Under attack but shields are holding...
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy 
As someone else said, I have no doubt that her pain is very real and being an outsider (I am not able to do this with my own A spouse yet) I can have detached empathy for the hurt she is describing. It doesn't mean it is okay to lay the guilt trips or that her perception of being shut out is accurate-- I just hear in her words she's hurting and it's simultaneously sad and frustrating since in the same breath she's saying she is learning so much in rehab and then asking what she can do to get her family back... Those 2 things don't seem real compatible. If she's serious about rehab then she'd be working in that instead of obsessively writing you the same thing over and over...
I wonder if she even realizes she's trying to manipulate? Do you think so? (I'm guessing yes-- you know her best).
I know you've told us and obviously you're demonstrating you're able to deal with the emails and texts and find humor in them but I'd suggest what others here have suggested to me IF they get to a point for you or your daughters where they are not funny and instead are too frustrating and that is just don't read/open them.
My father lately who I am not in contact with for a number of reasons, has been relentlessly trying to reach me and get a response. Reading your wife's words reminds me a lot of his actually. Lots of what have I done, tell me what I can do etc... I REFUSE to respond since all it does is open the flood gates for his rationalizing and justifying and defending completely unacceptable behavior. But I also was getting upset with all that I was reading so now I am not. Cards, emails, packages. All getting tossed. My ramble is just to say that if her words do get upsetting for you or your D's I'd go with just not reading them.
I wonder if she even realizes she's trying to manipulate? Do you think so? (I'm guessing yes-- you know her best).
I know you've told us and obviously you're demonstrating you're able to deal with the emails and texts and find humor in them but I'd suggest what others here have suggested to me IF they get to a point for you or your daughters where they are not funny and instead are too frustrating and that is just don't read/open them.
My father lately who I am not in contact with for a number of reasons, has been relentlessly trying to reach me and get a response. Reading your wife's words reminds me a lot of his actually. Lots of what have I done, tell me what I can do etc... I REFUSE to respond since all it does is open the flood gates for his rationalizing and justifying and defending completely unacceptable behavior. But I also was getting upset with all that I was reading so now I am not. Cards, emails, packages. All getting tossed. My ramble is just to say that if her words do get upsetting for you or your D's I'd go with just not reading them.
I guess humor is what I use to protect me. I know she is hurting but I also know that she is in outpatient rehab and has the tools she needs to start getting better if she chooses to use them. She is the only one who can stop her pain.
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy
-- I just hear in her words she's hurting and it's simultaneously sad and frustrating since in the same breath she's saying she is learning so much in rehab and then asking what she can do to get her family back... Those 2 things don't seem real compatible. If she's serious about rehab then she'd be working in that instead of obsessively writing you the same thing over and over...
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Originally Posted by m1k3
I know she is hurting but I also know that she is in outpatient rehab and has the tools she needs to start getting better if she chooses to use them. She is the only one who can stop her pain.
Right now she's hoping she can get others to relieve that pain for her.
You're doing good, Capt. Kirk!
PS. I lost it on the Klingon comparison!
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Of course she is hurting. I think my xah was genuinly hurting. Very much so.
The thing that I had to learn and realize (and it was a very hard for me to deal with) was that I was not responsible for his hurting, and I was not responsible for fixing that hurting. He was. I actually *could not* fix it.
I was panic stricken (I literally felt panic in my heart) when he was suffering. Like there was an emergency of some burning house I had to save him from. A physical desire to fix it now. That is something I carried with me from childhood and it perpetuated a very dysfunctional dynamic. It hurt me and it hurt him. I still feel that sometimes but I have some tools and awareness now that help me seperate my business from someone elses.
The thing that I had to learn and realize (and it was a very hard for me to deal with) was that I was not responsible for his hurting, and I was not responsible for fixing that hurting. He was. I actually *could not* fix it.
I was panic stricken (I literally felt panic in my heart) when he was suffering. Like there was an emergency of some burning house I had to save him from. A physical desire to fix it now. That is something I carried with me from childhood and it perpetuated a very dysfunctional dynamic. It hurt me and it hurt him. I still feel that sometimes but I have some tools and awareness now that help me seperate my business from someone elses.
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Originally Posted by m1k3
CKN, my daughter who posts here just received this email
We talked a bit on the phone and decided she has built a harassing email template. All she has to do is fill in the blanks. Saves on putting any real effort or thought into communications.
Good thing both D's are well aware of what is going on.
Any bets on what's next?
We talked a bit on the phone and decided she has built a harassing email template. All she has to do is fill in the blanks. Saves on putting any real effort or thought into communications.
Good thing both D's are well aware of what is going on.
Any bets on what's next?
However, ...maybe try to have some empathy. Your wife (and Mom) is sick. Sick in the head and in the heart. She is definitely quacking galore, but she is still sick. The effects of the pills and the alcohol on her brain are still very much evident. She's going to remain "sick" for a long time, and no she isn't hearing anything you have to say. Alcohol and drugs seem to make addict completely deaf to any voices but their own.
P.S. My therapist says I HAVE to work on my empathy. How'd I do above?
P.S.S. I don't handle the quacking well. I finally had to cut off all communication and the RAH is 7 months sober. I think it takes a long time to truly recover from substance abuse. And as long as I can't muster empathy and compassion when he starts quacking, I am just as toxic to him as he is to me.
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Thank you Mike for sharing what is happening in your life. For me, it's a great reminder of where I was, and where I will never go again. So interesting to me how there was a time, I would believe all that quacking, never seeing it for the manipulation it was. So glad I am come along way. Have SR, Al-Anon and a wonderful therapist to thank.
As others have said, your AW is not yet done, and does not at all get it. Good for you for taking care of yourself and enjoying your family.
When I left my RABF, I got the quacking emails and texts, many which alluded to ending his life, and when I did choose to respond, all I said was, "Call your sponsor, or someone from your program, they can help you, I cannot." It was so hard at the time, but I had to, in order to save my own life.
Stay strong, you are doing great
As others have said, your AW is not yet done, and does not at all get it. Good for you for taking care of yourself and enjoying your family.
When I left my RABF, I got the quacking emails and texts, many which alluded to ending his life, and when I did choose to respond, all I said was, "Call your sponsor, or someone from your program, they can help you, I cannot." It was so hard at the time, but I had to, in order to save my own life.
Stay strong, you are doing great
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Originally Posted by Tuffgirl
P.S. My therapist says I HAVE to work on my empathy. How'd I do above?
P.S.S. ...And as long as I can't muster empathy and compassion when he starts quacking, I am just as toxic to him as he is to me.
P.S.S. ...And as long as I can't muster empathy and compassion when he starts quacking, I am just as toxic to him as he is to me.
Tuffgirl, you did a fine job of it above, however, you're not giving yourself much in return.
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TG, empathy I don't have because I have never been where she is so to be honest I really don't get it. Compassion I have, lots of it. But all the compassion in the world isn't going to change what is happening. I have reached a point that I don't have a vested interest in her getting better or not. As a compassionate human being I would love to see her 'get it' , start working her recovery and rebuild her life.
Humor is a tool I use to deal with things that I have no control over. If you can't laugh a life's absurdities they will eat you up. You don't have to be serious to be compassionate.
I wish her no harm and I am not mocking her motives or feelings anywhere in this thread. That still doesn't mean her methods can not be both humorous or a learning experience for others who will go through the same situation in the future.
There is a quote in Stranger In A Strange Land that says humor is how humans deal with pain and it is what truly makes use human.
Take what you want and leave the rest.
Humor is a tool I use to deal with things that I have no control over. If you can't laugh a life's absurdities they will eat you up. You don't have to be serious to be compassionate.
I wish her no harm and I am not mocking her motives or feelings anywhere in this thread. That still doesn't mean her methods can not be both humorous or a learning experience for others who will go through the same situation in the future.
There is a quote in Stranger In A Strange Land that says humor is how humans deal with pain and it is what truly makes use human.
Take what you want and leave the rest.
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BTW, agree or disagree, I truly appreciate everyone's responses. This type of discussion is a great tool for all of us to grow each in our own way. There are many paths up this mountain.
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Originally Posted by Tuffgirl
However, ...maybe try to have some empathy. Your wife (and Mom) is sick. Sick in the head and in the heart. She is definitely quacking galore, but she is still sick. The effects of the pills and the alcohol on her brain are still very much evident. She's going to remain "sick" for a long time, and no she isn't hearing anything you have to say. Alcohol and drugs seem to make addict completely deaf to any voices but their own.
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Mike - Do you feel prepared for threats of suicide? You probably need to give that some serious consideration. I've been thru that with loved ones before and it's very scary while it's happening. My advice in your situation is to call the police and have them do a wellness check, but stay out of it yourself or she will continue to use that as an attention getter because it works.
Do you think she has progressed through to the "bargaining" stage of the grieving process? (The following doesn't even touch the subject of addiction, but you get the idea...)
Do you think she has progressed through to the "bargaining" stage of the grieving process? (The following doesn't even touch the subject of addiction, but you get the idea...)
Shock or DisbeliefThe initial realization that a marriage is or might be beyond any hope of saving will affect individual members of a family differently. Some may be emotionally stunned, unable to form or express strong feelings about the divorce or any other aspects of their life. Others may refuse to believe it, insisting instead that the process of divorce is simply a prolonged dispute. This stage may be brief, or may last several weeks, according to the Launching New Lives website.
DenialFollowing disbelief, a family member may actively deny or literally forget that the divorce is taking place. According to Anger Management Resources, this is an unconscious attempt by the mind to protect an individual from the pain of loss. A spouse may make new, repeated attempts at romancing their partner in an unconscious attempt to prove that the threat of divorce is not serious. Children may observe brief moments of amicability as signs that the divorce was never real. Some may even tune out unhealthy behavior, focusing only on the relationship's positive aspects as signs that divorce is not a serious consideration.
AngerAny member of a family that is affected by divorce may feel personally affronted and blame others. Anger is a common response when faced with significant decisions in which a person has little or no perceived input and will have a potentially negative effect. These circumstances often generate feelings of helplessness, which can fuel an individual's anger.
BargainingAn individual will attempt to make a deal to change the situation. In general situations involving grief, this stage often involves a bargain with God. Bargaining is not a prevalent stage in all occurrences of grief, but is listed on Stages-of-Grief-Recovery.com as a common stage in divorce. While divorce-related grief can involve an appeal to a higher power, bargaining is often prevalent in promises by one spouse to change the behavior and habits, or by children changing their behavior in hopes that the parents will reward them by staying together.
GuiltThe Springboard Group lists guilt on the Launching New Lives website as a feeling that one did not do enough to prevent a loss. During this stage, affected individuals begin to examine ways in which the divorce is directly attributable to their actions. Children may blame stress caused by their behavior or performance at school. A spouse may recall ways in which they could have made their partner happier, avoided arguments or made greater contributions to the marriage and the family. Stages-of-Grief-Recovery.com notes that this stage is often accompanied by the unattainable wish to turn back the clock and do things differently, fueled by the griever's sense of regret and self-blame.
DepressionThe state of chronic, debilitating sadness is a common and natural reaction to loss. This stage of grief can manifest most notably in teenagers affected by their parents' divorce, as the physical and hormonal changes they experience during puberty leave them more susceptible to depression than adults. Depression can also manifest as a constant state of reflection on times when the marriage was happier and divorce was not imminent, according to the Springboard Group.
Acceptance and Hope
Coming to terms with the reality of a divorce will bring the affected family members to a realization that their lives have been changed in significant, unalterable ways and that things will never be the same again, but that life will go on and they have hope of finding happiness in other ways.
Read more: The Seven Stages Of Grief For Divorce | LIVESTRONG.COM
DenialFollowing disbelief, a family member may actively deny or literally forget that the divorce is taking place. According to Anger Management Resources, this is an unconscious attempt by the mind to protect an individual from the pain of loss. A spouse may make new, repeated attempts at romancing their partner in an unconscious attempt to prove that the threat of divorce is not serious. Children may observe brief moments of amicability as signs that the divorce was never real. Some may even tune out unhealthy behavior, focusing only on the relationship's positive aspects as signs that divorce is not a serious consideration.
AngerAny member of a family that is affected by divorce may feel personally affronted and blame others. Anger is a common response when faced with significant decisions in which a person has little or no perceived input and will have a potentially negative effect. These circumstances often generate feelings of helplessness, which can fuel an individual's anger.
BargainingAn individual will attempt to make a deal to change the situation. In general situations involving grief, this stage often involves a bargain with God. Bargaining is not a prevalent stage in all occurrences of grief, but is listed on Stages-of-Grief-Recovery.com as a common stage in divorce. While divorce-related grief can involve an appeal to a higher power, bargaining is often prevalent in promises by one spouse to change the behavior and habits, or by children changing their behavior in hopes that the parents will reward them by staying together.
GuiltThe Springboard Group lists guilt on the Launching New Lives website as a feeling that one did not do enough to prevent a loss. During this stage, affected individuals begin to examine ways in which the divorce is directly attributable to their actions. Children may blame stress caused by their behavior or performance at school. A spouse may recall ways in which they could have made their partner happier, avoided arguments or made greater contributions to the marriage and the family. Stages-of-Grief-Recovery.com notes that this stage is often accompanied by the unattainable wish to turn back the clock and do things differently, fueled by the griever's sense of regret and self-blame.
DepressionThe state of chronic, debilitating sadness is a common and natural reaction to loss. This stage of grief can manifest most notably in teenagers affected by their parents' divorce, as the physical and hormonal changes they experience during puberty leave them more susceptible to depression than adults. Depression can also manifest as a constant state of reflection on times when the marriage was happier and divorce was not imminent, according to the Springboard Group.
Acceptance and Hope
Coming to terms with the reality of a divorce will bring the affected family members to a realization that their lives have been changed in significant, unalterable ways and that things will never be the same again, but that life will go on and they have hope of finding happiness in other ways.
Read more: The Seven Stages Of Grief For Divorce | LIVESTRONG.COM
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Actually I think she is still in denial. That is why she is using the same old processes that worked in the past. She could always get one of us to cave in and talk to the others that she had had enough and the cycle would begin again.
As for the suicide threats, I've been through that before. I have now come to the conclusion that it is her life to do with want she wants. I know that sounds cold but I am no longer taking part in the drama that is her life. It will play out as she and her HP script it.
As for the suicide threats, I've been through that before. I have now come to the conclusion that it is her life to do with want she wants. I know that sounds cold but I am no longer taking part in the drama that is her life. It will play out as she and her HP script it.
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Oh, tjp, thanks for posting that. Looking at it honestly I think I am at acceptance and hope. Only the fear of change is keeping me from moving faster but I am plodding along, one step at a time.
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My mother is an alcoholic, she is a world record holder, been drinking daily for over 65 years and has been abusing the family the entire time. She has never been in recovery, and is a master manipulator.
One thing that jumps out to me in her most recent communication is "I can't stand to be alone", my mother is the same way, her BF (sounds dumb when your 85) of 21 years died two weeks ago, she is crawling in the bottle big time (mixing w anti depressents), she is trying to manipulate my brother into moving in with her, the tears are flowing (she can turn them on and off at will) she is playing every card in her deck...it is not working...now she is pissed, just called me this morning, drunk and being abusive. I hung up on her.
This has become a power struggle, we want her to go into long term in patient rehab. My brother and I are totally on the same page, we will not budge, we have had enough.
One thing I will say, they are very persistant. They want their way and that's it.
I know it is difficult, however, for whats it's worth, I think you are doing the right thing.
One thing that jumps out to me in her most recent communication is "I can't stand to be alone", my mother is the same way, her BF (sounds dumb when your 85) of 21 years died two weeks ago, she is crawling in the bottle big time (mixing w anti depressents), she is trying to manipulate my brother into moving in with her, the tears are flowing (she can turn them on and off at will) she is playing every card in her deck...it is not working...now she is pissed, just called me this morning, drunk and being abusive. I hung up on her.
This has become a power struggle, we want her to go into long term in patient rehab. My brother and I are totally on the same page, we will not budge, we have had enough.
One thing I will say, they are very persistant. They want their way and that's it.
I know it is difficult, however, for whats it's worth, I think you are doing the right thing.
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Originally Posted by CKN
She has been manipulating this "recovery" from the beginning, I don't want to watch her destroy herself anymore. More importantly, I don't want my kids to see her destroy herself.
It is a list of things they do, not a list of things I need. So I eventually came to refuse to provide any list of actions at all. I simply say "This is my decision for now." No further explanation required. The explaination leads to nothing but circular crazy making discussions IME.
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From Stranger In A Strange Land:
I grok people. I am people… so now I can say it in people talk. I've found out why people laugh. They laugh because it hurts so much… because it's the only thing that'll make it stop hurting.
I had thought — I had been told — that a 'funny' thing is a thing of a goodness. It isn't. Not ever is it funny to the person it happens to. Like that sheriff without his pants. The goodness is in the laughing itself. I grok it is a bravery . . . and a sharing… against pain and sorrow and defeat.
A really good book. A lot of what is says applies to what I am going through right now. I'm going to have to re-read it.
This also lets you know my background and where I am coming from with this thread.
I feel I have be consistent in here in my thoughts, words and actions.
Your friend,
I grok people. I am people… so now I can say it in people talk. I've found out why people laugh. They laugh because it hurts so much… because it's the only thing that'll make it stop hurting.
I had thought — I had been told — that a 'funny' thing is a thing of a goodness. It isn't. Not ever is it funny to the person it happens to. Like that sheriff without his pants. The goodness is in the laughing itself. I grok it is a bravery . . . and a sharing… against pain and sorrow and defeat.
This also lets you know my background and where I am coming from with this thread.
I feel I have be consistent in here in my thoughts, words and actions.
Your friend,
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Hey Mike,
Just wanted to be sure my message didn't come off as I think it might have... I wasn't suggesting in any way that you should feel bad for her, feel you should help, feel for the fact she is hurting.
I agree 200% with those who've wisely pointed out that if she uses the tools of recovery and wants it sincerely, that's the path to coming out of pain.
I think that I might not have been clear and certainly did not want you to think I was suggesting you go back to codie-ville!
You're a great model of detachment and strength-- your thread has helped me a lot in my own life!
Just wanted to be sure my message didn't come off as I think it might have... I wasn't suggesting in any way that you should feel bad for her, feel you should help, feel for the fact she is hurting.
I agree 200% with those who've wisely pointed out that if she uses the tools of recovery and wants it sincerely, that's the path to coming out of pain.
I think that I might not have been clear and certainly did not want you to think I was suggesting you go back to codie-ville!
You're a great model of detachment and strength-- your thread has helped me a lot in my own life!
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Originally Posted by wanttobehealthy
Hey Mike,
Just wanted to be sure my message didn't come off as I think it might have... I wasn't suggesting in any way that you should feel bad for her, feel you should help, feel for the fact she is hurting.
I agree 200% with those who've wisely pointed out that if she uses the tools of recovery and wants it sincerely, that's the path to coming out of pain.
I think that I might not have been clear and certainly did not want you to think I was suggesting you go back to codie-ville!
You're a great model of detachment and strength-- your thread has helped me a lot in my own life!
Just wanted to be sure my message didn't come off as I think it might have... I wasn't suggesting in any way that you should feel bad for her, feel you should help, feel for the fact she is hurting.
I agree 200% with those who've wisely pointed out that if she uses the tools of recovery and wants it sincerely, that's the path to coming out of pain.
I think that I might not have been clear and certainly did not want you to think I was suggesting you go back to codie-ville!
You're a great model of detachment and strength-- your thread has helped me a lot in my own life!
Laughter is a tool of healing but it can also be used as a form of denial as Shell pointed out.
So, thank you for helping me keep honest with myself.
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