suki44883

Sure there is. People don't change their natural inclinations. Being in denial is lying to themselves as much as lying to anyone else. No one wants to admit that they have no control of a bottle of liquid. No one wants to believe that they lose control or cannot stop when they want to. Sure, sometimes they might say that they do have a problem, but it's usually when they are faced with remorse over something they did or said while drunk. Once they get past that, then they are right back to drinking and saying they can quit whenever they want. Most of them actually believe that. That is called denial.

Dee74

well, I've been on both sides and both sides really sucked - I never want to be in either position again.

'easy' is not a word I'd use for either experience Choub.

D

SadHeart

I agree it's easier for the A for many reasons. Quitting our unhealthy behaviors is more or less equally hard. It's hell to stop codepending. It's hell to detox and stop drinking.

But A's have some advantages. They usually have the oblivion of escape into drugs and alcohol when it gets too bad. Codies don't (unless they are also A's). Codies never get any relief. I envy A relapses--they at least get a couple hours of relief. Codies don't, and both feel terrible for relapsing later when they realize what they've done.

Also A's usually have someone running around fixing things for them, cushioning them, taking care of them while they are recovering. Codies have to take care of themselves. And often the A and maybe even children who are hurting terribly. A's can focus on themselves, Codies NEED to focus on themselves to recover and cannot.

Also A's lose a lot because of their addiction, but so do codies. The difference is after the A loses his stuff and then loses the codie's stuff. The codie works and still loses and loses.

The A gets a lot of sympathy and support (it's a disease, you're a survivor, it's not your fault); almost nobody understands a codie's problem.

Codependency is as painful and life destroying as being addicted to a substance, but it has added burdens and no relief ever.

Until they recover.

suki44883

I don't believe anyone on either side has it "easy," but I think the addict stands to lose the most. Job, family, health, friends, jail time, etc. They are both psychologically and physically addicted. The physical is easiest to get past, but that is not to say it is easy. The psychological addiction is much more difficult. Alcohol affects the brain. An addict can stop drinking yet still have permanent disabilities.

I have been on both sides, and refuse to be in either position again.

Spes

Thanks Laurie....I needed that.

Eddiebuckle

Pretty simple... The fear of my true self being discovered by the world for what I knew it to be: utterly lacking worth.

Lilmssunshine

I think this thread should be deleted. It doesnt matter who has it easier. What matters is letting go.

LosingmyMisery

I am an alcoholic and was married to an abusive alcoholic. Been on both sides of the fence and both are hell. I couldn't understand how my ex could choose booze over his family. Then, I lived it. I drank, hurt those I loved, embarrassed myself, and had to live with the sham, the guilt and was disgusted by my drinking and actions. I couldn't understand it. Why did I do what I did? The cycle is a viscous one. I drank to relieve the pain, the guilt, the fear, the shame. I hated what I was doing and the booze didn't take me away and take my problems away. Yes, I was rendered incapacitated, but every waking moment I was aware my actions were wrong. I had to stop, wanted to stop, but didn't know how.

Then I became addicted to booze and my brain and body told me I needed more. I wanted to quit, but couldn't. I knew how to drink and try to escape, but never escaped to anywhere good. The alcoholic knows that. They have to live with it and no...that isn't easy.

I have been sober for nearly eight years and I'm still ashamed and still feel guilty over not being the best daughter, sister, mother, person I could have been. I have to cope with that and can only hope people judge me for the person I am today, not the sad sack I used to be.

By no means did my drinking and the pain I created for myself minimize the pain of living with an alcoholic. I was hurt, verbally, emotionally, mentally...yeah, they both suck. I've also dealt with getting past that. All we can do is work on improving ourselves, our defects and our lives. Today, I'm sober. Today, I would never tolerate having a relationship with an alcoholic. The choice is mine to make. So...from my perspective, they are both hell.

suki44883

The thread hasn't been at all contentious, so I don't see any reason to close it or delete it.

choublak

I feel there is a lot of knowledge in this thread and I apologize to whoever I offended. I was in an ugly mood earlier today and made this thread as a form of channeling my own feelings.

SadHeart

Mine not only does this but gets 100% SSDI to do it for free and gets about $2600 a month for VA disability for his 'ptss'. He gets PAID to do nothing. And he didn't have to use any of it for child support. VA cannot be garnished and it took years to get the dependent portion of SSDI because he would claim he had no children just for spite.

SadHeart

Leave and go where? To work, where they have to deal with the alcoholic boss? Leave and go to their own apartment where the drunk next door keeps such a filthy house HER rats infiltrate your basement (and she knocks on your door at 5 am because she doesn't know where she left her car, btw do you know and will you help her find it?).

Leave and visit family, so you can deal with the surly father and sarcastic grandfather? Leave and go to the gym where the guy on the treadmill next to you sweats booze while he tries to pick you up?

People with addictions are everywhere and those addictions mess up YOUR life. I've dealt with someone else's addiction almost every year of my life, and most (not all) but most of those relationships were NOT voluntary.

The drunk who smashes into my car, the drunk who follows me around the drug store suggesting condom brands to me, the coworker who creates extra work for me because she's drinking steadily, the kid across the street who breaks into my car to steal change, the neighbor who has a screaming fit because my flowers don't match her flowers, the brother who starts something at every holiday and is evicted AGAIN, the ex who won't pay support and breaks his kids' heart by not showing up for visitation.

There is no escaping alcoholics and addicts. You have to work very hard to have an addict-free life. Right now I have all the addicts out of my life except the ghosts...my dead alkie father and my addicted son who's mooching off people in another state and won't (thank goodness) contact me.

I'll take responsibility for the husbands and friends I've brought into my life; but I'm not responsible for the alkie parents, bosses, neighbors, or strangers...

And frankly in the substance abusers I've known most and longest, I've never seen them get straight enough to be ashamed or even to notice what they've done to others. I know it happens, but it hasn't happened much in my experience. Most of the substance abusers I've been most closely associated went to their deaths or are heading towards their deaths completely oblivious to the damage in their wake.

I think this thread/topic demonstrates why it would be so nice to have Alanon and Naranon groups comprised only of those who have loved ones with addictions. The 'double' and 'triple' winners I think sometimes cannot see past their own A pain to the full pain of a codie who spends their lives dealing with someone else's addiction without ever experiencing addiction themselves.

I think the never-addicted do commonly have issues like this and should not be scolded and dismissed with 'where do you come up with this stuff'. Why should anything be off the table? I know there are several topics such as this one that it's just not worth it to bring up but which among the never-addicted are probably very common.

I know for one I would LOVE to start a thread "Why on earth were they so STUPID as to get themselves addicted in the first place? Why even put that first cigarette in your mouth? Why sniff that first line of coke? Why ever EVER use meth even ONCE? Why not just follow the law and common sense and JUST NEVER START?"

It's a legitimate question, but it wouldn't be worth starting. And I bet every never-addicted person cleaning up the mess and suffering from someone else's addiction (and remember not all these relationships are voluntary) has thought it. But if you asked it you would be ripped to shreds and/or given tales of self pity that really don't answer the question.

I think many, many never addicted people have looked enviously upon someone in addiction living the life of a perpetual teenager or worse King Baby, catered to, lazy, eating, sleeping, using, cheating, acting out, passing out and have thought, "This is working very well for him. At least SOME times he's happy."

I even think that some times codies are lured by this thinking into developing substance abuse or addiction or alcoholic problems of their own. "It works for him, let me try it."

Good thread, honest thought, OP. Don't let anyone shame you for having--or EXPRESSING-- it.

SadHeart

Do you understand that she had her own problems and heartbreaks with your drinking and that she could never have 'made' you change your mind and it wasn't her responsibility to figure out exactly the right thing you needed to hear? Do you understand that her comment was a reaction to your drinking and the pain you'd given her and an acculumulation of all her disappointments with your broken promises and false starts. That she was asking an honest question because she NEEDED to know the honest answer?

She couldn't have 'made' you do anything no matter what she said. If she could have made you do something simply by using words, she would have done so to get you sober years before. That as tired as you were of hearing her talk about your drinking she was equally tired of your drinking and the effect it was having on her life.

Morning Glory

No one on this thread on either side of the fence did anything to any of us so we shouldn't project our resentments and pain onto each other.

We can learn a lot from each other. We are all here for recovery.

Terminally Unique

FWIW, SadHeart, it is indeed a legitimate question, and I have pondered it many times myself. You are probably correct regarding the likely outcome, but you might also be surprised at some of the responses to that question. Not everyone on the 'other side' spins tales of self-pity or concurs with the biological robot view of the addict. Either way, though, I hope you find your peace.

choublak

The "where do you come up with this stuff" was directed at me. Not only did I not see that particular incident as scolding or dismissing, but people (parents, other relatives, teachers, peers) have been asking me that (where do you come up with this stuff) my whole life and it has nothing to do with my never having been addicted. I think and say a lot of off-the-table stuff. It's part of who I am. I see it as a compliment.

Well, for some people, they can be born into it, and grow up with parents drinking/using so to them it's normal...not "normal" per se, but young children (all young children, not just those from addict households) think everyone is like their own families, and then they go to school and find out that everybody is different. Following the law and common sense is put into a different perspective...i.e., addict parents telling their kids not to trust/talk to police...

Seren

Frequently I read through the threads created by those struggling with addiction in the Alcoholism and Substance Abuse Forums to try and understand, if only a small portion, of what it is like to live with addiction. So much of what I read there is filled with despair and self-loathing. And yes, they are doing it to themselves.

As I read through the threads created by those of us whose lives have been impacted because we love someone who struggles with addiction here in the Friends and Family forums, so much of what I read here is filled with despair, low self-esteem, and sometimes self-loathing. And yes, we do decide to stay and accept the poor treatment.

It may seem that someone who struggles with addiction could just "make the choice" to not drink or use, but something seems to keep them stuck.

It may seem that someone who loves an addicted person could just "let them go", but something seems to keep us stuck.

Does one "side" have it any easier than the other? NO.
Do we help each other by pointing fingers and blaming one another? NO.

As my tag line and hero Red Green would say, "Remember, I'm pullin' for ya. We're all in this together."

Seren

I think by now we have all had a chance to have our say. Some posts have been removed under Rule 4.

With that, this thread is closed.