Minnie has a point - let's look at projection!!!
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Keepin' my side of the litterbox clean
Posts: 2,136
Minnie has a point - let's look at projection!!!
I'm serious here. The addict projects and we project. That's the insanity of the situation. They project their insecurities and we project our expectations. Hell, for all I know we both project our insanity upon one another.
So how about it? What do we do with it when someone projects a lot of hatred, self-denigration, anger, confusion, and just plain old insanity upon us? Yeah, I know - detach. Hey, we're flawed human beings. When someone starts projecting their garbage onto me, I become defensive. I can now shrug it off pretty quickly because I realize someone in the throes of alcholic insanity is projecting. Still ... it can be difficult to have someone accuse you of never loving them, of stealing from them, lying to them, doing whatever-horrible-thing-you-can-imagine to them.
But you know it is not true. It takes a lot of backbone and inner confidence that no matter what they say, you know it is a bunch of baloney. It's always made more difficult because the person who says it is someone you desire to have approval from; be it mom, dad, sibling, partner, or husband.
We expect these people to love us, to accept us (warts and all). Yet when they spew hatred our way, we have to find the inner strength from our Higher Power to believe it is THEM, not US, who has the problem.
When my AH accused me of tossing his wedding band in the trash after he put it in our kitchen junk drawer, I simply said, "I know in my heart, as does God, that I would never do that." Six months later, he found his wedding band in a pocket of a pair of his old Dockers. Never apologized. Never really owned up to his screw-up. Simply justified it by saying he was convinced I had thrown the ring out when I went to the jewelry store two weeks later to replace the ring.
P.S. - I've never found the same pattern for a wedding band anywhere else but this store in the Union Station shops in Washington, D.C. I had the original band enscribed, "Eternal." You want to talk about heartbreak ....
So how about it? What do we do with it when someone projects a lot of hatred, self-denigration, anger, confusion, and just plain old insanity upon us? Yeah, I know - detach. Hey, we're flawed human beings. When someone starts projecting their garbage onto me, I become defensive. I can now shrug it off pretty quickly because I realize someone in the throes of alcholic insanity is projecting. Still ... it can be difficult to have someone accuse you of never loving them, of stealing from them, lying to them, doing whatever-horrible-thing-you-can-imagine to them.
But you know it is not true. It takes a lot of backbone and inner confidence that no matter what they say, you know it is a bunch of baloney. It's always made more difficult because the person who says it is someone you desire to have approval from; be it mom, dad, sibling, partner, or husband.
We expect these people to love us, to accept us (warts and all). Yet when they spew hatred our way, we have to find the inner strength from our Higher Power to believe it is THEM, not US, who has the problem.
When my AH accused me of tossing his wedding band in the trash after he put it in our kitchen junk drawer, I simply said, "I know in my heart, as does God, that I would never do that." Six months later, he found his wedding band in a pocket of a pair of his old Dockers. Never apologized. Never really owned up to his screw-up. Simply justified it by saying he was convinced I had thrown the ring out when I went to the jewelry store two weeks later to replace the ring.
P.S. - I've never found the same pattern for a wedding band anywhere else but this store in the Union Station shops in Washington, D.C. I had the original band enscribed, "Eternal." You want to talk about heartbreak ....
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
You are projecting right now.
The hurt, the pain, the sadness, loss,... I could go on.
The more you can remove yourself from allowing his actions and words to get to you, the less such negatives will be able to pull you into the drama
Yes his actions hurt
Yes his words hurt
No you don't deserve such.
What it comes down to..how much or how long will you allow his behavior to bother you? You can let it flow like water off a ducks back or you can try to hold on to it.
It isn't fair and it isn't right but it is what is there and detaching is the best way to deal with it...For your own peace.
Can't make sense of nonsense. Can't try to reason with someone who is unreasonable.
Set and hold your boundaries for "you"
You can't change him and just as it says at the bottom of Tramp's posts...
or how I have seen it put another way...
Don't fight with a pig in the mudd...they like it and you just end up getting dirty.
Let go and leave him to deal with his own issues.
You deserve more then what you are allowing for yourself. Leave him in God's hands. They are bigger then mine or your hands and he can handle things better then we ever could.
The hurt, the pain, the sadness, loss,... I could go on.
The more you can remove yourself from allowing his actions and words to get to you, the less such negatives will be able to pull you into the drama
Yes his actions hurt
Yes his words hurt
No you don't deserve such.
What it comes down to..how much or how long will you allow his behavior to bother you? You can let it flow like water off a ducks back or you can try to hold on to it.
It isn't fair and it isn't right but it is what is there and detaching is the best way to deal with it...For your own peace.
Can't make sense of nonsense. Can't try to reason with someone who is unreasonable.
Set and hold your boundaries for "you"
You can't change him and just as it says at the bottom of Tramp's posts...
Never try to educate pigs, it wastes your time and upsets the hog.....
Don't fight with a pig in the mudd...they like it and you just end up getting dirty.
Let go and leave him to deal with his own issues.
You deserve more then what you are allowing for yourself. Leave him in God's hands. They are bigger then mine or your hands and he can handle things better then we ever could.
Alcohol is a cruel mistress!!!
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: crownpoint newyork
Posts: 820
No matter how someone may try to detach from their craziness, it still can hurt. I would very much want an apology too. I will be the first to admit that I don't hesitate to demand an apology when my husband has done me wrong in someway. In turn when I have done something wrong I too will say I am sorry I was out of line. I have come to the conclusion that when I stew about something I only hurt myself and it will really get to me. I think that is part of our recovery. I am trying not to be a door mat and not internalize why he does what he does!! I am a work in progress.
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: England
Posts: 3,410
Learning about projection was something that really helped me to understand some of the dynamics that were going on in the relationship with R.
Common definitions
* "Projection is the opposite defence mechanism to identification. We project our own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blame them for having thoughts that we really have."
* "A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."
* "Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies, e.g. a man who has promiscuous impulses attributes those impulses to others
* "The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest.
* "A man harboring attractions for a woman would perceive other men has having the same attractions for her."
* "People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others. An individual who unconsciously harbours his or her aggressive/sexual tendencies may then imagine other people acting in an excessively aggressive or sexual way."
* "An individual who possesses malicious characteristics, but who is unwilling to perceive himself as an antagonist, convinces himself that his opponent feels and would act the same way."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Once I became aware of this concept, I saw the relationship through new eyes. There were massive amounts of projection happening from both of us and it was slowly killing the relationship and our respective spirits. We were relating on levels unknown and unacknowledged and the words and actions from both of us had very little to do with the here and now. As for my own projections, there were more subtle and harder to figure out. Or perhaps I was too close to be able to see. I find it easier to apply the simple concept whereby I take note of the things that really annoy me in other people's behaviour and then look inside myself. Lo and behold, I usually figure out where the irritation is coming from.
My issues stemmed mainly from transference i.e. redirecting feelings of one person or relationship to another. Again, it was easier for me to see in R - I lost count of the amount if times I uttered the words "I am not your mother!" The problem was, R was relating to me as if I was. As he had had a toxic relationship with her, it was no surprise that we had a toxic relationship as well. He would accuse me of thoughts and feelings that bore no resemblance to reality and I rarely recognised myself in his descriptions of my motives.
I undoubtedly brought feelings about my mother into the relationship with R. My Mum was severely ill with PND when I was a child and spent some years in hospital. I am firmly of the belief that this created a need in me to "fix" people and who better to get involved with but an alcoholic? I couldn't fix my mum, but I could make everything right by fixing R. But of course, that's illogical on so many levels.
Blimey, I could talk all day about my journey with all this stuff, but the swimming pool is calling. What I will say is that learning about Transactional Analysis concepts (in addition to the above) brought about a huge shift in my understanding. I clearly remember one argument between R and I were I got the feeling that I was a fly on the wall. At that moment, I could see for the first time the subtext to the argument i.e. when I was speaking as a "Parent", I would elicit the "Child" in him and vice versa. It is only when two people are speaking form an "Adult" position that the conversation is Script-free and what I would call emotionally honest. At that moment, I saw that R was so firmly entrenched in his "scripty" way of relating and I had started to move out of mine. That was really the beginning of the end.
I appreciate that this sounds very psychobabbly. All I can say is that it all helped me enormously in all my relationships, not just that with R. And for that I make no apology.
Common definitions
* "Projection is the opposite defence mechanism to identification. We project our own unpleasant feelings onto someone else and blame them for having thoughts that we really have."
* "A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."
* "Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies, e.g. a man who has promiscuous impulses attributes those impulses to others
* "The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest.
* "A man harboring attractions for a woman would perceive other men has having the same attractions for her."
* "People attribute their own undesirable traits onto others. An individual who unconsciously harbours his or her aggressive/sexual tendencies may then imagine other people acting in an excessively aggressive or sexual way."
* "An individual who possesses malicious characteristics, but who is unwilling to perceive himself as an antagonist, convinces himself that his opponent feels and would act the same way."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Once I became aware of this concept, I saw the relationship through new eyes. There were massive amounts of projection happening from both of us and it was slowly killing the relationship and our respective spirits. We were relating on levels unknown and unacknowledged and the words and actions from both of us had very little to do with the here and now. As for my own projections, there were more subtle and harder to figure out. Or perhaps I was too close to be able to see. I find it easier to apply the simple concept whereby I take note of the things that really annoy me in other people's behaviour and then look inside myself. Lo and behold, I usually figure out where the irritation is coming from.
My issues stemmed mainly from transference i.e. redirecting feelings of one person or relationship to another. Again, it was easier for me to see in R - I lost count of the amount if times I uttered the words "I am not your mother!" The problem was, R was relating to me as if I was. As he had had a toxic relationship with her, it was no surprise that we had a toxic relationship as well. He would accuse me of thoughts and feelings that bore no resemblance to reality and I rarely recognised myself in his descriptions of my motives.
I undoubtedly brought feelings about my mother into the relationship with R. My Mum was severely ill with PND when I was a child and spent some years in hospital. I am firmly of the belief that this created a need in me to "fix" people and who better to get involved with but an alcoholic? I couldn't fix my mum, but I could make everything right by fixing R. But of course, that's illogical on so many levels.
Blimey, I could talk all day about my journey with all this stuff, but the swimming pool is calling. What I will say is that learning about Transactional Analysis concepts (in addition to the above) brought about a huge shift in my understanding. I clearly remember one argument between R and I were I got the feeling that I was a fly on the wall. At that moment, I could see for the first time the subtext to the argument i.e. when I was speaking as a "Parent", I would elicit the "Child" in him and vice versa. It is only when two people are speaking form an "Adult" position that the conversation is Script-free and what I would call emotionally honest. At that moment, I saw that R was so firmly entrenched in his "scripty" way of relating and I had started to move out of mine. That was really the beginning of the end.
I appreciate that this sounds very psychobabbly. All I can say is that it all helped me enormously in all my relationships, not just that with R. And for that I make no apology.
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 689
Originally Posted by minnie
It is only when two people are speaking form an "Adult" position that the conversation is Script-free and what I would call emotionally honest.
Of course the challenge is having the awareness in the very thick of it and being able to make the shift. Those child states (or parent states) often have momentum fueled by powerful feelings that haven't been resolved. The most important thing I've found is that it takes a lot of practice to develop the awareness when one state or another is being triggered, and then have the wherewithall to shift.
best
gf
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Starting over all over again
Posts: 4,426
Good stuff Minnie, thanx for posting it.
In my relationship I eventually felt like I was the only adult. As you did I eventually saw how many of the behaviors my wife demanded of me were the ones she expected from her father. Even simple little things like sharpening the kitchen knives every Saturday. In my own disease I tried to become that father image, instead of maintaining my self image.
BTW, the short form of the definition of projection is "When you are pointing a finger at somebody else's behavior, you have three fingers pointing back at you".
Mike
Originally Posted by minnie
... I lost count of the amount if times I uttered the words "I am not your mother!"...
BTW, the short form of the definition of projection is "When you are pointing a finger at somebody else's behavior, you have three fingers pointing back at you".
Mike
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