He IS changing, but I seem to be frozen inside
Guest
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: WIsconsin
Posts: 6
He IS changing, but I seem to be frozen inside
Hello All. I am new to this site. I am living with a sincerely struggling AH, kind man at heart, regretful of what he's done in the past. He's working very hard at changing.
The problem is I'm not sure what's left of ME. Please bear with me; this is long...
I met my AH husband when I was 21 and he 23 in 1983. I'm not sure I loved him even then, although I liked him. He quit drinking after he was "scared straight" by an DUI in 1988. Quit for 10 years. He still wasn't truly pleasant to live with (angry, black & white thinker, quick to label people, high-movement person concerned with his own productivity, lousy listener--everything you say he'd turn around and start talking about himself, thinking he was being helpful). He never criticized me--I've said that he didn't think about me enough to spend time criticizing me. This is a guy where I could leave my journal sitting on the kitchen table and he'd never even think to pick it up. He put me on a pedestal and gave me compliments, but if I was down/struggling I had to handle it myself. (If I tried to share he'd say he didn't know what to tell me, and would walk away.) He wasn't someone I really connected with. I stayed because I couldn't bring myself to do that damage to someone who seemed a relatively decent person. At least I think that's why I stayed. That, and I bought into the idea that the only one you can really change is yourself--and I extended that idea to mean I should always be open to change and looking to see what I could change in myself. I never managed to convince myself that I had tried hard enough to change my OWN ways.
He started to develop panic attacks, especially when I wanted to move to a new town in 2000. He is a pretty conservative pack rat and comfortable with routine; I like LESS stuff, change, challenge, and dream of traveling and wanted to try living in a new house/town. In 2001 he broke down and confessed to a sexual addiction and many "encounters" (NOT emotional affairs). I forgave. But as time went on, slowly but surely he got back on the merry-go-round of the daily 12-pack, and drinking/driving.
I'm a pretty independent person, happiest alone and outdoors, and I emotionally moved even further away from him. I love to take solo vacations (travel, camping. I've never been one to do things like count beer cans, wait up at night, etc.; I am more likely to throw up a wall and go my own way. But things got worse and worse and I still couldn't bring myself to leave. He was drunk 24/7, and getting a bit verbally mean (no physical violence. Ever). July of 2007 I FINALLY went to a lawyer and got some preliminary paperwork started. A part of me looked forward to finally truly putting on my "solo wings" and moving on with my life.
The following day he lost his job. I put the divorce papers (which he never knew about until later) on hold. He went through detox and came out angry. But as lead after lead fell through, he went through deep depression and finally went to AA. Got himself a job after 2 months. Has made many changes and did a lot of work: seeing change as opportunity rather than threat, acknowledging mistakes, going to counseling, working--with limited success--on being a better listener. His anger is mostly magically gone--since late 2007.
In the meantime I spent nearly 3 years (2006-late 08) being very ill due to unexpected side effects of a medication (now recovering). I have made my own extraordinary changes: turning to Vipassana meditation, striving towards acceptance of "what is", a rather Buddhist perspective. The book "Loving What is", and Al-Anon, have helped me let go of what I think should happen. Somewhat. But...
...I feel like a shell of a person. My lifelong introversion has become even more pronounced. I don't seem to connect with anyone at all, and have become even more comfortable with being alone. Through counseling we are both working on communication skills: Him learning to listen, me learning to show anger and be assertive rather than run away. I don't feel love. I don't miss him when he's not around; I find his nonstop noise/motion irritating when he is around. Our senses of humor don't match, our perspectives on life don't match. (I'm NPR. He's Fox News.) The more we work on this relationship, the more I wonder why. He loves me. I do know that. He gives me hugs and I hug back but inside stay frozen. I wish him well in his struggles but ...
Saturday over a week ago his latest addiction issues came to a head: Caffeine, overdieting and overexercising. He hadn't eaten all day, I later learned, and I was about ready to call an ambulance, he was so delirious. Finally got him to eat something. But all the while I was amazed at how... cool I was, inside and outside. I just sat still and kept telling him: "You are not making sense. I will not talk to you until you eat something."
I feel like what I've done is truly succeeded in making myself turn it over and not stress over a particular outcome. But what I've also succeeded in doing is... making myself not care. I watch his struggles with distant eyes--I'm not cruel: I listen, I helped him understand how blood sugar issues can affect people and shared nutrition information. (I have a past history of an eating disorder, so I can relate.) But I sometimes feel like it doesn't really matter to me if he succeeds or keels over. That seems sad.
I don't know how true that really is. Yesterday I tried an exercise where I imagined him gone: his room empty (we have separate bedrooms), his constant TV gone. And I pictured things like walking past the new thermostadt he put in and realizing how many things I wouldn't know how to handle if he wasn't around. But I also know that without him, these things would be handled just fine--not ideally, perhaps, but life would be what it was and I would deal with it. And, frankly, during this exercise he was (again) making so much of his usual noise that my normally strong imagination was taxed trying to pretend he wasn't there... !
I think if he did keel over I would have terrible guilt feelings that I didn't appreciate him. (This point is what I was trying to explore with my imaginary exercise.) I also despise myself for not having the courage to leave when things WERE bad. I know I will not leave this struggling person now--out of a strong sense of loyalty and that it would be a crappy thing to do to him, I guess. Somewhere, within myself, I must want him around. Then why can I no longer feel/show it?
The main feeling I seem to have is sad resentment that I betrayed the life my soul apparently truly wanted in order to live within his conservative comfort zone.
I don't know who I am any more. I don't know who I want to strive to be. And I wonder about this deep coldness inside my heart.
(Geez. I'm glad this site doesn't have a word count limit. Or ...maybe it should!)
Thanks for listening. I feel crazy alone with all this. (Said the loner.)
The problem is I'm not sure what's left of ME. Please bear with me; this is long...
I met my AH husband when I was 21 and he 23 in 1983. I'm not sure I loved him even then, although I liked him. He quit drinking after he was "scared straight" by an DUI in 1988. Quit for 10 years. He still wasn't truly pleasant to live with (angry, black & white thinker, quick to label people, high-movement person concerned with his own productivity, lousy listener--everything you say he'd turn around and start talking about himself, thinking he was being helpful). He never criticized me--I've said that he didn't think about me enough to spend time criticizing me. This is a guy where I could leave my journal sitting on the kitchen table and he'd never even think to pick it up. He put me on a pedestal and gave me compliments, but if I was down/struggling I had to handle it myself. (If I tried to share he'd say he didn't know what to tell me, and would walk away.) He wasn't someone I really connected with. I stayed because I couldn't bring myself to do that damage to someone who seemed a relatively decent person. At least I think that's why I stayed. That, and I bought into the idea that the only one you can really change is yourself--and I extended that idea to mean I should always be open to change and looking to see what I could change in myself. I never managed to convince myself that I had tried hard enough to change my OWN ways.
He started to develop panic attacks, especially when I wanted to move to a new town in 2000. He is a pretty conservative pack rat and comfortable with routine; I like LESS stuff, change, challenge, and dream of traveling and wanted to try living in a new house/town. In 2001 he broke down and confessed to a sexual addiction and many "encounters" (NOT emotional affairs). I forgave. But as time went on, slowly but surely he got back on the merry-go-round of the daily 12-pack, and drinking/driving.
I'm a pretty independent person, happiest alone and outdoors, and I emotionally moved even further away from him. I love to take solo vacations (travel, camping. I've never been one to do things like count beer cans, wait up at night, etc.; I am more likely to throw up a wall and go my own way. But things got worse and worse and I still couldn't bring myself to leave. He was drunk 24/7, and getting a bit verbally mean (no physical violence. Ever). July of 2007 I FINALLY went to a lawyer and got some preliminary paperwork started. A part of me looked forward to finally truly putting on my "solo wings" and moving on with my life.
The following day he lost his job. I put the divorce papers (which he never knew about until later) on hold. He went through detox and came out angry. But as lead after lead fell through, he went through deep depression and finally went to AA. Got himself a job after 2 months. Has made many changes and did a lot of work: seeing change as opportunity rather than threat, acknowledging mistakes, going to counseling, working--with limited success--on being a better listener. His anger is mostly magically gone--since late 2007.
In the meantime I spent nearly 3 years (2006-late 08) being very ill due to unexpected side effects of a medication (now recovering). I have made my own extraordinary changes: turning to Vipassana meditation, striving towards acceptance of "what is", a rather Buddhist perspective. The book "Loving What is", and Al-Anon, have helped me let go of what I think should happen. Somewhat. But...
...I feel like a shell of a person. My lifelong introversion has become even more pronounced. I don't seem to connect with anyone at all, and have become even more comfortable with being alone. Through counseling we are both working on communication skills: Him learning to listen, me learning to show anger and be assertive rather than run away. I don't feel love. I don't miss him when he's not around; I find his nonstop noise/motion irritating when he is around. Our senses of humor don't match, our perspectives on life don't match. (I'm NPR. He's Fox News.) The more we work on this relationship, the more I wonder why. He loves me. I do know that. He gives me hugs and I hug back but inside stay frozen. I wish him well in his struggles but ...
Saturday over a week ago his latest addiction issues came to a head: Caffeine, overdieting and overexercising. He hadn't eaten all day, I later learned, and I was about ready to call an ambulance, he was so delirious. Finally got him to eat something. But all the while I was amazed at how... cool I was, inside and outside. I just sat still and kept telling him: "You are not making sense. I will not talk to you until you eat something."
I feel like what I've done is truly succeeded in making myself turn it over and not stress over a particular outcome. But what I've also succeeded in doing is... making myself not care. I watch his struggles with distant eyes--I'm not cruel: I listen, I helped him understand how blood sugar issues can affect people and shared nutrition information. (I have a past history of an eating disorder, so I can relate.) But I sometimes feel like it doesn't really matter to me if he succeeds or keels over. That seems sad.
I don't know how true that really is. Yesterday I tried an exercise where I imagined him gone: his room empty (we have separate bedrooms), his constant TV gone. And I pictured things like walking past the new thermostadt he put in and realizing how many things I wouldn't know how to handle if he wasn't around. But I also know that without him, these things would be handled just fine--not ideally, perhaps, but life would be what it was and I would deal with it. And, frankly, during this exercise he was (again) making so much of his usual noise that my normally strong imagination was taxed trying to pretend he wasn't there... !
I think if he did keel over I would have terrible guilt feelings that I didn't appreciate him. (This point is what I was trying to explore with my imaginary exercise.) I also despise myself for not having the courage to leave when things WERE bad. I know I will not leave this struggling person now--out of a strong sense of loyalty and that it would be a crappy thing to do to him, I guess. Somewhere, within myself, I must want him around. Then why can I no longer feel/show it?
The main feeling I seem to have is sad resentment that I betrayed the life my soul apparently truly wanted in order to live within his conservative comfort zone.
I don't know who I am any more. I don't know who I want to strive to be. And I wonder about this deep coldness inside my heart.
(Geez. I'm glad this site doesn't have a word count limit. Or ...maybe it should!)
Thanks for listening. I feel crazy alone with all this. (Said the loner.)
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
blue,
Welcome to SR. I'm really glad you found us.
And don't worry about the word count. None of US does
You and I appear to be similar: outdoor-oriented, open to change and challenge, buddhist, NPR, independent, introverted. So I'll go out on a limb and share some initial thoughts I had.
You do indeed appear to be frozen or "locked up" inside. But from your post, you appear to have been that way for a very long time. Through alcohol and no alcohol, through times when he was loyal and times when he wasn't. As an outsider, it appears as though you might be in state of detachment from what you need or want from the relationships in your life.
Do you have any expectations out of marriage at all? What is the purpose of marriage in your life? What function does it serve for you? Given the fact that it doesn't seem to bring you anything good, I wonder what your deep reason is for staying in it? Your statement about not leaving him while he's struggling matches your statement about not leaving him before....you equate this with some kind of loyalty, and you are willing to sacrifice years and years and years....for a man who, if you met him on the street today, you probably wouldn't even like.
Here's the purpose of marriage in mine, straight from my journal of last week. I chose marriage because it afforded me:
--A partner who deeply and actively appreciated my natural gifts and talents, and I his
--Someone who laughed at my jokes, and who made me laugh too (especially for therapeutic reasons)
--A confidante who would help me to process life's toxins and difficulties
--A warrior-partner who would stand with me and fight when necessary
--A mutual teacher relationship where he could teach me what he knew, and I could teach him what I knew
--A playmate with whom to share a few interests: good coffee, NPR, running, great films, the outdoors, music...
--...and conversely, a 'shadow partner' to explore life on my own, while he explores life on his own, coming together at the end of the day to compare what we learned
--A person I respected, admired, and was somewhat fascinated with, living in my own home where I didn't have to go far to hang out with him
If I could not have these things, I know that the cost/benefit ratio of marriage wouldn't be worth it. I know I'd be more happy being alone and getting these things piecemeal from other relationships.
But that wasn't always the case. I lived in deep denial of my own life's needs for many, many years. I lived out that Sinead O'Connor album title, "I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got." I settled for what I had, kept the status quo, followed my childhood programming that defined loyalty by how much I was willing to tolerate. I also had no role models for good relationships, and so on a very entrenched level I had no reason to seek anything better for myself. I just....existed in those relationships.
Just rambling now (see what I mean about word count?
) You mention couples counseling. Have you ever considered individual counseling to try to unlock the joys & possibilities you might have buried long ago, for safekeeping? Or are you (as I was) afraid of what you might find out?
Sorry to be so candid. I just found myself scratching my head, wondering why you don't just cut each other loose to really find happiness? I'm big on the happiness thing LOL
Pull up a chair, pour yourself a cup of coffee, and join us. There are a lot of interesting conversations to be had, lots of very good supportive people, and we all have a lot to learn from one another
:ghug
Welcome to SR. I'm really glad you found us.
And don't worry about the word count. None of US does
You and I appear to be similar: outdoor-oriented, open to change and challenge, buddhist, NPR, independent, introverted. So I'll go out on a limb and share some initial thoughts I had.
You do indeed appear to be frozen or "locked up" inside. But from your post, you appear to have been that way for a very long time. Through alcohol and no alcohol, through times when he was loyal and times when he wasn't. As an outsider, it appears as though you might be in state of detachment from what you need or want from the relationships in your life.
Do you have any expectations out of marriage at all? What is the purpose of marriage in your life? What function does it serve for you? Given the fact that it doesn't seem to bring you anything good, I wonder what your deep reason is for staying in it? Your statement about not leaving him while he's struggling matches your statement about not leaving him before....you equate this with some kind of loyalty, and you are willing to sacrifice years and years and years....for a man who, if you met him on the street today, you probably wouldn't even like.
Here's the purpose of marriage in mine, straight from my journal of last week. I chose marriage because it afforded me:
--A partner who deeply and actively appreciated my natural gifts and talents, and I his
--Someone who laughed at my jokes, and who made me laugh too (especially for therapeutic reasons)
--A confidante who would help me to process life's toxins and difficulties
--A warrior-partner who would stand with me and fight when necessary
--A mutual teacher relationship where he could teach me what he knew, and I could teach him what I knew
--A playmate with whom to share a few interests: good coffee, NPR, running, great films, the outdoors, music...
--...and conversely, a 'shadow partner' to explore life on my own, while he explores life on his own, coming together at the end of the day to compare what we learned
--A person I respected, admired, and was somewhat fascinated with, living in my own home where I didn't have to go far to hang out with him
If I could not have these things, I know that the cost/benefit ratio of marriage wouldn't be worth it. I know I'd be more happy being alone and getting these things piecemeal from other relationships.
But that wasn't always the case. I lived in deep denial of my own life's needs for many, many years. I lived out that Sinead O'Connor album title, "I Do Not Want What I Haven't Got." I settled for what I had, kept the status quo, followed my childhood programming that defined loyalty by how much I was willing to tolerate. I also had no role models for good relationships, and so on a very entrenched level I had no reason to seek anything better for myself. I just....existed in those relationships.
Just rambling now (see what I mean about word count?
) You mention couples counseling. Have you ever considered individual counseling to try to unlock the joys & possibilities you might have buried long ago, for safekeeping? Or are you (as I was) afraid of what you might find out?Sorry to be so candid. I just found myself scratching my head, wondering why you don't just cut each other loose to really find happiness? I'm big on the happiness thing LOL
Pull up a chair, pour yourself a cup of coffee, and join us. There are a lot of interesting conversations to be had, lots of very good supportive people, and we all have a lot to learn from one another
:ghug
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 902
Hi and Welcome:
I don't have any great advice for you, but wanted to say hang in there and send some prayers to you.
I can't tell you what to do, but what you are doing doesn't seem to be living, it's just existing. You're worth more than that, so live for you and let him figure out his own life.
If you feel bad for leaving, maybe try thinking of it this way...by staying you are also preventing him from finding his own happiness.
Hugs!
I don't have any great advice for you, but wanted to say hang in there and send some prayers to you.
I can't tell you what to do, but what you are doing doesn't seem to be living, it's just existing. You're worth more than that, so live for you and let him figure out his own life.
If you feel bad for leaving, maybe try thinking of it this way...by staying you are also preventing him from finding his own happiness.
Hugs!
1 Corinthians 13:1-13 love
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 435
We defininetly have different worldviews, but I relate to your history of experiences. However, my AH has never cheated on me or had sexual 'encounters.' It is one of the reasons i never went forward with divorce before recently, upon acknowledging that the progression of his drinking has also made for an abusive behavior.
I am just going to give my short thoughts otherwise i will have a book in response :-): Why stay married when he has had sexual 'encounters' multiple times that weren't with you and you presently aren't in the same room? Why feel guilty about divorce because now he is doing better? You seem to have separated yourself from him in spirit, with good reason, so what is left besides "he is dong better?"
If you want to continue to support him, because he is doing better, then why can't you do it divorced? It sounds as if your relationship is only platonic , and with that it sounds as if there is history there but no intimacy? So what is there to feel guilty about?
You said you don't know who you are anymore. This question is meant to help you examine this statement as it relates to you: Then why do you feel guilty? Who is the you that feels guilty? Is this guilty feeling person who you want to be?
note: I have no assumptions, i am asking these questions according to the story as you wrote it.
love tammy
I am just going to give my short thoughts otherwise i will have a book in response :-): Why stay married when he has had sexual 'encounters' multiple times that weren't with you and you presently aren't in the same room? Why feel guilty about divorce because now he is doing better? You seem to have separated yourself from him in spirit, with good reason, so what is left besides "he is dong better?"
If you want to continue to support him, because he is doing better, then why can't you do it divorced? It sounds as if your relationship is only platonic , and with that it sounds as if there is history there but no intimacy? So what is there to feel guilty about?
You said you don't know who you are anymore. This question is meant to help you examine this statement as it relates to you: Then why do you feel guilty? Who is the you that feels guilty? Is this guilty feeling person who you want to be?
note: I have no assumptions, i am asking these questions according to the story as you wrote it.
love tammy
Member
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 24
Hi. oh this post so resonates with me. Having found out that i was a co dependant to my partners alcoholism and read and read about what that might mean for me, i now understand why i feel so frozen on the inside. co -deps do get to a point where they quite naturaly detatch from their emotions as they become just to difficult to handle. i wonder if this is what has happened with you and now becuase you practice the medetative way of detatching on top of it, perhaps it's made it all the more for you.. not saying that this is whats happened, it's just a thought.
Another thing that a co dep would do. would be to stay in a relationship becuase they deep down truly believe that the other persons worl would colapse if they left and they really couldnt handle the guilt that that would mean for them. so they stay out of loyalty as they callit when really they stay becuase it is a way of controlling the situation and their partners for their own emotional needs. It's a way of coluding with the alcoholic to stop them standing on their own to feet and taking personal responsibility for themselves, in this way a co dept can feel validated in caring. it's finding comfortfor oneself in being a matry.. 'I must be a really good selfless person because im putting someone elses needs before my own@ kind of thing.... anyhow, thats just another thought, i'm not trying to presume that this is what is going on with you.. i'm just saying that this is the sort of thing that was going on with me and just trying to show you another perspective perhaps.
BX
Another thing that a co dep would do. would be to stay in a relationship becuase they deep down truly believe that the other persons worl would colapse if they left and they really couldnt handle the guilt that that would mean for them. so they stay out of loyalty as they callit when really they stay becuase it is a way of controlling the situation and their partners for their own emotional needs. It's a way of coluding with the alcoholic to stop them standing on their own to feet and taking personal responsibility for themselves, in this way a co dept can feel validated in caring. it's finding comfortfor oneself in being a matry.. 'I must be a really good selfless person because im putting someone elses needs before my own@ kind of thing.... anyhow, thats just another thought, i'm not trying to presume that this is what is going on with you.. i'm just saying that this is the sort of thing that was going on with me and just trying to show you another perspective perhaps.
BX
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 684
Hi and welcome to SR,
I can relate to your situation as well. My AH has some similar traits of relating and communicating with me and the kids. His A'ism has not helped the situation in fact his A'ism probably was sparked off by his dysfunctional family of origin. Having said that, my own dysfunctions just made it a dependent/codependent match made in heaven relationship.
I have gone through that complete emotional detachment phase as well; usually it would be during the drinking and drugging periods that he would go through. Sober times in the past I was much more involved with his recovery than I am now. Mostly I monitored everything, how many meetings he was going to etc. I don't do that anymore. Some days I ask myself why I am still married to this man who has had so much chaos in his life and it has affected me in so many ways. My answer is usually the same, I love him and have accepted that this is a disease that I cannot control or cure. I enjoy the good times we still have. Through the bad times we continue to mature and grow. Some day I'm sure we'll make fine grown ups. LOL!!
My problems were there before I even met my AH. His disease just intensified my issues. I had no recovery at that time either.
From your post you sound ready to be done with this relationship but won't allow yourself to be done. Emotionally you sound like you have moved on a long time ago. I have been so loyal to my AH but not loyal to me. Finally, I knocked him off the pedestal I put him upon and put myself on that pedestal. Some days I have to switch places with someone in the house because of a need that must be met but if I'm not well then nothing else in my life will be well. Find the joy and happiness in your life again... use your resources that are available to you. Your HP, a counselor, your outdoor time, a friend, a book, a journal, anything or anyone that can help guide you to make the decisions you seek. I hope you continue your journey of recovery... there is nothing you can do or say for your AH's recovery journey. Whether you stay or leave him his recovery is his own. If he were a well person do you think he would want you to stay with him for the sake of being loyal? Or would he want you to be happy, joyous, and free to live your life the way it was intended to?
Take care,
AJ
I can relate to your situation as well. My AH has some similar traits of relating and communicating with me and the kids. His A'ism has not helped the situation in fact his A'ism probably was sparked off by his dysfunctional family of origin. Having said that, my own dysfunctions just made it a dependent/codependent match made in heaven relationship.
I have gone through that complete emotional detachment phase as well; usually it would be during the drinking and drugging periods that he would go through. Sober times in the past I was much more involved with his recovery than I am now. Mostly I monitored everything, how many meetings he was going to etc. I don't do that anymore. Some days I ask myself why I am still married to this man who has had so much chaos in his life and it has affected me in so many ways. My answer is usually the same, I love him and have accepted that this is a disease that I cannot control or cure. I enjoy the good times we still have. Through the bad times we continue to mature and grow. Some day I'm sure we'll make fine grown ups. LOL!!
My problems were there before I even met my AH. His disease just intensified my issues. I had no recovery at that time either.
From your post you sound ready to be done with this relationship but won't allow yourself to be done. Emotionally you sound like you have moved on a long time ago. I have been so loyal to my AH but not loyal to me. Finally, I knocked him off the pedestal I put him upon and put myself on that pedestal. Some days I have to switch places with someone in the house because of a need that must be met but if I'm not well then nothing else in my life will be well. Find the joy and happiness in your life again... use your resources that are available to you. Your HP, a counselor, your outdoor time, a friend, a book, a journal, anything or anyone that can help guide you to make the decisions you seek. I hope you continue your journey of recovery... there is nothing you can do or say for your AH's recovery journey. Whether you stay or leave him his recovery is his own. If he were a well person do you think he would want you to stay with him for the sake of being loyal? Or would he want you to be happy, joyous, and free to live your life the way it was intended to?
Take care,
AJ
Guest
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: WIsconsin
Posts: 6
Wow. Thank you, all of you. OK, this might sound corny, but I feel... embraced. GiveLove, I began to smile as I read your post--just the pure joy/relief of finding someone who struck home right away. (And a Mary Oliver quote, too!) And the feelings continued as I read: everyone sharing their thoughts, offering ideas, asking questions; and always understanding: we don't have the whole story (because no one ever does) but nevertheless here are things to think about, carribeanblue!
And I am. GiveLove, I need to spend some time pondering your key questions: What are my expectations of marriage? What function does it serve? The list you shared of your expectations/purpose of marriage was illuminating. What I don't know is, given how drastically my husband has changed in the last 1-2 years, and how hard I see him working to continue that, what he may now be able to offer me that he couldn't in the past. I don't know that. Is it worth it to wait further? I don't know. Would I be happier alone? I don't know. I think living alone WOULD be more within my comfort zone... so by definition I resist the conclusion that living alone is the BEST thing for me. ajangels2, you mentioned that through the bad times we mature and grow. Yes.
I do know he is a much kinder and gentler person, the near total departure of his previously constant angry side is very new; I guess in a way I am fascinated by the whole thing... but I also know that he will never be able to offer, perfectly, everything I want. (For anyone who is into Briggs Meyer, I am INTP. He is E/I, strong S, FJ!) I have likened it to someone learning another language at a late age. He will always "have an accent". He will never speak perfect "carribeanblue"! I don't know that anyone ever can. And there is the rub. Before I ditch this relationship, after 25 years of work and growth, for another, or for none at all (which is quite acceptable), I need to know and understand the source and function of these walls I build. Because to be honest, I don't feel close to anyone. I so easily oversocialize. I don't have any close friends. I have shared some with a dear older sister, but even with her I unwittingly create walls by choosing not to speak. I keep everyone at a distance. Writing these posts is helping me to re-open. Verbally I feel I am just starting to learn to open, except in the "safe zone" of counseling. We both are working on that. I now have a husband who is much more willing to listen, only to discover that I don't know how to share. Hence the subject/title of my posting.
Does that make sense?
I wrote my posting on Monday. I was down, irritated with him. I didn't want him in my space. On Monday night, we had a good counseling session. Our counselor schedules us at the end of the day and often we run way over time (I think she gets a kick out of our "respectful polite" way of relating to each other). At the end of this last session she complimented both of us on how hard we are working to change. So I guess in this posting you will hear less minor key, more major key (less melancholy, more upbeat and curious)... because that's where I am today.
I guess that's just a "warning" to those who are kind enough to extend a hand... that I am likely to contradict my own postings! Geez, sometimes I swear there are full-fledged multiple personalities bouncing all over inside this bony little head.
So, GiveLove, you wonder what is my deep reason for staying? I have been poking at that question for years... I still don't know! I don't know if there is one reason. I think there are many. Including:
- Fear of another person's anger, and habituated response. I did not grow up in an alcoholic household, but there was a fair amount of daily raised voices--not at me. Mostly between parents and a sister who was an angry bully (she's pretty cool now. Actually, our whole family likes each other). I always ran to my room. AH's daily anger and raised voice was similar--never angry directly at me, always angry at the world. (Boss, family, coworkers, other drivers, etc.) I coped in the way I had learned as a child: Don't confront, that doesn't help. It has nothing to do with you. Just isolate yourself--and since I'm a loner anyway, that seemed an adequate answer.
- Ill health. I have had some pretty intense medical problems throughout my life. In 2006-March 2009, I was very sick (24/7 headache/balance/vision problem for 2-1/2 years. All I can say is they don't tell you all you need to know about protracted antidepressant withdrawal when you first go on the little buggers). I also have been diagnosed with severe adrenal fatigue (much like chronic fatigue syndrome), which is gradually getting better. Could this relationship have been part of why I have been ill? Definitely. Am I myself part of why I have been ill? Definitely. All I know if when you're sick and have severe brain fog and can't walk up a flight of stairs without feeling like you're going to keel over, and you don't have much in the way of a support system, packing up and filing for divorce and getting an apartment and setting off an angry person is a pretty daunting prospect. (BTW I am working on the support system, especially through joining the local Unitarian Universalist Fellowship.)
Just a couple other notes in response to those who posted:
- I have gone to quite a bit of solo counseling, mostly before AH quit drinking. I stopped going spring of '07, before he quit, because I felt I had hit a wall: I knew I was too sick and wouldn't leave at that time. Give me credit, though, I did reach the decision and went to the lawyer--sick or not--in July, the day before he got fired and everything started to change!
- By staying I am preventing him from finding his own happiness...? I used to believe that one. Now I've moved away from that thought... neither my leaving nor my staying prevents him from finding his own happiness. He, too, is free to choose.
- We don't sleep in the same room because he snores, sweats, throws his arms around in his sleep and likes the TV on! We got separate sleeping rooms over a decade ago when I was on second shift (and had suffered from restless leg syndrome). I love having my own room, no matter who I live with! It is painted deep pure red and grey (the two sides of me?), and is my creative place to hang out.
- The relationship is platonic at this time. We're learning to hug, cuddle. That's fine with me at this time. There's more to the sexual than meets the eye, but nothing I wish to share at this time. Just wanted to say this is a nonissue for me right now. I want emotional connection before I will begin to care about sex.
- Guilt? "Who is the you that feels guilty", to quote MeHandle. I don't know that I feel guilty NOW. I think I might feel guilty for not appreciating him if he, as I put it, keeled over. That is because deep inside I suspect that I have a severe case of "grass is greener" that might not pan out if/when he was suddenly gone from my life. This one I have to explore further, I think. Maybe I'd better try that imaginary "he's gone forever" exercise again.
- He is indeed learning to stand on his own two feet. I have made it very clear that I do not wish to be sole counselor, teacher or support staff. I have told him others need to help fill most of those needs; I have done my share. He understands. When drunk he used to call me at work and rant into my ear about the idiots in the world, 10 times a day. (I always answered, even when we got caller ID phones at work.) He says he understands now that it was unfair to dump all that on me. And in terms of being his support, I shared some basic nutrition info from my own struggles in that regard, but if he does not seek out a nutritionist, for instance, I will not be one. Just want to point out: he makes his own meals, does his own laundry, monitors and sets up his own medical appointments, does his own shopping, etc. Always has. Has never expected me to do so. I have not been a typical co-dependent! (Not saying I haven't been one, though. Like answering all 10 phone calls.) In a way, AH and I are both "lone wolfs".
Aside: In the animal world, I've always felt kinship to coyotes. Fierce survivor, but also a lone wanderer.
Where'd that come from? Anyway...
I don't think there is one definition of "husband". And I don't know if a husband always has to be one's best friend. I think there are other roles he plays in my life. And perhaps there are other persons who can fill some of my other needs; for example, if I find a friend who also listens to NPR. The fact that I don't HAVE any close friends tells me something--tells me the problem here is not all him, nor is he the sole cause of my frozen insides. I don't know that those frozen insides relate very well to anyone. And that's my biggest problem. One that may not be solved by leaving. One that I might very well be forced to solve--by staying.
Or... not.
Geez, can I ever spew via keyboard. To strangers. Here is another "safe zone". And how good it is to "speak". I am going to continue rereading postings, thinking, analyzing. Counseling is good, but the new perspectives have brought new life into my analysis. Thanks.
And I am. GiveLove, I need to spend some time pondering your key questions: What are my expectations of marriage? What function does it serve? The list you shared of your expectations/purpose of marriage was illuminating. What I don't know is, given how drastically my husband has changed in the last 1-2 years, and how hard I see him working to continue that, what he may now be able to offer me that he couldn't in the past. I don't know that. Is it worth it to wait further? I don't know. Would I be happier alone? I don't know. I think living alone WOULD be more within my comfort zone... so by definition I resist the conclusion that living alone is the BEST thing for me. ajangels2, you mentioned that through the bad times we mature and grow. Yes.
I do know he is a much kinder and gentler person, the near total departure of his previously constant angry side is very new; I guess in a way I am fascinated by the whole thing... but I also know that he will never be able to offer, perfectly, everything I want. (For anyone who is into Briggs Meyer, I am INTP. He is E/I, strong S, FJ!) I have likened it to someone learning another language at a late age. He will always "have an accent". He will never speak perfect "carribeanblue"! I don't know that anyone ever can. And there is the rub. Before I ditch this relationship, after 25 years of work and growth, for another, or for none at all (which is quite acceptable), I need to know and understand the source and function of these walls I build. Because to be honest, I don't feel close to anyone. I so easily oversocialize. I don't have any close friends. I have shared some with a dear older sister, but even with her I unwittingly create walls by choosing not to speak. I keep everyone at a distance. Writing these posts is helping me to re-open. Verbally I feel I am just starting to learn to open, except in the "safe zone" of counseling. We both are working on that. I now have a husband who is much more willing to listen, only to discover that I don't know how to share. Hence the subject/title of my posting.
Does that make sense?
I wrote my posting on Monday. I was down, irritated with him. I didn't want him in my space. On Monday night, we had a good counseling session. Our counselor schedules us at the end of the day and often we run way over time (I think she gets a kick out of our "respectful polite" way of relating to each other). At the end of this last session she complimented both of us on how hard we are working to change. So I guess in this posting you will hear less minor key, more major key (less melancholy, more upbeat and curious)... because that's where I am today.
I guess that's just a "warning" to those who are kind enough to extend a hand... that I am likely to contradict my own postings! Geez, sometimes I swear there are full-fledged multiple personalities bouncing all over inside this bony little head.
So, GiveLove, you wonder what is my deep reason for staying? I have been poking at that question for years... I still don't know! I don't know if there is one reason. I think there are many. Including:
- Fear of another person's anger, and habituated response. I did not grow up in an alcoholic household, but there was a fair amount of daily raised voices--not at me. Mostly between parents and a sister who was an angry bully (she's pretty cool now. Actually, our whole family likes each other). I always ran to my room. AH's daily anger and raised voice was similar--never angry directly at me, always angry at the world. (Boss, family, coworkers, other drivers, etc.) I coped in the way I had learned as a child: Don't confront, that doesn't help. It has nothing to do with you. Just isolate yourself--and since I'm a loner anyway, that seemed an adequate answer.
- Ill health. I have had some pretty intense medical problems throughout my life. In 2006-March 2009, I was very sick (24/7 headache/balance/vision problem for 2-1/2 years. All I can say is they don't tell you all you need to know about protracted antidepressant withdrawal when you first go on the little buggers). I also have been diagnosed with severe adrenal fatigue (much like chronic fatigue syndrome), which is gradually getting better. Could this relationship have been part of why I have been ill? Definitely. Am I myself part of why I have been ill? Definitely. All I know if when you're sick and have severe brain fog and can't walk up a flight of stairs without feeling like you're going to keel over, and you don't have much in the way of a support system, packing up and filing for divorce and getting an apartment and setting off an angry person is a pretty daunting prospect. (BTW I am working on the support system, especially through joining the local Unitarian Universalist Fellowship.)
Just a couple other notes in response to those who posted:
- I have gone to quite a bit of solo counseling, mostly before AH quit drinking. I stopped going spring of '07, before he quit, because I felt I had hit a wall: I knew I was too sick and wouldn't leave at that time. Give me credit, though, I did reach the decision and went to the lawyer--sick or not--in July, the day before he got fired and everything started to change!
- By staying I am preventing him from finding his own happiness...? I used to believe that one. Now I've moved away from that thought... neither my leaving nor my staying prevents him from finding his own happiness. He, too, is free to choose.
- We don't sleep in the same room because he snores, sweats, throws his arms around in his sleep and likes the TV on! We got separate sleeping rooms over a decade ago when I was on second shift (and had suffered from restless leg syndrome). I love having my own room, no matter who I live with! It is painted deep pure red and grey (the two sides of me?), and is my creative place to hang out.
- The relationship is platonic at this time. We're learning to hug, cuddle. That's fine with me at this time. There's more to the sexual than meets the eye, but nothing I wish to share at this time. Just wanted to say this is a nonissue for me right now. I want emotional connection before I will begin to care about sex.
- Guilt? "Who is the you that feels guilty", to quote MeHandle. I don't know that I feel guilty NOW. I think I might feel guilty for not appreciating him if he, as I put it, keeled over. That is because deep inside I suspect that I have a severe case of "grass is greener" that might not pan out if/when he was suddenly gone from my life. This one I have to explore further, I think. Maybe I'd better try that imaginary "he's gone forever" exercise again.
- He is indeed learning to stand on his own two feet. I have made it very clear that I do not wish to be sole counselor, teacher or support staff. I have told him others need to help fill most of those needs; I have done my share. He understands. When drunk he used to call me at work and rant into my ear about the idiots in the world, 10 times a day. (I always answered, even when we got caller ID phones at work.) He says he understands now that it was unfair to dump all that on me. And in terms of being his support, I shared some basic nutrition info from my own struggles in that regard, but if he does not seek out a nutritionist, for instance, I will not be one. Just want to point out: he makes his own meals, does his own laundry, monitors and sets up his own medical appointments, does his own shopping, etc. Always has. Has never expected me to do so. I have not been a typical co-dependent! (Not saying I haven't been one, though. Like answering all 10 phone calls.) In a way, AH and I are both "lone wolfs".
Aside: In the animal world, I've always felt kinship to coyotes. Fierce survivor, but also a lone wanderer.
Where'd that come from? Anyway...
I don't think there is one definition of "husband". And I don't know if a husband always has to be one's best friend. I think there are other roles he plays in my life. And perhaps there are other persons who can fill some of my other needs; for example, if I find a friend who also listens to NPR. The fact that I don't HAVE any close friends tells me something--tells me the problem here is not all him, nor is he the sole cause of my frozen insides. I don't know that those frozen insides relate very well to anyone. And that's my biggest problem. One that may not be solved by leaving. One that I might very well be forced to solve--by staying.
Or... not.
Geez, can I ever spew via keyboard. To strangers. Here is another "safe zone". And how good it is to "speak". I am going to continue rereading postings, thinking, analyzing. Counseling is good, but the new perspectives have brought new life into my analysis. Thanks.
mergirl
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Paradise
Posts: 4,161
Wow, you sound just like I feel! Funny/sad thing is, I used to be able to write a list like Givelove's. My husband and I are in separate rooms. We are friends, but in a sometimes uncomfortable and mostly distant way now. Our first 10 years I knew he was THE one, the last 5 years have been . . .cold? or passionate-less?
I am taking steps that will lead me to be financially capable of moving to a city I would much rather be in. As the promotion gets closer, I find myself more and more excited about my "escape". And I'm o.k. with that.
When I leave, he will start drinking again, he only quit for me
When I leave, he will start smoking again, he only quit for me
When I leave, the house will not be well cared for, and he will eat horridly
I feel sad, and guilty, and really mad at him for all of this alternately. He loves me more than he loves himself.
But I am going when I can, and I am looking forward to it, because it feels like my path is out there, and no longer here.
I am taking steps that will lead me to be financially capable of moving to a city I would much rather be in. As the promotion gets closer, I find myself more and more excited about my "escape". And I'm o.k. with that.
When I leave, he will start drinking again, he only quit for me
When I leave, he will start smoking again, he only quit for me
When I leave, the house will not be well cared for, and he will eat horridly
I feel sad, and guilty, and really mad at him for all of this alternately. He loves me more than he loves himself.
But I am going when I can, and I am looking forward to it, because it feels like my path is out there, and no longer here.
Guest
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: WIsconsin
Posts: 6
Originally Posted by uglyeyes 
But I am going when I can, and I am looking forward to it, because it feels like my path is out there, and no longer here.
Anyway, I remember feeling like I was opening a box and taking out a pair of wings. I would be able to truly fly, instead of feeling like a kite on a string, tied to someone who's feet were firmly planted.
Have you told him yet that you plan to leave? What kind of a reaction did you/do you think you'll get? I've been realizing as I've read the other postings in this thread (especially those from one's who are suggesting it's time to leave, as they once did), that the actual ACT of telling him I'm leaving is a part of what stops me. It's easy to imagine the life I'd have afterwards; tough to initiate it in reality. I did try once, in 2006 when he was still drinking/angry, to suggest we separate a while. He felt very threatened, made no attempt to understand where I was coming from, and successfully manipulated me by turning very cold and saying fine, he'd find someone else and change the locks! What he'd really have done I don't know, I think it was more bluff and bravado than anything else. I was too sick at the time to fight back, so I let it go.
If I walked up to the NEW him now, out of the blue, as we're going to counseling and, according to our counselor, making good progress, and socked him with, "Hey, I am leaving this relationship..." I just can't do it. I just can't. I'd feel like a schmuck, saying, "You've worked hard and changed so much, and you're trying to become more of what I'm looking for, but too bad, I quit."
How are you getting yourself past this stumbling block, uglyeyes? Or maybe you don't see it as a major obstacle...
Guest
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: WIsconsin
Posts: 6
Geez, I just realized how angry I am that he had the audacity to CHANGE, when I'd finally decided I'd had enough. I'm angry at him for hitting bottom and truly improving, just enough to undermine my justification for leaving...
How sick I am.
How sick I am.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: behind the viewfinder...
Posts: 6,278
Originally Posted by carribeanblue
Geez, I just realized how angry I am that he had the audacity to CHANGE, when I'd finally decided I'd had enough. I'm angry at him for hitting bottom and truly improving, just enough to undermine my justification for leaving...
How sick I am.
How sick I am.
Feelings and emotions are what they are. Having them doesn't mean there is something wrong with you.I was angry that my husband decided to get sober, too. Why couldn't he have done it years before?????? Why did he have to wait till our marriage was dead?????
That was when I began to learn that it was okay for me to have changed. That I could want what I want in life, regardless of what someone else does or doesn't do. That just because he was finally doing what I had been asking for years didn't mean I had to put my life back in his hands. People change. I am allowed to change, too. I don't owe my future to anyone. I owe it to ME!
L
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Stumbling toward happiness
Posts: 4,706
"You've worked hard and changed so much, and you're trying to become more of what I'm looking for, but too bad, I quit."
Here's an equally true way of phrasing that: "We have a lot invested in this relationship, and we've both tried very hard to make it work. But the fact is, I'm still desperately unhappy and I know it's time for us to separate."
As long as you have more compassion for him than you do for yourself, you will stay. If threats of replacing you still affect you, then you have not yet reached your bottom. (when you do, you will not care as much) When you decide to put yourself first, things will change.....for the better, and maybe for both of you.
My X is far happier now than he ever was with me, even though he reacted violently at the thought of breaking up at the time. He can drink all he wants, date multiple women at once, feel as sorry for himself as he wants 24/7 and everyone coos "Ohh, poor thing..." and enables him. And of course, I'm much happier too.
You will do what's right for you. I'm glad you're getting a little extra insight from the folks here...they're very smart and compassionate people.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
