NYC_Chick

P.s. Nice guys do exist in NYC. I seem to have found one my age. The key with us... No pressure. We both want to get married and have kids. It's not sn elephant in the room all the time. I have decided that if I'm ready and he is not, I will go. No pressure. No hard feelings. I have learned a ton by being with him, so no regrets if we don't work out.

JessicaNAJ

I'm sorry if this sounds blunt...but I hear some manipulation on your part. Trust me! I did the exact same thing! I got married and convinced my alcoholic it was the best thing for everyone (health insurance, etc) I told him I wouldn't have sex with him if he was drinking (I could go on and on!)...now I realize (5 years after I started this road to MY recovery) that this was me trying to control and manipulate to get what I want. What about what he wanted? I guess it didn't matter b/c I always knew what was best. Guess what? I always got what I wanted, but guess what else? I was never really happy.

Sweetie, by being platonic until you discuss marriage ??? well of course he's going to think about it! What man could be around a beautiful woman and not want to have sex. Now he says he don't think you should be seeing each other at all....listen to what he wants. If it doesn't match what you want or if you don't think you can meet somewhere in the middle....then it might just be time for you to really think if he is the one who will meet ALL your needs.

alanonicnov2008

It's so true...I've started no contact already (day 1). I blocked his emails. Wish I could block the phone but he tends to email before calling.

Why do I keep finding these guys who pay lip service to that and then really balk at the idea? I suppose it could be my age and the amount of pressure I feel. But it's not like I'm not really clear about my goals. I dated one other (recovering A) who did actually break it off with me when I told him my situ, and I'm so grateful he did that. He knew he wasn't up for it...and he bailed. He knows that dating a woman who is single and childless between the ages of 39-45 or so is hard and he chose not to. At the time he seemed selfish to me but now I see that it was the opposite.

I've been thinking of moving upstate for awhile. I work up there. I could take a break from the city, live in a smaller community for awhile. It would probably do me good...and I might actually be able to afford to do the kid thing on my own up there.

alanonicnov2008

It doesn't.

For me the no sex thing really is about being hurt. I have had very few partners. I don't take it lightly. It's not just with him, I really don't think I can be in an intimate relationship without clear, very clear signs that marriage is possible. It would have to be more than words, because I've heard a lot of words (I used to believe the words).

I think making a choice to be chaste is very personal and it's valid, you just need to find the person who is willing to move the relationship to where it needs to be.

Also, it would have been different if he hadn't said some of the (abusive) things he has said about me regarding marriage. He has told me more than once that he wouldn't marry me because I'm the wrong person, not what he wants, etc. Me not wanting to sleep with him is saying that I respect myself.

It's not always about manipulating, for me it's about setting a boundary.

NYC_Chick

I will tell you some things I know you don't want to hear, but they helped me, so I will share them with you.

The first is, men can smell "desperation." I hate to be blunt, but it's the honest to God truth. It scares them. My new boyfriend and I don't spend a lot of time talking about our ex's but we've had some pretty candid conversations. Regarding his ex, she was a year older than him. She told him on the first date that he had six months to figure out if she was it because her clock was ticking and she did not want to waste time. Fair enough; however, there was not time to really enjoy the relationship because he was too busy focusing on whether or not she had the qualities he was looking for in a future wife. Needless to say, the relationship did not work out. He has told me several times that he appreciates that we are taking out time and enjoying our relationship. He lets me in a little more each time we see each other. We're happy right now. If that changes, then I know where the door is. So does he.

Now, I will also admit I pressured my xabf to death about getting married. We then planned the wedding, then he told me he was drinking a pint of whiskey a night for at least 3 years behind my back. Oddly, I was still willing to marry him. Why? Because I had already put in so much time. 3.5 years, to be exact. What I have learned since is that if you make a bad investment, you should cut your losses and run. Throwing good time after bad gets you more of the same.

The bigger part of all of this is that you have to be happy with you. And I mean really happy. I can tell you that most of the reason I was so focused on getting married and having children is because there was something missing in me that I thought that would fill right then. It was almost like if xabf married me, it meant he really loved me despite the fact that his actions said otherwise. Also, the baby. Well, that, I have always felt was my destiny. I still feel it is, but I think God will give me the baby I am meant to have when I am meant to have it. I admit to my own times of panic, but those are few and far between. Generally, I am at a great place in my life. I'm happy. There are a few things I would tweak, but nothing major. What I have now is part of my journey.

Another part of me pick ing bad people has to do with my alcoholic father. I was constantly abandoned by him, so in relationships, I picked people that would do the same, whether with drugs or alcohol. I went about trying to change them. Who I needed to change was me. I did and found someone I think is pretty amazing. Who knows where it will go, but it's very good now.

Good luck in your journey!

Jadmack25

Originally Posted by alanonicnov2008
... I have a goal of getting married and having a family, but for whatever reason he is frustrating that goal.

....but he's not sincere (and he's abusive to boot).

You can have all the goals you want, but unless folks who need to participate actually do so, your goals stay as your goals.
As for him being insincere and abusive....why would you want someone you know has these defects of character, to father your children?

I smiled at you being a bit worried about age and fertility, as I know a lot of my kids friends are only getting round to having babies now, and these girls are in their 40's.

Don't know where you have been looking for your partner up to now, but maybe a change of plan and location, will have you meeting men who are more into what you really want.

Give him the flick, go NC and re-arrange your man antenna to Normal.

God bless

JessicaNAJ

I want to apologize if I came across a little strong. Your post reminded me sooo much of my situation with me and my exAH and I that is why I reacted so strongly. Instead of offering my advice or thoughts, I should have simply shared my experience. So, while I can't recant my post, I will share some bits of my past experience with my exAH.

I came up with 100 reasons why it "made sense" that him and I get married, when he really never wanted to, after 8 years and a child later, we got married.

I was taken advantage of (raped) by my exAH when he was drunk - more than once. Sex with him became unenjoyable. I "set a boundary" that I would not have sex with him when he was drunk because of that reason and many other reasons. He was so convincing that I was overreacting to what had happend, that I honestly began to think there was something wrong with me. (We had been together a total of 14 years..I think). But I continued to hold my boundary and did just that until the day he move out.

IN MY SITUATION, I can now see how my actions and the boundaries I set were a form of my manipulation and my attempt to control his drinking. Back then though, it saw it as me protecting myself.

alanonicnov2008

Wow what a bunch of Al Anons.

I'm 39 and I've been around the block and I am far from desperate...I'm not broke, I have friends, I work a strong program, and I booted my alcoholic ex because we didn't want the same things.

If I were desperate I would have stayed, or tried to get pregnant. I don't necessarily need to have kids. I have a full life. I just don't want to stay in a go nowhere relationship. In other words, I don't really care what a guy can sense...I'm not desperate enough to care!

As for having a family...for me personally...there is no point to staying in a dead end relationship. I'm looking for a partner. If making that clear and finally booting my boyfriend 2 years later is desperate, or manipulative, so be it. I have my own goals. I don't see pursuing my goals as a form of control. They are my goals. I gave it a good shot for 2 years, never once held a gun to his head about getting married, it came up because I felt he wasn't marriage material and I felt used.

I rarely bring up marriage at all when dating, unless the guy seems to be cagey, and then I might bring it up to make sure I don't waste my time. Yes it has started to come up in the past year because we have been seeing each other since 2008!

You were protecting yourself by forcing your bf to marry you?

Guys. I'm sorry to call you on your al anonic "it's all about me" stuff, but have you read my original post? Did I trick him into marrying me? No. Did I call him on his behavior of saying we have a future together and then not delivering? Yes! Was he drinking? No.

Do I want to keep being a sex toy of someone who has told me flat out he doesn't want to marry me? Are you suggesting that this would have been the "nonmanipulative" thing to do?

In my 'hood, they call that getting respe't!.

Thanks Jadmack. That was the pep talk I really needed!

I'm thinking a change of scenery too...I've definitely changed the interpersonal landscape...and I've definitely branched out in my interests and returned a bit to my old interests (sports and music). Honestly, as long as I'm participating in life I don't care if I find a man...I just don't want to be lied to anymore, or manipulated with false hopes.

NYC_Chick

I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. You said you were very clear about wanting a family with the men you have been with. Jmho, but this is scary to men. You don't want to be a sex toy. They don't want to be trapped. They want to find the right person too. Reading your post, it seems you are willing to settle for less than as long as you get married and have kids. You admit you would not necessarily pick this guy, but if he was willing, well you would settle. Desperate sounds like a fitting word. I'm a professional with a great career, great friends, financial security and I travel a lot. That does not mean I do not sometimes feel panicked about kids and marriage.

So, why would you settle if there was not some part of you that feels desperate about children?

As a side note...I don't attend alanon. Last time I checked alanon did not have the market cornered on focusing on yourself to create a better life. Again, best of luck to you!

stilllearning

Hi Alononic,

I did a double take yesterday when I read your first post - mostly because I remember relating so completely early this year when you were posting about your ex. The narcissism, the porn, the trying to making you feel "less than" - and I remember reading a post about butterflies and cocoons or something that was incredibly dark and made the hair on my neck stand on end.

I took heart from your posts at a point when I was really only just starting to see the big picture with my own ex - you had a gift for really cutting to the core of some of your ex's behaviors and there were a lot of parallels with my own ex.

Soooo (and yes, I am part of the bunch of alononics here ...) I guess my question is - why are you talking about this man, who you now want to marry, having had enough time to see who you are? You've had enough time, too - and you were pretty much describing a monster in Feb/March of this year.

What has changed enough that you want to pursue a relationship with him again? HOw did you go from posting that you wish you'd gotten out sooner a few months ago to being frustrated that he's unwilling to make a commitment that would see you promising to spend the rest of your life with him?

We can analyse the pros and cons and ups and downs of his unwillingness to commit - but what has happened, for you, that you've had a 180 degree turnaround in your willingness to have this man back in your life again? I ask that question without judgement. Do you feel like the relationship could ever be healthy and fulfilling? It wasn't when you broke up and it doesn't sound like the last month has been great - so what's in there that -you- want to commit to.

SL

alanonicnov2008

[QUOTE]What has changed enough that you want to pursue a relationship with him again? HOw did you go from posting that you wish you'd gotten out sooner a few months ago to being frustrated that he's unwilling to make a commitment that would see you promising to spend the rest of your life with him?[/QUOTE

Well, it hasn't been black and white fo me...he's in program (as am I) and he has changed a lot...the butterfly story was from when he wasn't sober, 5 or so years ago. He had been reading the SLAA literature and told me he was seeing things differently. He has changed a lot, and the time off gave him some new awarenesses. It did feel very different (at first).

Also he has completely changed his work...motivated I think somewhat by what happened with us, he's not shooting on the same projects, that changed my comfort level.

But, as I said resuming 4 months out brought up old patterns...and the main pattern we have is the character of the relationship does not fit a normal relationship with a normal courtship, and that's my frustration...for me the litmus test for the health of a relationship *is* the ability to commit. We failed the litmus test. I wasn't looking for him to get married today, I was looking for a clear sign that the relationship *could* be one that could lead to commitment. i.e., after two years it's something both parties think they might want.

When someone starts throwing out the marriage/kids things on Tuesday (did not come from me) but then by Thursday is saying that we shouldn't even be in a relationship...this isn't your average commitmentphobe.

In SLAA, in my experience, the early recovery is difficult because you become healthier and you begin to see your part, and you think that it can be fixed...because you do really become much healthier...but for me it's very difficult not to succumb to the fantasy of a relationship that can work out...that's my struggle.

If all men are scared about the prospect of sharing a life with someone, truly I have to ask myself why I would be with men at all. Mind you, this *has* been my experience in NY...which is why I'm not fond of NY for dating (and I know you are from NY so...you are proving my point!).

I'm so not into "tricking" someone or any sort of manipulation of someone to get them to do something they think they don't want to do, which is why I choose to be direct and say what I want and watch the reaction in the beginning. Let me be clear, I was friends with this guy for a long time and he knew my goals as a friend, long before we started dating. When we started dating I had no interest in getting married but I did have an interest in not wasting my time, so I tried to determine if he was *capable* of making a commitment. A few pertinent questions were asked I believe a full year and a half after I met him along the lines of "do you ever want to get married" (again, he was married once before)? And, "do you want to have kids?" I was not barreling through with the marriage license as soon as we consummated the relationship.

I do think there are men out there who can handle, without fear, a woman who expresses that she wants to have a family, even from the beginning. My best friend from college found a guy like that. *He* brought up marriage. *He* wanted to have kids. He asked her if she wanted to have kids in the first month of their dating. It's not typical (for NY) but it happens (rarely).

I think you might be generalizing also because you don't know my story...but if you read my earlier posts as Stilllearning said...it's not just your typical boy meets girl story...this relationship was highly addictive. It's about much more than just what you say is a normal panic at getting married that men have...this is a relationship that *started out* with a restraining order. The fact that we even got as far as we did is kind of a miracle...but 2 years out and he's still so focused on the sex and confused about commitment, it's not surprising at all...but I don't have time and it's not just because he's a normal guy (and I'm not your average woman).

I admit that it was my *fantasy* that we could have a normal relationship, and it's good to be reminded. It's letting go of the fantasy that is really hard for me, because he was willing to participate in the fantasy with me in order to get what he was interested in (sex).

Stilllearning thanks for reminding me of my own words. My diseases of love addiction, and my codependency, are truly baffling. I know many of my friends are in disbelief that I would even talk to this person....the slipup started on his birthday when I made contact...and also right about that time a good friend I was spending a lot of time with stopped calling and I was feeling bad about that...that's how it started. And it snowballed into wishful thinking...and then fantasy kicked in fed by how interested he seemed in making changes...

PieRat

I am not sure about the NY area, but there are good guys out there that want what you are talking about. Problem is sometimes we settle for whats right here and now, instead of being patient and getting whats right. Hopefully we learn then from our mistakes. Trust me I am talking from experience.

NYC_Chick

I see what you are saying, but if letting a relationship develop without pressure and seeing where things go without a ticking clock in the room is "tricking" someone, then sign me up. I have put on the pressure. It did not work. I am very much so letting this relationship develop without presure and it's working.

It's not about NYC, it's about picking the right people to begin with. Up until now, I didn't.

I should also add that it's not like we have never discussed thatwe want these things. We do and did just a couple of dates in, but I also made it clear that it was more important to me to find the right person first. No pressure.

Someone once told me that relationships are like sand. If it sits in the palm of your hand and you don't squeeze, it stays. If you do squeeze, it's all over the place. I'm letting mine sit.

Jazzman

This jumped right out at me and I wanted to bounce this off you.

First off it's very unlikely an addict will change for the sake of another person. No one person is that powerful to change another.

Second, try not to look at a possible partner as a project for you to change, find someone that is already what you want.

Third, with the ever increasing numbers of people starting a family later in life maybe you don't face such a tough challenge.

alanonicnov2008

It sounds like you've found a person to have a relationship with, that's great. I think if you are in a stable relationship that makes a lot of sense to do things that way.

I have not been as lucky. I have heard every line in the book...I have been lied to a lot and manipulated myself. I had to learn the hard way that when someone says they want the same things it doesn't mean a whole lot anymore, because words are words. I have to be shown in actions (efforts to stay connected, sober behavior, making an effort with friends and family, etc.). In the past I have let the words mean too much when the actions did not match, and that has been my failing.

I don't do that. I will hope a person will change, I will complain when they don't do things the way I would like, but I'm not a person to ask for anything or try to change someone. My issue is I can't get out of the relationship once I'm in it.

I don't think that's entirely true. I think people get ready to change, and then another person might really push them in that direction. I think it totally happens.

You might be right, but I'm afraid my wishful thinking in that area was squashed by my doctors. I was diagnosed with fertility issues when I was 30...in the words of my gyn, even at that point she was saying things like "it could happen". I had slightly better news from my fert doctor after some tests, but when I was 34 he said that he wouldn't even treat me after 38. I'm seeing him next week (I'm 39 on July 4!) about egg freezing.

That is some, maybe a lot, of the pressure too. I know that this becomes very very unlikely. Add to this that my brother can't have kids, you know, forget about the pressure on someone else, the pressure on me is enormous.

Now, before someone chimes in with the pat "don't put pressure on yourself" statement, guys, I know! I have taken that pressure off myself by building a relationship with my higher power and understanding that having kids does not happen for all...my main focus, right here, right now, is to get into healthier, commitment-oriented relationships that make me feel good and happy!

Tally

Why do you want to marry him and have kids with him if he's an alcoholic, abusive, uncaring and doesn't share the same goals?

Rather than focusing on wanting babies and weddings, I'd be wanting to focus on why I keep dating alcoholic men who don't want the same things as me.

alanonicnov2008

What I mean is...(I am a happy person people!)...I don't want to be in any more relationships that make me unhappy and miserable.

Yes I have seen it in my own life, with myself, my boyfriend (with his drinking for example), and friends. My best friends brother stopped drinking and womanizing because he saw it was hurting his relationship. People don't change for people alone, but they can change with the added impetus and help, I really believe that.

I don't set out to change people though, I only set out to change myself. I know what I need to change folks, it's not what I was asking about.

I was just looking for a little sympathy.

Have you read *any* of my posts? Did I ever say that I was staying in a relationship with someone who didn't want the same thing as me? The whole point was I was looking for support to leave the relationship or just to vent really. As for wanting babies, that was a low blow. I have not spent any of my life focusing on that. I'm practically infertile. Please, do some research before you spout.

Guys, I'm signing off. Thread over and done, I'm clearly triggering some folks here and it's getting boring.

Have a good one.

JessicaNAJ

Pretty much...yep! that's exactly what I was doing. I was 23/24, we had a child that was a year and half, he was actively drinking and since we were living together and sharing all of our expenses it (at the time) thought it only made sense to get married so he'd be able to use my health insurance...in the case that he might ever get sick or hurt. I was protecting myself from the expense of any hospital bills, etc. Plus, if we got married, I could add him to my car insurance, life insurance, etc. yes....I was young and naive.

What I meant in my post when I said about the "protecting myself", I was referring more to the sex thing.

Tally

Ooook then :s