Need some objective opinions

Old 11-10-2008, 02:53 PM
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Need some objective opinions

I have only posted here once or twice, but I am pretty much a daily lurker. I’m your classic ACOA co-dependent married to an alcoholic. I moved out in March of this year after having enough of living with the behavior of my AH. I’ve been to some Al-Anon meetings but mainly use this board for support. To be honest, I’ve found it much more helpful than the meetings I’ve been to, and I’m not much of a meeting person. My therapist also has been very helpful for me in my codie recovery, as well as encouraging what I learn from Al-Anon & Melodie Beatty readings.

Anyway, here’s a little background & then my dilemma … I’ve been going to therapy since Spring ’07, first we went as a couple, then AH dropped out, but I continued on my own in January ’08. I had felt like I’m making some real progress in my recovery, despite a major codie relapse over Halloween weekend (more on that later.) My AH constantly asks me to go out with him, usually to bars, sometimes to dinner & then bars afterward. At first, I went with him (he really doesn’t have any close friends but me & I felt bad for him since I moved out – how codie is that?!) AH started going to an individual therapist who was supposed to help him with his drinking, and a few months ago we started marriage counseling again with a new therapist. His therapist & the marriage counselor seem to think it’s OK for AH to continue drinking, as long as he’s cutting back, and the marriage counselor even suggested I go out with him & let him drink but I leave if I feel uncomfortable with how much he’s had. My therapist, on the other hand, suggested that I not drink with him at all b/c it’s enabling him to continue drinking. I felt really caught between a rock & a hard place, as I wanted to try & work on the marriage, so I went with the marriage counselor’s advice. Over Halloween weekend, AH came out & joined me & a friend & then I stupidly invited him out the next night to listen to one of our favorite bands. Needless to say, AH did not cut back on his drinking either night; it was like old times watching him in action. And like old times, I let it happen & didn’t leave even though I was uncomfortable. By the end of the weekend, I felt stressed & anxious & mad at myself for letting it all transpire. I talked with AH last night about it & said I didn’t think we should drink together any more period. He wasn’t happy with that suggestion (big surprise). We talked about it again today in our marriage counseling session, and the counselor suggested I still go out with him but leave or tell him when I’m uncomfortable.

Everything I’ve read points me in the direction that if you have a drinking problem, you shouldn’t drink. But, 2 of the therapists seem to think it’s OK for him to be an actively drinking alcoholic, as long as he’s cutting back. I think by continuing the behavior, he’s not suffering consequences for his actions, and I foresee the behavior all rolling back in again. He’s practically begging me to move back in, but I’ve told him we’re not ready, and I don’t think we’ve made much progress. I even gave him money (my mistake) to get a prescription for Campral filled more than a month ago. I learned today he spent that money on “other things’ & hasn’t filled the prescription yet. I just don’t think he’s getting it, and I know I’m partly to blame by my enabling behavior. Am I right, though, in thinking an actively drinking A probably won’t ever get it under control? Any advice/suggestions are appreciated.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CatsnDogs4Me View Post
2 of the therapists seem to think it’s OK for him to be an actively drinking alcoholic, as long as he’s cutting back.
Neither of these therapists are married to him, are they? I spent quite awhile choosing a therapist. I ended up with a man who spent 30 years in the Navy and received his Ph.D. while in the service. He worked in V.A. hospitals with alcoholics for over 15 years. He KNOWS addiction. You may have landed with two counselors who don't specialize in addictions counseling.

Cutting back is an A's favorite way to "control" the drinking; to convince himself that he's not an A, but just a regular social drinker like us normies.

In A.A. it is frequently said, "One drink is too many, and a thousand drinks are never enough."

You might want to consider finding a therapist with a lot of experience treating addictions.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:11 PM
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Well, first of all, marriage counseling is by definition, working on the marriage. So, it's not surprising that the marriage counselor is suggesting some compromise.

But, more importantly, you have to decide what it is that you want. Do you want to work on your marriage, or do you want him to stop drinking? I'm totally serious here. If you want your marriage to work, then you must be prepared to accept him as he is. Not to say that he can't change, he can, and maybe he will. But, if the marriage continuing depends on him getting sober, that is an entirely different situation. If that is the case, then it's really about what your dealbreaker is.

Once you get really honest with yourself, I think your decisions will be clearer.

L
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:15 PM
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I hadn't considered that. I do know the therapist I go to on my own has specialized in addictive behaviors & has worked inpatient & outpatient therapy. She's the one who guided me to Al-Anon and doesn't think it is a good idea for my AH to be drinking at all. I felt like I was making a lot of progress with her before we started with the marriage counselor, and I now I feel confused. My gut instinct agrees with her, and I guess I need to learn to trust that more often.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:25 PM
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Thanks for your replies. I am slowly coming to grips with the "how I want things to be" vs. "how things are" view of the world. Like many on this board, I tend to fool myself into living in a fantasy world where he is the man I thought he could be. Yes, I married someone for his potential, and never listened when he told me "this is how I am." I won't go on married to him if his behavior doesn't change, and that extends beyond his drinking. I thought he'd hit rock bottom when I moved out, and that he would end up changing as a result. BTW, that's not why I moved out - I moved out for me - to find the peace I needed in my life. And, I have found that. I'm happier now that I have been in ages. I'm trying to give him the time and opportunity to work on himself & get better for him & then see where it leaves us. But, all I see is his constant pity-party & pleading to move back in. Fortunately, I've been strong enough to not let that happen. I know I still have a long road ahead in my own recovery, and it saddens me to see so little distance traveled on his. And, of course, it's hard for me not to step in & "make it better."
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:27 PM
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I would find a marriage counselor who understands addiction, not alcohol consumption.

Good luck - I hope everything works out the way you would like. I know how hard it can be.

((( )))
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:30 PM
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Ok I have had more than a couple qualified therapists with lots of experience in addiction counseling say the addiction needs addressed before any marriage therapy should even be attempted. And I mean addressed by detox, rehab, follow up programs and lots of sober time and solid recovery under the belt.

Originally Posted by CatsnDogs4Me View Post
But, 2 of the therapists seem to think it’s OK for him to be an actively drinking alcoholic, as long as he’s cutting back..
I can not imagine these words can come from someone who understands addiction.
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:33 PM
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Thumbs up Poor Therapy!

He must know that he is an alcoholic and desire to quite drinking for the rest of his life. Until that occurs its futile and waste of your time.
To drink with him is enabling and encouraging to justify drinking as OK.
WHEN HAVE WE EVER REPEATED THE SAME MISTAKE AND REAPED A DIFFERENT RESULT? WONT HAPPEN!
Only when he truely feels the need to stop, he will begin to heal a day at a time. No therapy will help him until this happens. GOODLUCK!
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Old 11-10-2008, 03:36 PM
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I had a similar experience with marriage counseling and LaTeeDa's post has caused me to understand why. What I believe my counselors (and possibly yours) didn't understand is alcoholism doesn't lend itself to moderation or compromise. If it were that easy, AA wouldn't exist and the world would be a happier place. Some research on my part showed that many degree programs do not educate on addiction unless that is the student's specific area of interest.

It sounds as if your primary therapist is qualified to help you. It's also a good sign that her advice agrees with your intuition.
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Old 11-11-2008, 07:44 AM
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I see this as another attempt by an underqualified therapist who is trying to treat addiction.

Psychologists, counselors, therapists (whatever you want to call them), while certainly qualified in their field, have no business delving into addiction treatment.

If you asked these therapists if they could help you with chronic pain, they would probably tell you to see a doctor. But they don't see addiction as a separate disease. And they think they know what they are doing when they don't.
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:42 AM
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My psychologist has her PhD in addiction issues.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:41 AM
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I'd be willing to bet neither therapist is a recovering alcoholic, or very well educated on alcoholism.
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Old 11-11-2008, 12:09 PM
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Thanks to everyone for their advice on the therapists. I looked up the profile for the marriage counselor, and sure enough, none of her specialities are in alcoholism or addiction. Lesson learned - should've checked that before! I also did a lot of thinking last night about my own recovery & went out at lunch today to 1/2 Price Books (love that place!) & bought 2 more Melodie Beatty books to help me. One on 12 steps for co-dependents and another with daily meditations. I think I got so wrapped up on working on the marriage I forgot about working on me - which ended up a lose-lose for both things. I'm going to put focus back on my own recovery & figuring out what I want & work on letting go of my control issues. I can see now by drinking with him I was just trying to control him & the situation, and one of the reasons I was so frustrated is that it's just a pointless exercise. I can only control how I think, feel, and react. Now I just have to put that theorem into practice.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:39 PM
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I'm new to this site as well but thought I'd respond because I've asked the same questions as you. I used to work for a treatment centre, even though I was living with an AH, believe it or not, though I'm not a counsellor. But talk about living a contradiction.

Anyway, there is a new philosophy out in the treatment world that abstinence isn't necessarily the way to go, rather cutting back slowly. I don't happen to agree with it or think it works, but I've talked to some counsellors and recovering A's that say it does work for them.

However, having said that, I think the most important thing is what you feel comfortable with. It doesn't sound like having watching him drink makes you feel very good about yourself or secure in the relationship or his ability to cope with the addiction. One thing I have learned is to follow your gut feeling. If you're not feeling good about it, that's all that is important.

I'd say stick to your boundaries of what you expect before you can move forward with a relationship with him. At least you will have peace of mind and respect for yourself, rather than possibly spending years of your life watching him closely and monitoring his drinking. Just because a counsellor thinks it is okay, they don't have to live with your AH and they can only suggest, but cannot tell you what to do. You need to live your life so that you feel safe, loved and respected. Living with someone, even if they have stopped drinking is difficult, because you wonder if/when they are going to start again and upset the life you have made together. But living with someone who continues to drink, only less supposedly, and wonder when they are going to cross that line to drinking too much, who needs it? And then you have to wonder.....because the A always justifies the fact that they should be able to learn to 'control' their drinking. But is that just an excuse? I don't know, but those are just my thoughts.

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Old 11-11-2008, 01:53 PM
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Thanks for the post, prairiegirl & welcome to the site. I've learned so much here myself. It does make me feel better to know at least the cutting back slowly thing is something that some counselors offer as an option, so I know I wasn't totally off-base with the marriage counselor we have now. I have been thinking a lot about how I could live with my AH again ... I know right now I don't trust that he can always control it, esp. since he hasn't shown that so far, and I don't know that he's really committed to trying. In our session yesterday he told the counselor he just wanted the separation to be over & move on. I often feel like he thinks I'll just "get over it" & say "OK -move back in." I'm seeing , too, that it's not just the alcoholism that's a problem for me. It's his overall lack of responsiblity for things that really gets under my skin (his money, his health, his family, etc.), and I have a feeling that's at the core of his being & probably tied to the root of his problems, but unless he's ready to tackle that, I don't know we can move forward together. And, for me, I see again fear creeping in & taking hold much like it did before I moved out. I was so afraid of making the wrong decision & of how upset he'd be that I almost didn't do it. But, it turned out to be the best decision I had made in years. Now, I feel like I'm approaching another turning point & am afraid of taking a step one way or the other. But, while I feel like I'm in limbo, I know I can take whatever time I need to figure out my next steps.
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Old 11-11-2008, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by prairiegirl View Post

Anyway, there is a new philosophy out in the treatment world that abstinence isn't necessarily the way to go, rather cutting back slowly. I don't happen to agree with it or think it works, but I've talked to some counsellors and recovering A's that say it does work for them.
I am a recovering alcoholic and this is the first I've ever heard of "recovering alcoholics" that drink.

interesting

I have to agree to find a therapist that understands addiction, and...hmmm....how to say...the therapists I have seen and been to actually have asked me to do stuff that goes against my grain so much I considered the "requests" insane.

Every time I complied with those "requests" the results were astonishing. I mean incredible. I have an inability to describe the changes that occurred they were so vast.

I am not, and don't go to therapy to "reinforce my beliefs" if "my belief system" were "healthy" I wouldn't need therapy, I have received incredible amounts of "validation" from therapy, but, for me, that is NOT an indication of whether something is healthy or not. I also don't always know which part of my "value system" is healthy or not, some of my healthiest looking "value systems" turned out to be the very same things that were making me go batty, that's why I needed "outside help" such as therapy and a sponsor.

I am an Alcoholic, and a Codependant.

My best thinking gets me into Jails, Hospitals, and Institutions on one hand, and in relationships with insane people on the other.

I go to therapy to learn new ways to think and to live, and "unhealthy" has been programmed into me for so long in some cases and some areas of my life, that "healthy" has quite literally looked and felt insane.

just my .02
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