have a positive influence over the environment in which our child will grow up.

This is not an acceptance of your choices. They harm you, our son, our marriage and friendship. The above is a statement of change.

I refuse to be powerless to your habit. I will pursue harmony but I will fight on my child’s behalf. I will hold my family together to the very best extent that I can. I will find happiness for myself and to share with you, my child and others regardless of your choices.

In the upcoming weeks I will be communicating with you on some boundaries that I will be putting into place to help separate your habit from us. This is not a personal attack at you.
• One immediate boundary that I would like your help with is for our child to stop seeing Mommy drink and smelling liquor on your breath. If you choose to drink at home can you please do it after bedtime? If this is not possible then we will minimize the exposure by doing other things if you choose to drink around us. You are welcome to join without the liquor.
• Please move “your car” into your name. I hope you see the obvious nature behind this. It is very stressful to me to know that the car is in my name and it is my liability. Moving it will reduce my concerns over your actions. We can work together in the upcoming weeks to sort out this detail in light of your job offers.

Thank you again SR team for your comments - this is a work in progress. PS

hello-kitty

I thought it was really good... until the end. Those aren't really "boundaries". They are attempts to control her behavior. Politely. But still control.

A boundary is an "I statement". It's about your behavior not hers.

For example.

This is an attempt to control your wife's behavior - an attempt to reason with an alcoholic. I'm sorry, but it won't work.

A boundary would be "I will no longer allow my child to see Mommy drunk and smell liquor on her breath. If I notice you have been drinking before our child is in bed, I will ....."

The fact that your drunk wife has access to a car is just frightening. As long as you are married and living together, you will be financially liable for any damage or death that she causes. You do realize this don't you? It doesn't matter who's name the car is in.

My boundary would be:

I will no longer allow you to drive my car while you are intoxicated. I am hiding the keys. If you do drive the car and I suspect you have been drinking, I will call the police and report you.

A boundary has to have a consequence and it is has to be something you are willing to enforce - otherwise it's just a meaningless line in the sand.

Tuffgirl

Piratesmile, what is your motive with this well written statement above?

If it is to get her attention - you'll definitely succeed. Only, I am not sure it will be the attention you may be hoping for.

Boundaries don't need to be written, shared, and agreed upon beforehand. They can simply be lived. You don't need to give her notice, in writing. Just start doing it. Don't like her drinking? Then leave and refuse to come home unless she is sober. Don't like her driving while under the influence? Call the police the next time she leaves after drinking and/or taking pills. Don't trust her alone with the kiddo? Don't let those situations happen in the first place. Find a trusted babysitter instead.

Like you, I found myself coming up with some seriously creative ways to express myself, thinking "ok, this time, I am on FIRE with my prose and he WILL hear me now!". Sadly, he never did. Didn't matter how awesome I was...he couldn't care less what I had to say, think, or what boundaries I tried to set. His first and foremost priority was drinking. Period.

Check your motives before you give this to her. Hello Kitty has a good point - it sounds pretty controlling and can easily become another bottomless threat.

piratessmile

Thank you Tuffgirl and Hello-Kitty for the direct comments and coaching - it was exactly the type of feedback I was hoping for! I won't be giving her my on fire prose. You are right it is waste of time and paper. It was written for me to arrange my thoughts and push out to ya'll for comment. Your points about follow through are exellent. Thank you.

My thinking to discuss boundaries is a notification that there will be a change in the behavior patterns - to state the cause and effect clearly and upfront. I agree this could be me trying to control her behavior again, and I will reconsider. But what do you think of an open dialog of stating up front, "hey the game is changing - do this and this is what is going to happen?"

I am not trying to kid glove the matter so much as minimize the battle over our child. Telling her this is what is happening and why I am taking kiddo out may help to minimize some of the fighting. What do you think?

And yes- regarding the liability - but as it was explained by legal they could go after our joint assets and because the car is in my name, my personal assets as well....do you know something different on this point?

CentralOhioDad

Do you listen to your Wife when she starts spouting off about changes, etc., that she's going to make? No, you don't. Guess what, the same applies in the other direction. Don't state something, DO something. As has been said many times here, actions speak louder than words. Just change. Just do. No need to talk.

I have a boundary that my Wife has no clue about: if she EVER, ever gets to the point (again) where she's talking to 'people' that are supposedly sitting around our kitchen table (mind you, it was 11:00 pm and it was just us), I will call the Squad and have her taken away from the house. Have I told her that? Nope, and won't. The boundary is for me, not her.

Live your life, protect your kiddo (I have a 3 yr old), and she will notice the growth you have. You take care of you and your child, she is responsible for herself.

Peace,
C-OH Dad

Pelican

I have noticed changes in how insurance companies decide whom is liable. After a move across country and having to find a different carrier for auto & home, I discovered that changes are occuring in how the industry looks at shared liability per household.

I recommend checking with your insurance agent. Ask if taking yourself off the title of the vehicle will have the effect you desire. Also ask what your liabilities will be based on your shared household residency?

Living together under the same roof may be enough to make you liable.

outonalimb

Piratesmile,

Welcome to SR! So glad you posted.

Your boundaries might need a little fine tuning (as suggested above) but just the fact that you're thinking about them and working to formulate them says alot about your situation.
After years of focusing on THEIR behavior and trying so hard to change it, it can be a little tricky to turn the spotlight back on us. In the end, we're the only ones we have control over. It really boils down to deciding for ourself what we can live with and what we want. Negotiating or bargaining with the alcoholic in an effort to get it is a one-way ticket to insanity.

You're doing great. Keep working at it. You're in a great place for support and encouragement because you're among people who've 'been there'. Have you considered going to al anon? Al anon has helped more than I can tell you. After years of floundering around trying to find a 'fix' for my situation, I decided to give al anon a try almost two years ago and it has literally changed my life. IT helped me put the focus where it needed to be...on ME!!

Best of luck...
Mary

LexieCat

I don't know who, in "legal", explained that to you, but if it wasn't an attorney I would talk to one. I'm a lawyer but this is not my area of expertise and the law is different in every jurisdiction. There can also be different laws applied if she happens to be driving the car out of State.

I agree with everyone else that "the speech" isn't necessary or likely to be effective. It is likely to simply fuel her resentment. You might also want to think about the practicality of some of your boundaries. Are you and your son going to leave for the night if she has a glass of wine at dinner? Or is it more practical to draw the line at when she is becoming visibly intoxicated?

Think hard about your motives. If you take the child away if she has one sip of alcohol, is that protecting the child (many kids live happily in a home where the parents have the occasional drink), or is it about punishing her or controlling her by giving her the emotional equivalent of an electric shock when she takes a drink?

Just some thoughts to consider.

LexieCat

Oh, and in response to Pelican's post--one thing you might also want to consider is that most insurance companies set their ratings and premiums according to the driving records of ALL the adults in the household, regardless of whether they are even on the policy.

In addition, all the insurance companies care about is who they are going to pay out for. The company's defenses are not necessarily going to protect YOU. To the extent someone sues you and the insurance company refuses to pay, that generally means you are stuck with any liability on your own.

I would talk to a lawyer.

piratessmile

[QUOTE=LexieCat;3830359]I agree with everyone else that "the speech" isn't necessary or likely to be effective. It is likely to simply fuel her resentment. You might also want to think about the practicality of some of your boundaries. Are you and your son going to leave for the night if she has a glass of wine at dinner? Or is it more practical to draw the line at when she is becoming visibly intoxicated?

Think hard about your motives. If you take the child away if she has one sip of alcohol, is that protecting the child (many kids live happily in a home where the parents have the occasional drink), or is it about punishing her or controlling her by giving her the emotional equivalent of an electric shock when she takes a drink?

QUOTE]

Thank you and the others for the kind quidance. I am reconsidering my "speech" but not my resolve!

I have considered the point of a single glass of wine and agree with LexieCat, but my wife drinks every night and frequently takes vicodin on top of that. She doesn't get sloppy drunk every night but does get intoxicated 4-5 nights a week. My child gets to see this. I would like to keep my child from growing up in a situation that demonstrates this type of habit is OK. Has any one successful set boundaries in this type of situation?

Tuffgirl

I would caution you about asking this question, or at least phrasing it this way. Setting boundaries are for us - what we will and won't accept in our lives. It's not about trying to change someone's bad behavior or to be used as some form of punishment. I've had the latter, and I can tell you it does set up resentments and quickly!

Success in setting boundaries looks like what CODad spelled out above. He has a line in the sand. He doesn't announce this. He just lives it. And I am sure, knowing his posts from the past, he is doing the things in his life to be prepared to follow through if she crosses this boundary.

If you don't want your child growing up in this environment, and she refuses to quit drinking and taking pills, what is your next option? If this is a boundary for you - what are the actions you will take to uphold this boundary? Are you willing to walk away, knowing you may end up sharing custody with her and her addictions? Willing to fight for full custody and supervised visitation? These are the "actions" I am talking about.

Bottom line - be careful what you determine are your boundaries, and know that because you call it a boundary doesn't mean you are ready to follow through on the actions if your boundaries are violated.

piratessmile

Thank you TuffGirl, I see your point. Throwing that question out there was kinda large… silly me.

On reconsideration my question was based in a search for some degree of normalcy. Four years of mental twists and bends has slanted my view of what is decent behavior around booze and what are reasonable boundaries. Mine have stretched, bent and pushed way past where I thought possible. I guess I was asking for a reference point. Your point - the boundaries should be mine. Thank you for the brain check.

But to answer one of your (perhaps rhetorical) questions - yes I am prepared to fight for custody of my child and have prepared for this eventuality.
It is a huge struggle for me on what I see as two options a) divorce, and my child is raised by my AH wife and b) stay together raising my child in a broken home around an AH.

I have spoken extensively with a family practice lawyer who said that it is unlikely that I will get custody until my wife either gets another DUI (and goes to jail) or shows complete incompetence. The state and local elements where I live are quite conservative when it comes to Mr. Mom. Ouch…

Thank you again to all.. very best.. PS

redatlanta

There were boundaries that I discussed early on with my RAH when he relapsed - these came down to basics - I won't get you out of jail, I won't take you to the hospital, I won't bail you out of any trouble you get in due to drinking etc. Frankly these had no bearing on him because in his mind they just weren't going to happen. He was determined to make me change my mind and agree that he could be a social drinker so he was pretty well behaved.

What he didn't see was that I was scared to death. He has health issues due to alcoholism that happened long before I knew him. I also knew that in the depths of his alcoholism he was a pretty terrible person, angry, fighting, and often blacking out.

Anyway, as I went to Al Anon and stayed on SR I understood it wasn't about setting the small boundaries which I assumed would progress along the way, rather it was a path of the real boundary which was booze or me. I also had to get myself to the point where when I said it, I meant it - an unenforced boundary is surrendering to their alcoholism in the worst way possible. So between that first set of boundaries I verbalized and the last boundary which was "I'm done, we are finished - find somewhere else to live" I didn't really say much to him about drinking.

I did do as others had mentioned which was set small boundaries in my head - like no counting or looking for bottles, not changing my plans to try a limit the drinking etc.

As for the car - every state is different. I was hit by a DD last July. The order of liability went to the owner of the car that hit me not the driver (who was not the owner) first. next the liability went to my husband's policy as I was driving his car. 3rd would have been the drunk driver's policy but she didn't have one as she didn't own a car and was just borrowing one. Finally my own policy. In the end it was the owner's policy and my own that paid out for damages as she was underinsured. (Husband's was skipped because his car is registered in FL and the policy for uninsured motorist is only applicable there). Lots of twists and turns please take Lexie's advice and contact an attorney although your insurance agent could probably tell you as well.

piratessmile

Thank you Redatlanta for sharing your experience with Boundaries.

unsureoffuture

I am new here and a lurker. I am wondering the same thing about my children. My AH will have several drinks nightly and drink to the point of intoxication in front of our young children maybe 2-3 times a month. On weekend he drinks from morning to night. I smell it on his breath, before the kids sports games/practices which start at 9-10am. He is not the mean drunk just the reclusive or overly affectionate drunk. He slurs his words and fawns over the kids hugging, kissing them. It disgusts me. In the car (I am always driving) he leans against them half passed out. I have considered leaving but my AH doesnt have a DUI since I always drive everywhere. He is a good Dad when sober. However he is most certainly an alcoholic and I'm not sure I trust them alone with him for extended periods of time which would happen if we separated.

wicked

Hello unsureoffuture, I am so glad you found this place!

What you wrote above actually gave me a chill. I am 53 years old and this is the kind of memory I have of my father. He was an obnoxious and sometimes perverse drunk. I was afraid of him and was ashamed of him and myself.
You do not want these memories for your children.

I do not understand this, are you saying if your AH gets a DUI that will be reason enough to leave?

I am a recovering alcoholic, and I can tell you I was not a good parent when I was actively drinking. I was either thinking about it, getting it, drinking it, recovering from the night before, ya know? every minute was about alcohol. The way you describe his drinking makes me think he probably can't be trusted now to take care of children.

You are in a great place here for support and encouragement.
Please keep coming back,
Beth

wicked

It is great to hear you are will to fight for your child. There has to be one parent willing to act responsibly and with great care for the children.
I agree about speaking to an attorney re: insurance.
Maybe find a family law attorney who knows about addiction in the family?

Sending encouragement to you,
Beth

Recovering2

Here's what I like about your letter piratessmile. I think when you put those thoughts, that conversation you want to have, on paper...it helps you clarify things for yourself. While it would be great for your AW to hear these things and have a change in behaviors, it's not likely while she's still active. It's more likely she will be angry or resentful. But by writing it all down for yourself, you know where YOU stand on all this. Those "boundaries" you mention at the end of your letter are really control issues for you, not boundaries. Boundaries are for you, not her. And it's true, you don't need to announce your boundaries, you just need to start practicing them. She will notice, trust me on that one. I never told my ABF that I was setting boundaries and detaching, I just started doing it. Took him about 2 weeks, then he noticed. It was a big problem for him initially, but it saved me.
You're doing great.

piratessmile

Hello unsureoffuture and fellow newbie. I have been involved on the site for 2 weeks, have learned much and hope to be at a place sometime to give back what has already been given to me. My AHW too is a good mom when she is sober. I am sorry for the place that you find yourself and your children in. It is a tuff one.

One piece of advice I was given is to document, pictures, video, receipts, and items that clearly spell you as the primary car giver, and save it out of your home. If you decide to leave and want to press for custody this information will be valuable.

Hugs to you dear. PS

piratessmile

Thank you Recovering2 and others who have coached on the matter. I agree in retrospect that discussing those boundaries is another form of control and I will choose actions (thank you CentralOhioDad) instead.

PS