guyinNC

You guys ever see this little jewel? A TV piece called quitters Inc. I think it may have been a twilight Zone short story. Anyway, the jest is this mobster who dies of lung cancer set ups this business to get people off smoking. You either quit, or else they beat your ass, shock your wife, cut off your finger.

I wonder......would severe aversion therapy work on our alcoholic loved ones? If they were tortured, electric shocks, caned.....would they stop. Could you make it so painful for them they would never drink again or else? I know, I Know...a sick thought....but if it could save their life? The life of others?

Are not alcoholics a ticking time bomb! Waiting to expode, harming themselves and/ or others. A moral delima!!

Gabe

"Quitters, Inc." is a part of the movie "Cat's Eye" that was written by Stephen King.
And yeah, it's a pretty sick thought.
No slam against Stephen King.
He freely admits he's got one of the sickest minds around.

equus

Nope I think they are people. I think when we dehumanise any 'type' of person it's our own humanity we lose.

BTW Aversives work but not as well as reward because unlike reward the more you use them the less effective they become. They also have nasty little side effects like alienation and anger which can show up in other behaviours, on top of all that by delivering an aversive you model a behaviour - monkey see.... monkey do!

Or in the words of someone who makes more sense than me - An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind!

Dan

I recommend a car battery with at least 1000 cold cranking amps, a decent set of jumper cables, and a bucket of water.

I've also heard it mentioned that continuous playback of Nancy Sinatra singing her entire catalog, while the alcoholic is duct taped in an uncomfortable wooden chair and forced to listen, has produced promising results in a couple study groups.

Jazzman

That would do it for me

TomsGirl

I don't believe it would work on the A's that are masochists. (Yes, being a brat!)

guyinNC

Slim Whittman!!! Ouch!

Rewards work better than Aversion therapy? What reward can you give an alcoholic to quit?

Isn't letting an alcoholic reach his bottom aversion therapy? His or Her life gets so painful, so destructive he quits or dies. All we can do is watch!

How about an Island like survivor. You throw them on the Island....no alcohol exists....they stay there a year eating mangos or something!

equus

I don't think quitting is short of rewards - we don't need to be the provider.

Some rewards I observe D get:
*A good job
*Workplace respect
*Not sick in the morning
*Sanity
*Self respect
*Time to do 'stuff' in the evening
*better home relationships
*hearing the relief me and his mother feel
*Knowing he's succeeding
*Can see a point to having a shave - WOW - you know, I think that's a biggy!
*Hope
*future
*energy
..... and I should think he could double the list!

equus

You can punish if you want but pound to a penny you'll find the effect of shouting wears off - then you try something harsher till that wears off, then something else till that wears off - then there's a line; one you once thought you wouldn't cross, maybe you just give up then, or maybe you cross it.

robina

Oh my goodness:

and what do you think they might do the instant they set foot off the island??

I no longer empty my daughter's booze bottles. You see, she lives in a world full of of booze, and bars. She needs to find her sobriety in that world, somehow.

Robin

Dan

The theory of inflicting pain to modify behavior is funny.
Lab animals seem to get it.
Humans, however...

In my real bad boy days, when I ran with the big fellas, I was sometimes entrusted with collecting funds owed, let's call it.

Serious body pain may have dissuaded a few of these gentlemen to not get into debt again for a few days, but in the long run, they inevitably got around to getting square with the dealer, and then starting the cycle all over again.

I believe it's only when an addict or alcoholic experiences, in his middle, in his soul, the promise of eternal pain, that maybe, just maybe, some kind of surrender will occur.

A cattle prod up the ass, while extremely uncomfortable, doesn't even come close.

laurie6781

Aversion therapy has been tried in the past. Also a group in California back in the late 60's and early 70's, I believe it was Synanon tried it and..........

It didn't work. As soon as they left the treatment the alkies went right back to you guessed it, drinking.

Antabuse doesn't alway work either, I have known many alkies myself included who drank while taking antabuse.

The alcoholic has to WANT to get sober.

Good for you Robin!!!!! Wow what strength!!!! I know how hard that was and is for you to do.

Love and (((((to all))))),

guyinNC

I Know, I Know....I posted this "tongue in Cheek".

But you have to admit it is an interesting concept. Aversion Therapy is used now.....not severe, but aversion none the less. The court sytem, jail time, lose of driving rights, etc. What is that drug that makes you alergic to alcohol? Anabuse? Is that not aversion therapy?

Honestly, I wish there was just some pill you could take. In fact, big pharma is working on such meds. Some exist now, but do not seem to work for everybody.

TomsGirl

Even with all that could be coming at him T made peanut butter cookies this morning, cleaned the living room, and set up the Christmas Tree! (Now it's just waiting for me to help decorate it.) I haven't had it in me to bring up that tree. I wish I was feeling better but I am soooooo glad that even with the possibility of dark clouds looming he's finding joy wherever he can. As for aversion therapy, he's done enough awful stuff to himself. I just hope he's finally developed a true aversion to it!

TomsGirl

Antabuse doesn't alway work either, I have known many alkies myself included who drank while taking antabuse

T took Antabuse for a while. Or at least made it LOOK like he was taking it. He'd park it in a far corner of his mouth and then spit it out when I wasn't looking. Cheeky devil!

equus

However horses that weigh the best part of a ton only get it sometimes and the results when they don't are yet another logical reason to be reward based!!

Reward works better - try any text book and it says the same. Aversives while effective on occasion have a tendency to backfire quite spectacularly (sp?).

As for what we can offer - my feeling is support in how we act, giving respect and also I think to reward effort and avoid downgraded effort that isn't 100% successful. I think respecting D's effort even when he failed made a difference, at the very least it made for better times at home.

Dan

There might then be a corelation between the weight and the volume at which Nancy Sinatra is played through the speakers.
Tweeter dimensions might even come into play...

Seriously, aversion therapy or techniques seem destined to fail in most cases.
Success of these ways of behavior modification cannot be judged solely on whether the behavior has ceased, but should also take into account the emotional health of the subject. Latent anger about these treatments can subsist for years.

Siegfried's pal Roy used aversion therapy on his tigers for a long time.
It took many years, but Roy got some good surgery out of the exchange.

guyinNC

What scares me is what Roy did to Siegfried! LOL

Jazzman

Sobriety is its own reward and that's not ours to give.

Dude, you had me with the Nancy Sinatra catalog... I give already!

Dan

Ding! Ding! Ding!
Yes and yes, and we can slice it thirty seven ways 'til next July, that's not gonna change. Sobriety was there for me to grab.
And if there is a someone that gave it to me, it certainly wasn't a human being.

Sorry about the cattle prod comment, Jazz.
I'll see if I can rustle up some Ethel Merman for you instead.