another forum?
Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 792
i don't want to speak for WantsOut, but i think maybe the main point she was trying to get across was that alcohol is more socially acceptable, so it makes US more likely to accept those who suffer from the disease.
i have friends who firmly don't believe alcohol is a drug, just like some might think caffeine isn't a drug. if everyone else is doing it, how could it be? but, boy, when someone's DOC is heroin - they're shunned and viewed as "bad" people... it's a problem with our society and which drugs are thought to be socially acceptable, in my opinion.
i don't think she meant to attack anyone or their way of life... i can definitely understand that addicts are just as sneaky and manipulative as alcoholics, and i thank you all for being here!
i have friends who firmly don't believe alcohol is a drug, just like some might think caffeine isn't a drug. if everyone else is doing it, how could it be? but, boy, when someone's DOC is heroin - they're shunned and viewed as "bad" people... it's a problem with our society and which drugs are thought to be socially acceptable, in my opinion.
i don't think she meant to attack anyone or their way of life... i can definitely understand that addicts are just as sneaky and manipulative as alcoholics, and i thank you all for being here!
Member
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: fumbling towards ecstasy
Posts: 2,551
Originally Posted by WantsOut 
It's not a moral judgement. I don't mean it that way. It's an observation I believe.
Let me remind you all - alcoholism and drug addiction is not a moral failing. It is a disease.
Those that pass judgements like this have not been in the addict or alcoholics shoes, I think. It tends to be pretty easy to pass judgements on something one has never experienced themselves.
Is this thread and the one that was closed down last night helpful? I don't have an answer to that. I just *observe* a lot of judgement and bashing going on. Where is the recovery? I guess I don't see the recovery in these "Us" "Them" types of threads.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Seeking Peace
Posts: 1,371
Thanks Phinney.
InThisForMe...that was a very kind interpretation of wantsout's comments. But lets look at her own thoughts on this subject...repeated twice now...
"they are more accepting because they are the kind of people who will live with someone who is doing something so blatently illegal. I would not live with someone who smoked crack or did heroin - I just wouldn't"
The 'kind of people'?? Excuse me? What kind of people are we when someone we love falls prey to drug addiction? Maybe you could clarify. I'm confused. Do you really think we sit around and watch our addict shoot up iin front of us? Is this how you really think it works? Wow.
"Maybe the people who have lived with an illegal drug addict are more tolerant of their addictions because they were tolerant of the illegal drugging behavior."
Really...come on...this is absurd.
The purpose of this forum isn't to judge. Statements like these only serve to increase other's pain...and they really should have no place in a forum intended to support the people who love an addict no matter what their drug of choice.
InThisForMe...that was a very kind interpretation of wantsout's comments. But lets look at her own thoughts on this subject...repeated twice now...
"they are more accepting because they are the kind of people who will live with someone who is doing something so blatently illegal. I would not live with someone who smoked crack or did heroin - I just wouldn't"
The 'kind of people'?? Excuse me? What kind of people are we when someone we love falls prey to drug addiction? Maybe you could clarify. I'm confused. Do you really think we sit around and watch our addict shoot up iin front of us? Is this how you really think it works? Wow.
"Maybe the people who have lived with an illegal drug addict are more tolerant of their addictions because they were tolerant of the illegal drugging behavior."
Really...come on...this is absurd.
The purpose of this forum isn't to judge. Statements like these only serve to increase other's pain...and they really should have no place in a forum intended to support the people who love an addict no matter what their drug of choice.
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Something I have learned in my 5 or more years here is that alcohol is a drug and each individual situation is different.
Nobody's pain is greater than anyone else's, different perhaps but who can measure pain?
The American Medical Association considers addiction (of any drug) a disease, and that's good enough for me, but people will still debate it until the cows come home and I have no intention of debating the issue.
And finally, I judge nobody here, addict or codependent. We all have come through our own personal hell to get here and as far as I'm concerned, when we reached the doors of SoberRecovery we all walk on the same path, the path of compassion, support and recovery.
Either ask for support or give it, that's how these forums work. One member helping another.
Peace
Ann
Nobody's pain is greater than anyone else's, different perhaps but who can measure pain?
The American Medical Association considers addiction (of any drug) a disease, and that's good enough for me, but people will still debate it until the cows come home and I have no intention of debating the issue.
And finally, I judge nobody here, addict or codependent. We all have come through our own personal hell to get here and as far as I'm concerned, when we reached the doors of SoberRecovery we all walk on the same path, the path of compassion, support and recovery.
Either ask for support or give it, that's how these forums work. One member helping another.
Peace
Ann
On a tear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Volcano Country!
Posts: 3,221
I was pretty judgmental about addiction at one time. I spent an enormous amount of energy to prevent addiction in my family.
Our GOAL was to break the cycle of addiction, consequently our entire lives revolved around the lives of our children.
...you can see it comin', can't ya?
But before it got to me, I was so over the top. I remember telling my husband all about what his sister and husband could be doing "different" (read: "better") with their meth-addicted son. I am ashamed of what I said and who I said it to.
Because a few short years later, I discovered our 17 year old daughter was a meth addict... worse - she had been using meth since the summer between 6th & 7th grades.
I never knew... my blindness was deafening.
I couldn't do better until I learned better.
Lots and lots (and did I say LOTS!?) of Alanon meetings later, I think I am better. A little.
I was never an evil woman. I was never a hateful woman. I was just uneducated and naive about addiction.
If I had my druthers, these family & friends forums would all be "one", because I don't think there is a difference between the condition of alcoholism and addiction. And the reason (to me) that there are more "moms of" over in FFSA and more "spouses of" over here... the younger generation has better access to illegal drugs than to illegal alcohol.
But the condition is exactly the same... for them and for us.
Okie dokie now... hoping I have not tossed any gas on the fire, my intent is just give MY perspective and how it changed over time.
What is that disclaimer they give in novels? "... any resemblance to any person, living or dead, is purely coincidental..."? Works for me!
(((loving hugs... to ALL of us)))
Our GOAL was to break the cycle of addiction, consequently our entire lives revolved around the lives of our children.
...you can see it comin', can't ya?
But before it got to me, I was so over the top. I remember telling my husband all about what his sister and husband could be doing "different" (read: "better") with their meth-addicted son. I am ashamed of what I said and who I said it to.
Because a few short years later, I discovered our 17 year old daughter was a meth addict... worse - she had been using meth since the summer between 6th & 7th grades.
I never knew... my blindness was deafening.
I couldn't do better until I learned better.
Lots and lots (and did I say LOTS!?) of Alanon meetings later, I think I am better. A little.
I was never an evil woman. I was never a hateful woman. I was just uneducated and naive about addiction.
If I had my druthers, these family & friends forums would all be "one", because I don't think there is a difference between the condition of alcoholism and addiction. And the reason (to me) that there are more "moms of" over in FFSA and more "spouses of" over here... the younger generation has better access to illegal drugs than to illegal alcohol.
But the condition is exactly the same... for them and for us.
Okie dokie now... hoping I have not tossed any gas on the fire, my intent is just give MY perspective and how it changed over time.
What is that disclaimer they give in novels? "... any resemblance to any person, living or dead, is purely coincidental..."?
Works for me!(((loving hugs... to ALL of us)))
CindeRella is proof that a new pair of shoes can change your life!
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Spreading my wings
Posts: 7,163
Originally Posted by Ann
Something I have learned in my 5 or more years here is that alcohol is a drug and each individual situation is different.
Nobody's pain is greater than anyone else's, different perhaps but who can measure pain?
The American Medical Association considers addiction (of any drug) a disease, and that's good enough for me, but people will still debate it until the cows come home and I have no intention of debating the issue.
And finally, I judge nobody here, addict or codependent. We all have come through our own personal hell to get here and as far as I'm concerned, when we reached the doors of SoberRecovery we all walk on the same path, the path of compassion, support and recovery.
Either ask for support or give it, that's how these forums work. One member helping another.
Peace
Ann
Nobody's pain is greater than anyone else's, different perhaps but who can measure pain?
The American Medical Association considers addiction (of any drug) a disease, and that's good enough for me, but people will still debate it until the cows come home and I have no intention of debating the issue.
And finally, I judge nobody here, addict or codependent. We all have come through our own personal hell to get here and as far as I'm concerned, when we reached the doors of SoberRecovery we all walk on the same path, the path of compassion, support and recovery.
Either ask for support or give it, that's how these forums work. One member helping another.
Peace
Ann
DITTO! Everyone situation is different and pain can be measured different in our own eyes but as OutonaLimb said pain is pain and it is the same (this does make sense if you think about it) -We all are walking the same path of recovery and to judge anyone here or out of here is just unacceptable. Maybe in the other forum they speak out or are "more open minded" because it is easier for them-how do we know if we are not an addict? I know my brother who is an A and Addict of drugs hid the drugs very well but when it came time for him to get himself into a program he was very open minded-I believe that this is a good thing for them and commend them on this it is a great recovery tool for them to speak out and be more open minded! I as a codie wish I could be more open minded at times-and speak out more. We do not know what they have or are going through just as they do not walk in our shoes- I think it is great that Mike came in here the other day seeking our advice!
We are here to help one another not bash each other no matter what our issues maybe!!!
Enough said-
Last edited by Rella927; 04-18-2007 at 11:17 AM.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
never ever should there be personnal bashing here of anykind!!!!!
we are all different-we all have wounds...
My son was addicted to crack at 15--recovered then became an alcoholic so I have seen both sides--not much different---
I just found it interesting that the drug forum was so opposite in their thinkingi-much more open,
Alcohol IS legal--its all about money people--try and stop the selling of it--never gonna happen---so I say they should tax it up the wahoo and use the money for research....
Ann what you say is true--the younger generation has total acsess to drugs--they are selling them right in the schools.
I enjoyed a comment in our paper once that said it was easier for a young person to get Crack then it was for them to get a pack of smokes--its tru too
we are all different-we all have wounds...
My son was addicted to crack at 15--recovered then became an alcoholic so I have seen both sides--not much different---
I just found it interesting that the drug forum was so opposite in their thinkingi-much more open,
Alcohol IS legal--its all about money people--try and stop the selling of it--never gonna happen---so I say they should tax it up the wahoo and use the money for research....
Ann what you say is true--the younger generation has total acsess to drugs--they are selling them right in the schools.
I enjoyed a comment in our paper once that said it was easier for a young person to get Crack then it was for them to get a pack of smokes--its tru too
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
wow---they closed''is it a choice'' why do people always end up attacking each other over a debate--a much needed one --that is denial in its purest form ...the main topic initially was to get opinions and some facts from all of us-as we all share a common thread-and what lay ahead in the future to help addiction-and what can we do to help it move along--closed post-closed minds.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: somewhere, out there...
Posts: 512
sunflower,
well said, the closed post - closed minds, i think this is what is going on in the radio with dom imus, et al; people should have opinions, we should all be able to discuss without tossing stones, people are getting sick of people being *just plain mean* - i don't think it's being *overly politically correct* as some would say - the more hate people spew the more accepted ignorance becomes - i think there's a lot of people in the world who have sacrificed a great deal to try and rid the world of ignorance and judgement - unfortunately we still have a way to go...
as ann said, we came here for support or to be supported, that's a wonderful thing, mixing opinion should be ok too - we just need to be open minded and willing to listen to all opinions without passing judgement - addiction has touched each of us in our own unique way - we should be able to expound on that honestly, without fear of being judged...
i don't know where i would be if i didn't have sr to seek opinions - take what you need and leave the rest..
and don't make me call out the flying monkey's...
love,
s
well said, the closed post - closed minds, i think this is what is going on in the radio with dom imus, et al; people should have opinions, we should all be able to discuss without tossing stones, people are getting sick of people being *just plain mean* - i don't think it's being *overly politically correct* as some would say - the more hate people spew the more accepted ignorance becomes - i think there's a lot of people in the world who have sacrificed a great deal to try and rid the world of ignorance and judgement - unfortunately we still have a way to go...
as ann said, we came here for support or to be supported, that's a wonderful thing, mixing opinion should be ok too - we just need to be open minded and willing to listen to all opinions without passing judgement - addiction has touched each of us in our own unique way - we should be able to expound on that honestly, without fear of being judged...
i don't know where i would be if i didn't have sr to seek opinions - take what you need and leave the rest..
and don't make me call out the flying monkey's...
love,
s
Administrator
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 10,681
From the rules
Tolerance: Please respect the rights of others to hold beliefs and perspectives, which differ from yours. Our Sober Recovery Forum members are of many nationalities, ages, and cultures. Healthy, vigorous debate will further our goals, but only when guided by the tolerance that springs from mutual embrace of mission.
Intellectual Freedom: Embrace diversity of practice. It is impossible to understand an action without first understanding the actor and their environment. Know that varied environments call for varied response. Your way may not be the best way.
Freedom of Speech: We resist censorship in favor of free speech. Within our forums, we support the broadest range of perspectives and expression, for it is the unification of diversity to cause that gives strength to our community. We are committed to equal opportunity. Influence and responsibility here are inseparable, and both spring solely from a demonstrated commitment to furthering the topics discussed in our forums. Bear in mind, however, that some language and conduct is still considered inappropriate. Please do not give medical advice, medication advice, or psychiatric advice.
Responsible Behavior: Your attendance here carries a responsibility. Ours is a mission of mind and perspective, and consequently, attention is our most precious resource. Do not waste what attention you may attract, nor seek to attract it with wasteful actions. Remember that personal worldview is a most powerful motivator; never treat another's lightly.
Posting of any content with the intention of disrupting the forum or inflaming members-be it on someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program. This includes flaming, flame baiting, registration of multiple accounts or impersonation of another member. Do not Harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress or discomfort upon another Online Forum participant.
Tolerance: Please respect the rights of others to hold beliefs and perspectives, which differ from yours. Our Sober Recovery Forum members are of many nationalities, ages, and cultures. Healthy, vigorous debate will further our goals, but only when guided by the tolerance that springs from mutual embrace of mission.
Intellectual Freedom: Embrace diversity of practice. It is impossible to understand an action without first understanding the actor and their environment. Know that varied environments call for varied response. Your way may not be the best way.
Freedom of Speech: We resist censorship in favor of free speech. Within our forums, we support the broadest range of perspectives and expression, for it is the unification of diversity to cause that gives strength to our community. We are committed to equal opportunity. Influence and responsibility here are inseparable, and both spring solely from a demonstrated commitment to furthering the topics discussed in our forums. Bear in mind, however, that some language and conduct is still considered inappropriate. Please do not give medical advice, medication advice, or psychiatric advice.
Responsible Behavior: Your attendance here carries a responsibility. Ours is a mission of mind and perspective, and consequently, attention is our most precious resource. Do not waste what attention you may attract, nor seek to attract it with wasteful actions. Remember that personal worldview is a most powerful motivator; never treat another's lightly.
Posting of any content with the intention of disrupting the forum or inflaming members-be it on someone's person, religious beliefs, race, national background, sexual orientation, or recovery program. This includes flaming, flame baiting, registration of multiple accounts or impersonation of another member. Do not Harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress or discomfort upon another Online Forum participant.
Hope3
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Upstate, NY
Posts: 2,155
Originally Posted by Phinneas
Nope. Not gonna let that on pass by. Your statements ARE moral judgements. Big time.
Let me remind you all - alcoholism and drug addiction is not a moral failing. It is a disease.
Those that pass judgements like this have not been in the addict or alcoholics shoes, I think. It tends to be pretty easy to pass judgements on something one has never experienced themselves.
Is this thread and the one that was closed down last night helpful? I don't have an answer to that. I just *observe* a lot of judgement and bashing going on. Where is the recovery? I guess I don't see the recovery in these "Us" "Them" types of threads.
Let me remind you all - alcoholism and drug addiction is not a moral failing. It is a disease.
Those that pass judgements like this have not been in the addict or alcoholics shoes, I think. It tends to be pretty easy to pass judgements on something one has never experienced themselves.
Is this thread and the one that was closed down last night helpful? I don't have an answer to that. I just *observe* a lot of judgement and bashing going on. Where is the recovery? I guess I don't see the recovery in these "Us" "Them" types of threads.
In this thread, I would have to say, talking about addiction and views can be helpful, I don't see any bashing in this thread, I seen one opinion about drugs not being the same.
Education about the disease and treatment is the most helpful in my opinion, because if you don't know the cause of the problem, you don't have the best chance of fixing it, and I mean recovery through knowledge.
Hope3
Southern through and through
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: In.....trouble :-)
Posts: 1,453
Originally Posted by Morning Glory
Healthy, vigorous debate will further our goals, but only when guided by the tolerance that springs from mutual embrace of mission.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Seeking Peace
Posts: 1,371
I am truly sorry about my second post.
It wasn't very productive. I think my first post was the right approach to take on this sensitive topic. Some of the comments really hit close to home...and they made me angry...and the anger festered...and I reacted poorly. My reaction doesn't show very strong recovery...and it didn't shed much light on the subject of recovery...and for this I AM truly sorry.
As I said before...everyone here has suffered loss because of someone else's addiction...getting angry never helps anything...it just burns bridges and thats the last thing I want to do here.
Hugs...
and very sincere apologies...
It wasn't very productive. I think my first post was the right approach to take on this sensitive topic. Some of the comments really hit close to home...and they made me angry...and the anger festered...and I reacted poorly. My reaction doesn't show very strong recovery...and it didn't shed much light on the subject of recovery...and for this I AM truly sorry.
As I said before...everyone here has suffered loss because of someone else's addiction...getting angry never helps anything...it just burns bridges and thats the last thing I want to do here.
Hugs...
and very sincere apologies...
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,351
nothing for us to feel bad about--and if anyone felt angry--that is positive-not always negative--we grow the more we learn and share.
I think the person who did the bashing-as you call it--has not responded yet--maybe he doesn't even see it in himself--or maybe it did some good for him to have to qeustion -and open his mind...
I think the person who did the bashing-as you call it--has not responded yet--maybe he doesn't even see it in himself--or maybe it did some good for him to have to qeustion -and open his mind...
Hope3
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Upstate, NY
Posts: 2,155
Originally Posted by hope3
In this thread, I would have to say, talking about addiction and views can be helpful, I don't see any bashing in this thread, I seen one opinion about drugs not being the same.
Education about the disease and treatment is the most helpful in my opinion, because if you don't know the cause of the problem, you don't have the best chance of fixing it, and I mean recovery through knowledge.
Hope3
Education about the disease and treatment is the most helpful in my opinion, because if you don't know the cause of the problem, you don't have the best chance of fixing it, and I mean recovery through knowledge.
Hope3
I just have to apoligize for the comment about not seeing any bashing or personal judgements being said, I went back and read all, and I do see them now. I agree with Phinneas, MG and Ann and all that passing judgements and bashing is not what this forum is for.
I didn't realize this was a us them thread, I don't think it was intended to
be one.
I am in the process of writing a research paper about addiction and the treatments that are having the best successes.
It will take a long time to do, but it will be a quality piece, I will share it with
my friends here at SR when I finish it.
The main purpose for this paper is to help people by giving information in a precise way.
I pledge to always share information that will help to aid in recovery, not to personally judge anyone on this forum in the future.
Want to join me?
Love and hope, Hope3
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
