4MyBoys

I am going through a bitter divorce with an STBXAH that is still actively drinking. The question I have is, how do you get through a divorce and protect the kids? He has a non-drinking court order and still drinks. The kids (9&4) tell me. I have temporary custody but he still gets some limited visitation that is unsupervised. My attorney wants him to have to have random alcohol testing. Great. So even if he tests positive for alcohol, what is the worst the courts will do? Make him go to AA? From all I understand here on the boards, treatment is not going to work if he doesn't want it to work. My attorney said she has had parents who go get their slip from a meeting, leave and go to a bar. How is forcing him to go to meetings going to change anything??????

By the way, a kicker last night was my attorney told me to never ask the kids if Daddy was drinking at all. It makes me look bad. Like I am alienating Dad and making him look bad in the kids eyes. Huh?!?

Has anyone else here been in the same situation? What do you do with this? I just want to protect my kids.........

4MyBoys

marie1960

You are 100% correct in wanting to protect your kids.

Keep documenting everything.

Here is a thought, when he has the kids, can you call him, to maybe remind him of an upcoming school event ? just get creative and think something up. ( I could ALWAYS tell when XA was drinking by the change in his voice) SO..... if you can detect that he has been drinking, call the cops, and inform them that he is violating his court order. Let them do their job, and furnish you with the additional documentation you need to keep your kids out of harm's way.

Stay strong.

marie1960

What i also wanted to include in my above post is if the two of you are not on speaking terms, you have the opportunity to present him with a co-parenting truce. I believe if you give him enough rope, will he provide you with all the evidence you need. The old saying comes to mind. " Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer."

You have every right to expect that your kids are safe when they are with him. I am sure others will have more ideas.

lillamy

I tried having that included in my divorce agreement and AXH refused -- he said he'd bring it to trial over that. And I agreed to drop it, because he was, at that point, sober.

IF You have random alcohol testing included, make sure it's expressed so that he needs to go get tested and provide the results to your lawyer. The only thing my AXH would agree to was that if I insisted, he'd go get tested, and then he'd give the result to me. For him, that was only a way to make sure I continued being his caretaker, that he could continue manipulating me and sucking me back in.

If he's still actively drinking, I would push for supervised visits only. I'd leave everything else up for negotiation -- money, house, belongings -- and have supervised visits as my only non-negotiable. But I'm saying that as a mom who has had to send her kids to a guy I know for a fact is drunk every night. I just haven't had the evidence to call the cops on him.

Florence

I would check into a guardian ad litem. If the AH is as bad as you think, you present the evidence and let the guardian ad litem run with it. I had a particularly nasty, monied, and vindictive ex, and it turned out that he couldn't back up anything that he claimed about me or about himself, from his education, his job, his support system, or any of the accusations that I was drug-addled wh***.

Others are wary about having a guardian ad litem, but that's what put everything in my favor by removing the he-said-she-said from the equation. Basically, I was telling the truth to the court and he wasn't.

It did mean that I had to answer every accusation he made about me directly, and it was humiliating. He accused me of all kinds of sexual depravity, for example, that I had to answer in front of a judge, my parents, and him. It was abuse by proxy, IMO.

I wouldn't ask the kids if daddy had been drinking. But I *would* advise them what to do if they think he's been drinking dangerously (driving, getting nasty, whatever). Basically, this is the reality and you need to educate them to keep them safe. All of this would be defensible in court provided you could show evidence of his alcoholism.

Florence

Also this.

lillamy

Exactly. We've worked out a system with the help of our therapist, so that the kids know what to do when it's an emergency, and what to do when it's uncomfortable but not dangerous. Giving them tools (and their own cellphones!) has made a lot of difference when it comes to how in control they feel of the situation.

4MyBoys

I think I am just early in the game right now. My son has just had 3 sessions. The issue is also that he drinks during their visit and then drives them everytime to meet me everytime. The kids attorney knows this and still nothing has been done.

I would like to get my older son a cell phone but when I gave him a piece of paper with my phone number on it he immediately hid it in his sock and shoe so Daddy would not see it and take it. I think he would have a melt down due to anxiety if I gave him a phone.

Florence, My kids have a court assigned attorney which is what I think you are referring to. So far not a huge help. She did help when my son had a panic attack at school because he was so afraid to go to his Dad's and was worrying about getting grilled over what was said at counceling. But she really has done nothing about the alcohol.

A trial is a foregone conclusion. I am going to have to dispute a ton of false claims against me also. So I am so sorry you had to do that Florence. I have already had to ask my doctor for a note to show that I have not been on anti-anxiety meds or meds of any sort since I left (funny how you don't need them when you take the drinker out of your life!) and that I am not bi-polar. That was am embarrassing conversation with my doctor.

The alcohol test I guess is just a swab and can detect any alcohol at all but not how much. My attorney said it won't matter because he is on a no drinking court order. She said to have someone with my when it is administered and if he refuses that it is automatically taken as a sign of guilt.

I cannot even speak with him, it sends me into panic attacks. We only text. I cannot imagine asking for a swab!!! I will do it though.

I just have a hard time seeing the forest through the trees right now. Meaning, that even if I prove he is still drinking, I don't think they will cut off visits. And even if they make him do a program, its not going to work if he is not ready. Right? What is this trial and hashing out all the ugliness going to really and truely gain me?

Feeling powerless,
4MyBoys

Florence

If there is a safety issue or a violation of a court order, don't tell your lawyer, call the police. Your lawyer is an advocate for you, but they can't enforce the law.

Also, IME, family court judges tend to get cranky if your kids have been in trouble and all you're done is catalog all the violations of their safety with your lawyer. I used to be a CASA and we ran into this all the time.

I'll tell you, I tried to take the high road in my custody case with a Narcissist (he had NPD, no alcohol abuse) and it got me absolutely nothing. Eventually the guy turned out to be so stupid that he fought for the state legal minimum visitation and "won" it and walked away feeling like the biggest winner in the world. But in the meantime, I put up with one of the ugliest custody cases I've ever heard of.

If I had to do it all over again (and apparently I'm going to have to):

1) Different lawyer. I don't want to mow my exes down, but I don't want to be mowed down either. My lawyer didn't seem particularly interested in my interests.

2) Be up front with everything, but concede nothing that isn't 100% true.
My ex accused me of a lot of things that could be inferred if someone was really free with interpreting the information. Like, he accused me of drinking to cope with depression. I said I didn't drink to cope with depression, in fact I didn't drink at all then, and I saw a therapist for my depression, and next thing you know the question of alcohol was dropped but my depression and my therapist were up for questioning. I implicated myself, it was ridiculous, and I didn't know any better. At the same time, I left out pertinent information because I didn't want to get dirty. But the fact that my ex committed insurance fraud several times, cheated on me, had a long list of traffic tickets, was failing out of school, and couldn't hold down a job, were ABSOLUTELY pertinent to the case, because it showed a lack of responsibility and a willingness to lie or resort to criminal behavior to get his way. It's my regret that I never pursued that.

I also never pursued him when he stalked me. To this day he denies following me around town in a variety of cars, or sitting outside my apartment with binoculars, and nobody has to believe him because I never called the police or pressed charges. But you can bet that he absolutely called the police on me the one time I slapped him across the face (after stalking me, he accused me of sleeping with my best friend in front of my mother, which was untrue -- she believed him, btw), and the police showed up and took a report. So on record, I am the abuser. He's totally clean.

3) I'm allowed to have non-negotiable demands. An example would be no alcohol during visitations, and right to deny visitation if he fails an at-home swab or breathalyzer test/right to have him removed from your property without the children if you have reasonable suspicions of alcohol abuse, etc etc. My ex threatened me every time I tried to hold up something as a non-negotiable and I would back down. If I had to do it all over, I'd call his bluff and hold out.

4) Make a list of everything you have in your favor. You're emotionally stable. You're financially stable or have a plan to be. You're not a substance abuser. It's best for everyone to have distance from your abusive, addict ex, and it's your responsibility to see that happen, i.e. you have integrity and courage. You have a strong support system -- and if you don't, make one so 1) you have people to lean on, and 2) you can demonstrate to the court that your kids will be better off in your care.

5) Document your ex's violations of the temporary agreement, and any other behaviors or comments he makes that cause you concern. It's probably not admissable, but it can give a picture of what you're dealing with and with what frequency.

The thing to keep in perspective is that you're right. You're the one on top here. He can rage in your face, but he can't take away your confidence that no matter how hard this is, it's better to be away from him than otherwise. His rage and frustration is his to deal with.

I'm sorry you're dealing with this. I'll be next to you soon, and while I hope it will be an amicable split I just can't count on that.

Florence

You might have a GAL (guardian ad litem) or a CASA (court appointed special advocate). In my state, CASAs are volunteers, and they make recommendations based on the children's best interests. GALs do the same but are usually appointed when there are bigger things at stake -- professional reputation, an estate, accusations of abuse or neglect.

Remember the GAL is not around to help you, so I wouldn't expect the GAL to do anything for you. If anything, the GAL has an adversarial relationship with the parents. The GAL's job is to represent the children only.

4MyBoys

Florence, Thank you so much! I should not have looked at this at work because now I am all teary.....It just feels so good to speak with someone (even through the computer) who has experienced even a little of what I am going through. Everyone I know has just had to fight in court over money. I have so much more at stake right now. (We still have not touched the money issues and I filed June 5th.)

My kids must have what you are refering to as a GAL. She is just for the kids representation and court appointed and normally not supposed to tell me anything. My attorney is always shocked when she does.

I am going to print out the list you made me above. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

4MyBoys

Florence

It was a long time before I realized he was just some guy. He didn't have all the emotional or social power that I imagined he did.

I also suggest that you have your own counselor if you can get one. I had someone hold my hand through the whole process who helped me put his accusations and power grabs in context, and that helped me handle them with as much grace as I was capable of at the time.

You can do this.

laurie6781

Demand that your attorney go for SUPERVISED VISITATION by a third
party qualified to do 'supervised visitation.' You are in California and
family court judges more and more when proof has been presented to
them that the one parent has already violated their order will so order.

And he will have to pay for the person that does the Supervising.

You may also want to tell your attorney what you have told the kids
lawyer so far and the non responsive attitude of that lawyer. Your
attorney can request a change of Guardian Ad Litem listing the
reasons why, including said lawyer does not seem to have the welfare
of the children in the performance of their job to date.

J M H O

Love and hugs,