My.long.list.of.you.must.change...
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
My.long.list.of.you.must.change...
This is inspired by the controlling/bullying post, but I realize I had more to say, so it ended up as a new thread. 
I feel like part of what I get hung up on is that he SAYS he wants to quit, or says he has quit, or that he doesn't want to be "that way," so I get hung up on his desire to be different and I want that with him. But whether he says that or not, he's not doing anything to change, so in reality, he must not want it that badly.
I say that part of my problem is that he is so covert about it all. If he would just be "vulnerable" and show his real self to me...
My sister asked me, "If he were to sit down at breakfast tomorrow with a 40 and a cigarette, would you be happy then?
I said no.
"Then you don't just want him to be open. You want him to:
1. change his openness level and communicate (although you know it makes him uncomfortable)
- about addiction - alcohol, cigarettes, porn, shopping, etc.
- about depression
- about your sex life
- about money
- about past relationships
- about problems in the relationship AND
2. change his behavior and
- stop drinking
- stop smoking
- stop addictive shopping
- stop lying
- stop moping
- stop hiding all sorts of things
- stop acting snotty/unkind
- stop acting/talking like the person he thinks you want him to be instead of who he truly is
- start taking responsibility when he makes a mistake AND
3. get help for his depression and addictions (which would entail admitting to a professional and a stranger his weaknesses and being held accountable)
Do you really think anyone can just whip that all into shape? Or would want to tackle it all? Or that he wants to change at all? Look at your massive list!! It's fine for YOU not to like it, but its also fine for him to NOT change all those things. It's also fine for you not to want to be with someone who doesn't want to change. Don't get hung up on if he says he wants to change 'cuz he also wants to please you. Respect him as is."
She's a smart one, that sister 'o mine.
And I look at that list and say, "Wow. I thought I had the perfect man. I was in fantasyland! I AM waiting/hoping/bullying/guilting for him to change all that. I don't want to accept it, that's for sure!
My sister and I did talk about communication and that her rule is - if her husband is cranky, let's say, about some issue he has with his family, he doesn't have to deconstruct it with her if he doesn't want to, but its not acceptable for him to take out his upset on her or the kids. He has to keep it to himself. I thought that was reasonable. I do think I might want too much regarding sharing of feelings. But complete shut out (what I have now) I know is beyond accepting.
The deep part is I know I chose him (and have chosen similarly nice and emotionally disconnected-to-themselves men in the past). I think its because I like to control and so if I pick men that don't push ME to look at/change stuff I don't want to, then I get to control how much self work I do. So nothing gets "fixed" by leaving one that doesn't share (although I see on the list other reasons not to stay) because I haven't figured that whole piece out.
The other thing my sister noticed is my upset around talking about his deception. How raw I feel not knowing *who he really is*. How scared I feel that something worse might show up because I don't know. I realize I have chosen that, too. It takes me back to a former BF who up and left at our 1 year anniversary saying he didn't love me and never had. I was SO SO shocked. So confused how I could have not known how he was feeling. Pretty sure he DID love me and was scared, but not totally sure...
And now with my AH, I realize I saw signs for all of this before, but never looked. So it is my SELF deception that is most scary. I don't see it when its happening!! And if you are deceiving yourself, how can you be safe?? And leaving him won't rid me of that either - deceiving myself nor choosing partners that will deceive me. Heavy.
Hugs,
Wife
I feel like part of what I get hung up on is that he SAYS he wants to quit, or says he has quit, or that he doesn't want to be "that way," so I get hung up on his desire to be different and I want that with him. But whether he says that or not, he's not doing anything to change, so in reality, he must not want it that badly.
I say that part of my problem is that he is so covert about it all. If he would just be "vulnerable" and show his real self to me...
My sister asked me, "If he were to sit down at breakfast tomorrow with a 40 and a cigarette, would you be happy then?
I said no.
"Then you don't just want him to be open. You want him to:
1. change his openness level and communicate (although you know it makes him uncomfortable)
- about addiction - alcohol, cigarettes, porn, shopping, etc.
- about depression
- about your sex life
- about money
- about past relationships
- about problems in the relationship AND
2. change his behavior and
- stop drinking
- stop smoking
- stop addictive shopping
- stop lying
- stop moping
- stop hiding all sorts of things
- stop acting snotty/unkind
- stop acting/talking like the person he thinks you want him to be instead of who he truly is
- start taking responsibility when he makes a mistake AND
3. get help for his depression and addictions (which would entail admitting to a professional and a stranger his weaknesses and being held accountable)
Do you really think anyone can just whip that all into shape? Or would want to tackle it all? Or that he wants to change at all? Look at your massive list!! It's fine for YOU not to like it, but its also fine for him to NOT change all those things. It's also fine for you not to want to be with someone who doesn't want to change. Don't get hung up on if he says he wants to change 'cuz he also wants to please you. Respect him as is."
She's a smart one, that sister 'o mine.
And I look at that list and say, "Wow. I thought I had the perfect man. I was in fantasyland! I AM waiting/hoping/bullying/guilting for him to change all that. I don't want to accept it, that's for sure!
My sister and I did talk about communication and that her rule is - if her husband is cranky, let's say, about some issue he has with his family, he doesn't have to deconstruct it with her if he doesn't want to, but its not acceptable for him to take out his upset on her or the kids. He has to keep it to himself. I thought that was reasonable. I do think I might want too much regarding sharing of feelings. But complete shut out (what I have now) I know is beyond accepting.
The deep part is I know I chose him (and have chosen similarly nice and emotionally disconnected-to-themselves men in the past). I think its because I like to control and so if I pick men that don't push ME to look at/change stuff I don't want to, then I get to control how much self work I do. So nothing gets "fixed" by leaving one that doesn't share (although I see on the list other reasons not to stay) because I haven't figured that whole piece out.
The other thing my sister noticed is my upset around talking about his deception. How raw I feel not knowing *who he really is*. How scared I feel that something worse might show up because I don't know. I realize I have chosen that, too. It takes me back to a former BF who up and left at our 1 year anniversary saying he didn't love me and never had. I was SO SO shocked. So confused how I could have not known how he was feeling. Pretty sure he DID love me and was scared, but not totally sure...
And now with my AH, I realize I saw signs for all of this before, but never looked. So it is my SELF deception that is most scary. I don't see it when its happening!! And if you are deceiving yourself, how can you be safe?? And leaving him won't rid me of that either - deceiving myself nor choosing partners that will deceive me. Heavy.
Hugs,
Wife
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
Wow what a great conversation you had with your sister and you were able to see the extreme nature of how many things in your AH you are dissatisfied with. I mean that is a big list!!
It reminded me of when my mom said to me during my divorce:
"Time to put down the magnifying glass and look in the mirror."
OUCH. But right on. Absolutely right on. I needed the help of a weekly therapy appt. to keep the focus on me and my 100% responsibility for 50% of the problems in the marriage. Not easy. But worth it.
peace-
b
It reminded me of when my mom said to me during my divorce:
"Time to put down the magnifying glass and look in the mirror."
OUCH. But right on. Absolutely right on. I needed the help of a weekly therapy appt. to keep the focus on me and my 100% responsibility for 50% of the problems in the marriage. Not easy. But worth it.
peace-
b
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
You do indeed have a wise sister.
I remember early on in therapy, when we were trying couples counseling, the therapist asked each of us what we wanted from the other. My answer was that I wanted to be able to count on him, to trust him, for him to be my safe "port in a storm."
She listened patiently to all I wanted from him, and when I was done listing it all, she said the thing she hoped to accomplish with me was to help me see that it is not about trusting him, it's about trusting me.
At that point, I didn't have a clue what she meant. Over time, I have learned that she was exactly right. For me, this has meant many things such as knowing what is acceptable to me and what isn't. Trusting my gut even when I don't want to believe it. Knowing that I am/will be okay no matter who is or isn't in my life. Making choices with confidence and knowing at the same time that if I want to, I can change my mind. The list goes on, but you get the point.
It's about trusting yourself.
L
I remember early on in therapy, when we were trying couples counseling, the therapist asked each of us what we wanted from the other. My answer was that I wanted to be able to count on him, to trust him, for him to be my safe "port in a storm."
She listened patiently to all I wanted from him, and when I was done listing it all, she said the thing she hoped to accomplish with me was to help me see that it is not about trusting him, it's about trusting me.
At that point, I didn't have a clue what she meant. Over time, I have learned that she was exactly right. For me, this has meant many things such as knowing what is acceptable to me and what isn't. Trusting my gut even when I don't want to believe it. Knowing that I am/will be okay no matter who is or isn't in my life. Making choices with confidence and knowing at the same time that if I want to, I can change my mind. The list goes on, but you get the point.
It's about trusting yourself.
L
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
from LTD: Knowing that I am/will be okay no matter who is or isn't in my life. Making choices with confidence and knowing at the same time that if I want to, I can change my mind.
Yes!
We can't get the Thank You button back quick enough! Thank You LTD.
b.
Yes!
We can't get the Thank You button back quick enough! Thank You LTD.
b.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 86
This is a long list, but not insurmountable for recovery. He needs to tackle the alcohol first. He may then feel better about himself and the depression may go away, along with some other problem behaviours like lying. Then he may be able to work on normal issues such as communication- his skills in this area will have atrophied due to the drinking.
Where I disagree with your sister is that I don't think the alcoholic death trip is a journey freely chosen. He may not be able to jump of that train, and you might not want to watch him stay on that train, but it's not OK for him to be on it.
Where I disagree with your sister is that I don't think the alcoholic death trip is a journey freely chosen. He may not be able to jump of that train, and you might not want to watch him stay on that train, but it's not OK for him to be on it.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: rural west
Posts: 1,375
hps - of course he could recover...if he wanted to. But he doesn't. That's the point. And as far as "is it okay"...the point of that is HE gets to decide what is and isn't okay for him. I don't. I can decide if being with him is okay.
Bernadette and LaTee, I love you both tremendously and you are some of the wise, wise women on this board.
Thank you both. The mirror is out, for sure. First therapy appointment is next week Wednesday! Woohoo!
Bernadette and LaTee, I love you both tremendously and you are some of the wise, wise women on this board.
Thank you both. The mirror is out, for sure. First therapy appointment is next week Wednesday! Woohoo!
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