4MyBoys

Well, my STBXAH has a Court ordered for no drinking with the kids and 8 hours prior. He has been braking that rule. The boys have told me. (9 and 5 year olds) I have told my attorney, the kids councelor and the kids attorney. They have asked the kids and the kids have said yes. ( the kids attorney actually said, "Well the boys could not say when or how much he had, just that he drank beer." I reminded her that he has a no drinking order and is driving the boys!)

Nothing is getting done. The boys still have to go to his house for a few hours three times a week. He drives to meet me and deliver the boys at the end of visit.

Now for the hard part. I was advised by my attorney to never ask the kids if there Dad was drinking during the visit. This can look like I am trying to alienate Dad. I can honestly say I don't remember a day in the last 12 or more years when he did not at least have a couple beers, so I know he is drinking. I believe he has been reminded about the no drinking order by his attorney because my older son, without me asking last night said, " Dad has a new trick. He hides beer in his coat to take outside to drink while he has a smoke."

OK.

Now what? Do I call the sheriffs dept. to pull him over after he leaves next time? So tired of him thinking it is ok to just keep drinking when he has the kids......I don't want the courts to think I know he is doing this and do nothing, but being married to a police officer for 16 years makes me hesitate, in case it is the one time he had not had a drink.

I don't know what to do.....any advice and your reasoning behind it would be great.

4MyBoys

Florence

Call the police if he is violating the agreement or breaking a law. Sounds like he's doing both. The lawyers can't enforce the agreement, that's the police's job.

lillamy

No advice. I'm dealing with exactly the same thing. The one time I called the cops, he refused to open the door and since the cops made the determination that the kids "weren't in immediate danger" they didn't force the issue.

So much for laws that protect the children, eh?

4MyBoys

Sorry Lillamy.

I think I will talk with my councelor tomorrow. She has worked as a councelor for kids that liasons with the courts, for years. Maybe she will have some advice. If I learn anything, I will pass it along.

I guess anyone who found a good way to deal with this is most likely not still on the boards.....

The problem with just calling the cops after I pick the boys up, is he lives in a rural area and will most likely be home by the time they get out there. If I call and have them waiting on his way to meet me, the kids will be in the car. I am trying to avoid making it harder on them. He has a high tolerance so even if he had 3-4 beers he would drive perfectly fine, would not be weaving. His breath would show diferenct but to an onlooker he would look fine.

lillamy

I missed the part where he's drunk when he's dropping them off.
That sort of puts it in a different light.

So... what if you called your local cop shop and asked for advice? (I've done that a few times...) Tell them you're meeting him on Sunday at 9 at the Shell gas station on Route 9, and that in the past, he's usually under the influence when he drops the kids off. Tell them you can't swear he will be this Sunday, but ask them if they could possibly have a trooper or city cop car in the area in case he is? I don't know how rural it is where you pick them up, or how busy your local law enforcement folks are -- I've found that my local police force sort of knows the issue people like us have, but their hands are tied by what the law allows them to do. You might find someone who's going "that's just like my sister's ex, I feel inspired to swing by and have this guy blow in my little measuring device just because I'd like to get ONE more drunk off the streets..."

NWGRITS

As an ACoA who was in the car with an intoxicated parent more than once, I can say that I would rather have seen someone haul my mother off right then and there than have the excuse made that they were trying to make things "easier" for me. Seriously. I was scared to death but no one seemed to care enough about ME and MY SAFETY to do anything. What everyone thought was best for me was really just putting my life in danger repeatedly. Forget what might be easier or harder for the kids. They'll think more of YOU for protecting them, and they'll be ok. Just make sure that if that scenario does play out, that someone is there to talk to them about it afterward.

dollydo

I would suggest that you go to your local police or sheriffs station, explain the situation and see what they have to say, to me, that is a good starting point. Under these circumstances, understanding the law is very important.

Florence

I like this. Have you ever heard of "community policing"? This is when you know something is going on, and you call the police to say, "I need help. What do I need to do? How can you help me?" Usually they are more than happy to have non-adversarial relationships with community members.

MamaKit

4myBoys,
I have no advice from experience but want to share some thoughts that may or may not be helpful.

Are the cops that you would call still friends with your ex? Is he protected by the "blue wall?" Hopefully there is some cop, as noted above, that can relate to your situation and will help you out. This sounds tough.

My lawyer told me right off that "no alcohol" provisions are included in visitation agreements all the time but that they are difficult to enforce. They want some sort of evidence to impose further restrictions/modify the order. But the fact the visitation is so limited indicates that they believe it is more likely than not that his drinking could endanger them. And as you point out, you don't want to look like you did nothing when you believe they could be in a car with him drunk.

All that being said, parental alienation is also pretty tough to prove. I imagine that it's tougher to prove than his alcohol abuse. Rather than ask the kids everytime, maybe you could sit them down once and say - if you think dad has been drinking, it's okay to tell me. Keep track of what they say. It's hearsay and likely inadmissable but it certainly can't hurt. There has to be a way to get this info without it being alienation. I might press my attorney a bit more on this to see if he/she is really weighing the risks appropriately.

I know you want to protect them, but I wonder if they shouldn't have some guidelines about saying "no" to getting in the car if they know he's been drinking. Have them call you and you can pick them up at his place. Call him and say "I'm in the neighborhood, can I save you a trip?"
I also agree that saving them from seeing their Dad pulled over is kind (and I totally get it) but maybe shouldn't be the primary concern.
I'm going to have to face all of this this at some point soon. It's scary to think about.

Sorry for the rambling thoughts here. I'm sorry for what you're going through and I hope it changes.
Hugs
MamaKit

Titanic

The system cares more about protecting the rights of an A parent to do WTF the A wants, and it not getting caught up in a "domestic" dispute, than to give the benefit of the doubt to and protect the kids ... until something really bad happens to prove that the non-A was right all along - like something that might warrant child or family services departments getting involved!

It shouldn't be that way! There should be some bright line rule like: once you're guilty of operating a motor vehicle under the influence (even without the kids), public intoxication, etc., or you go into rehab or the hospital for alcohol/drug treatment, then the benefit of the doubt after that goes to the kids and non-A until the A proves sober recovery for at least 18 months or even 2 years.

Sure, some people are going to claim that would be damaging to the A, and make them avoid going to get treatment. Others like me would say, no it comes with the territory, the A can choose to get treatment (and then sober recovery so as to get the risks to kids down and the A's full rights back) or the A can choose to avoid tratment (just delaying the inevitable). Or fine, go to some secret treatment facility (if you come out clean, great and, if not, it's just delaying the inevitable). Also, kids are a pretty big motivator and, though we know the A has an addiction, the possible loss of some parental rights might keep SOME As from doing these types of things.

Do the A's "rights" even compare to the innocent kids' safety and well-being?

SadHeart

This is so dependent on the judge. Remember there are judges with drinking problems.

But here's a possible solution. Have your attorney file a motion to have the custody exchange take place at the police station with the requirement that before he takes custody of the children he breathalyzes. Some judges will do this, some won't.

I have a friend in Mississippi whose 9 year old daughter was in the car when the XAH was hauled off to jail for a DUI. She went to CPS until her mother could pick her up (it took 24 hours because of mandatory medical and mental health check) and STILL the judge let XAH have unsupervised visitation without monitoring and allowed the child to be driven by him.

States receive Federal money based on how much non custodial parents have visitation and by how much child support ordered is actually paid. Parents who are encouraged to take their visitation are much more likely to pay child support. So judges are biased to support visitation among noncustodials even in less than optimal conditions. It gets the compliance numbers for visitation and child support both up. States who have low compliance rates lose Federal money.

MamaKit

Really? I thought family court where custody, support and visitation are adjudicated were state courts - thus, state funded.

I know there is a federal program that helps states locate parents who are obligated to pay child support and provides for paternity testing programs and such. I think this money goes to state agencies that collect child support and attorneys general to help with investigations of extreme violations and fraud. Not the courts.

It seems unlikely that state legislatures would make funding contingent on how judges rule. How on earth could they be impartial when this is the case?

There's a great book entitled "Do Your Divorce Right" written by 2 judges named Kennedy and Horton. It gives insight into how judges make decisions in divorce cases. It's a guidebook for those going through it.

It's available on amazon. I recommend it to anyone going through this. I just got it and I've read it twice. I find it very helpful. It may not answer the question on this thread specifically but it gives good insight on how judges view custody and visitation.

MamaKit

Graceland

I honestly don't know, and could be facing this in the future myself. I called the police on my husband when I knew that he had driven the kids to a baseball game after drinking. Because of his high tolerance and ability to process alcohol quickly, nothing was done.

My thoughts are with you, 4MyBoys. I truly hope that your counselor has some good advice.