daydream

This is going to be long, but PLEASE, PLEASE read and respond if you have experience applying spiritual principles to conflict. I have written, prayed, talked and listened for 6 weeks and I'm not getting any better with this:

Without going into a bunch of details from the past, which I don't want to type out or feel this moment, I'll describe the current problem. If you really want to understand the situation more fully, read my thread "Help me help him" from early September in the Relationships forum.

I fell in love with a man, L, and he has now betrayed me. I trusted him more than I've ever trusted another human being. Our relationship was supposed to be secret only temporarily, both of us telling only our closest friends and sponsors. It was the first time I ever felt "in love" and I believed we were meant to be together. At the time of our relationship, he was 5 years clean and I was almost 4. He broke up with me 7 months ago (explained in that previous post which I referenced) and since that time, I had hoped and prayed we would be together again someday.

ahead
Just over a month ago, I met up with his recent ex-gf, I'll call her P, at a campout. In conversation, we discovered that he is a lying, cheating ******* . L had lied to her and to everyone else, saying he and I never had a relationship. He had lied to me when he said he told his sponsor of the relationship and that it was his sponsor's idea to break up with me. He lied to P when they got back together, saying he had not had sex with anyone since he broke up with her the first time. He was calling her, crying, saying he couldn't live without her,etc, and they got back together while he was still seeing me. I could go on and on.... Anyway, L saw P and I talking at the campout and ever since then, he has been approaching people at my home group (where he is also a member) and telling them we never had a relationship, that I made it up and that I'm crazy. He even approached one of my sponsees and had her seriously uncertain who to trust, until I showed her proof of our relationship. People keep calling, telling me these things he's saying about me. A newcomer male told me a few nights ago that L warned him about me. Newcomers are avoiding me. Only the people who've been around long enough to really know me are treating me the same as they did before. There are only 2 of us women (with more than a year clean) who attend meetings more than once a week. The newcomer females don't need to be hearing things that cause them to distrust me. In that way, I believe L is affecting the group as a whole.

So far, I feel good about the way I have handled this on the outside (except that I've been too chicken to confront him), but it's a struggle every day to keep applying spiritual principles. I have not spread this stuff around, although I would like to. Many have asked me what's going on. Even 2 of L's sponsees have asked repeatedly and I won't tell them. I've shared it only with a few close friends in confidence. Some have said I should tell everyone what L did to me and P, to let everyone see just what a low-life he really is behind all that guru talk. I disagree. I have kept my mouth shut for a variety of reasons. For starters, since his pride is soooo important that he was willing to sacrifice our friendship, to sacrifice his friendship with P and let everyone think I'm a liar, he might not be able to handle it if the truth comes out. Although he has 6 years clean, works steps like bunnies breed and talks a fine talk, he periodically gets suicidal or starts thinking maybe recovery isn't worth the pain. I don't want to feel even a tiny bit responsible for his relapse or suicide. I figure he has a better chance of staying clean if he can deal with the reality of his actions in his own time. Secondly, his sponsees are going to be terribly hurt if they find out he has lied to them. Thirdly, I want to set a good example and do the right thing. I'm not entirely sure what that is (will explain more below), so I'm choosing to err on the side of caution and not take any actions that I'll be unable to undo later.

It has been over a month since P and I discovered all this. L has had all that time to make amends, but has only continued the behavior. What makes it even worse, is that he's intentionally doing things to make me uncomfortable. He sits right behind me (never sat there before all this) and makes sound effects every time I share and sometimes makes jokes after the meetings about what I shared. At first I thought he was directing the sound effects at me, but now I'm starting to think it's his way of impressing his buddies or further convincing them that I'm the one lying. He also seems to be making an extra effort in his sharing to talk about his honesty and his daily 10th step. Let me tell ya this recent example. It turned my stomach: A couple of weeks ago he picked up his 6yr keytag. After most of the members shared how wonderful L is, he shared. He talked about how he applies spiritual principles and tries to apply the program in all his affairs. He talked about honesty. But the real kicker was when he said he does a daily 10th step and that when he is wrong, he has to promptly admit it!!!

Maybe what I'm struggling with is a pride issue. My reputation is very important to me. I try hard to live the NA program. Although I realize I am powerless over what L does or what people believe, I desperately want to clear my name. I could do that. I have proof of our relationship, not much, but I have a few things saved from our time together. P isn't an issue. She knows beyond any doubt that I've told her the truth because I told her many, many things I could not have known unless I had a physical relationship with L. I want people to know that I did not make it up and that I'm not crazy!!!

A couple of friends say that if this is still bothering me so much (I start shaking uncontrollably every time he glares at me or makes intimidating noises when i share) that I should do what I need to do for myself, meaning to share the truth openly. I'm not so sure. Part of me thinks I should apply spiritual principles more to suppress my pride, taking my own inventory instead of his. The other part of me feels like I'm letting him run over me and that I should stand up for myself (passivity has kept self-esteem pretty low all my life and I'm just beginning to make progress with that). So how do I determine which of these is right?

I want to get past this clean. I'm following suggestions and trying so hard. I pray for L and I pray for myself, asking God to remove my obsession over all this and to help me get through it clean. I'm still in meetings about 5 times per week, although I get extremely nervous before, during and after when L's around. I regret allowing that relationship to be secret, although it was supposed to be temporary and the explanations L gave for that were understandable and I agreed. Now I feel like I was just L's toy and that he was playing a game all along. I trust no one now. I'm going through the motions, still in meetings and still sharing, but not having faith that I won't be betrayed this seriously by everyone else too. How can I ever feel safe and secure in a friendship or a romantic relationship again when the person I admired, respected and trusted most in this world could con me so easily? It hurts so badly and the anger is enormous. So do I out him or keep stuffing this???

minnie

Hon, what a nightmare.

I don't normally post here as I am a regular on the F&F boards, but I was drawn here today and I'm glad I was. I can see a lot of my situation in your story and want to share a few things I have learned.

I split up with my alcoholic ex fiance last December. Within a month he was on-line finding my replacement, whom he took on an expensive holiday to "our" place in early March. All of this year he has been trying to get me back, denying he was in a relationship. So, you can imagine my surprise when I got an e-mail from his NEW fiancee in August!! Well, the web of lies that we untangled between us was unreal. I can't begin to list them here but they range from him denying we were ever engaged to him saying that a stray cat had wandered into his house (of which he sent me a video clip) when it was hers all along. I must add that I had contact with him only because we have a business together and I would not discuss personal matter with him at all - that didn't stop him e-mailing and leaving messages, though.

Anyway, he still can't see that he has done anything wrong and has obviously been feeding his family all sorts of rubbish as they are very cool towards me, despite me having had a good relationship with them previously. And his fiancee has decided to stay with him, but more fool her.

When all of this came out, I realised that I could not be in business with him anymore and so am trying to get out. He owes me a significant amount of money which I want paid as part of my exit, but will literally leave him penniless. I have been through all kinds of mental trauma about it
I felt the same. I felt that it may push him over an edge that I didn't want on my conscience. You know what? It's his bed, he has to lie in it. To say or do nothing is another form of enabling - and enabling doesn't just cover using, but all unacceptable behaviours. He is the one that has created this situation and if, after all his time in the programme, he cannot see that, then it's not your job to educate him. This kind of behaviour is, imho, nothing to do with addiction and everything to do with some kind of untreated personality disorder. Just because someone is in a programme doesn't mean that they can address all their problems by working the Steps.

I am sure that others with programme experience will be along in a while to answer your questions about that, but I just wanted to share my story with you.

(((hugs)))

Gooch

(((((((((Day dream)))))))

says in the text that people will let us down ...

I admire your resolve to turn this over to God, but if he's deliberately making you feel uncomfortable you have a right and an obligation to at least call him on the public part of his crap.

We can't save our face and our ass at the same time....

How is this guy ever going to get beyond this behaviour unless confronted?

How are you ever going to heal and regain your personal power unless you get to express and validate your feelings.

I'm not saying you have to tear him apart, or get revenge, and based in what you've written I think you allready know that.

Honesty without compassion is brutality..

Say what you mean, mean what you say, just don't say it mean.

You can get through this clean, learn from it, and allow your higher power to guide your path.

theNAway

Daydream

Sounds like you are handling this EXTREMELY well concidering the situation.
You have focused on what you can change, and trying to use the program to help resolve it.
It sounds to me, from a total outside pt. of view, that he is intimidated by your resolve in the program, and trying to intimidate you into not using it in this conflict.
Imho, there is a difference between right and wrong, and mentally knowing it. Not knowing, concludes there is a mental condition. Knowing the difference and still choosing suggests manipulation.
Imho, he is trying to intimidate, scare, and publically humilate you into submission.
I have met some pretty unhealthy people in recovery, it is just par for the course. Providing some semblance of the program, yet show otherwise in their actions.
Knowing this I can only provide a good example of how the program has worked to provide me with the gifts I have today. Although, if the line is crossed, forcing me into submission, it does me no good, as well as the group, and something needs to be set straight.
You did the best thing you can have done. First, THOUGHT AND PRAYED about it.
Next you hoped he would come to his senses. To no avail.
Now you have to do what needs to be done, for yourself, and for him. He needs to know this isn't going to fly.
He will continue this behavior, as we did our addictions until confronted.
You sound rational, compassionate, with the love of the program in your life.
I am sure you will be able to sit down and find a loving and caring way to express what has gone on.
I wouldn't get into a big confrontation and spend time defending yourself. This only concludes guilt.
Whatever you do, continue to go to meetings. Not only for your own recovering, but to show that you are a stronger woman than that, and are not easily brow-beat into submission.
This is a situation that can not only be helpful you to, but to others who see how you deal with it, properly, in RECOVERY. Especially other women, and your sponsees.
Good luck,
Chad H.

Blake

I'm sorry you are going through this.

I don't have much experience with conflict, but I have been told that we are each others eyes and ears.

I think maybe he needs to be called on his ****, especial when it affects other people's recovery. Not only is it affecting you, but it is also affecting the newcomer and his sponsees and other people in the fellowship. Him being dishonest is a slippery slope that can slide him backwards towards a relapse. I think it is in his best interest to be confronted about all this. Hold up a mirror so he can she what he is doing from a diferent point of view.

I wish you the best of luck, keep doing the right thing and god will take care of the rest.

godsonmyside

Like is said, nothing really ever good comes from a secret. Pride and Humility have no place together. When Spiritual Principles are in conflict with defects of character, somethings wrong, because Spiritual Principles are NEVER in conflict.

He is doing alot to tear you down, and yes you might expose something about him you think he may not make it out clean, but what about you, isn't your recovery worth getting over this. I don't really think there is anything to prove here, just that you want all the B*llsh!t to end, and to move on.

Actually he is hurting his sponsee's and you are watching it all from the side lines, we don't have to act on hurt by hurting others, but we do need to move on. Even if you write a letter with out sending it, talking about it at meetings, go to some outside meetings that he won't be at, You don't ever have to use again and you know that. You don't have to live like this either. Cockiness is a redlight indicator!! What doesn't come out in the wash, comes out in the rinse.

Peace,
Todd J.

Peter

My gut response to this is to tell you to openly share in a meeting what's going on.

Your own recovery is obviously suffering because of it.

You are not responsible for this man and you have no business trying to protect him or his pigeons when you are in so much pain.

On the other hand you could continue to remain mute and allow the spiritual principles of acceptance and courage to work in your life.The truth will ultimately be revealed.

You have to choose.Your indecisiveness is only going to make things worse.

What is more important to you? Your recovery ,or your fear of him?

You might actually be doing him and your group a favour if you share about it.

andyaddict

Personally, I can see where people are coming from when they come to a defensive position. I, myself, am a bit more skeptical.

I find no reason to believe that what is expressed here is not truthful... from the storyteller’s position. However, a good judge will always want to cross-examine the accuser and hear testimony from the defendant. There is, in my experience, always three sides to every story such as in this case; hers, his, and then the non-bias truth.

Can't change him, at least not a guaranteed change, besides it might backfire and become a worse problem then before. What could be changed is the preceding behavior that created this mess in the first place.

Relationships are touchy and often grey areas. I have found that the sooner I develop boundaries and ethics pertaining too, and in advance of relationships, the better off both I and the relationship becomes. Sneaking, secrets, SEX, communication, honesty from the start; all of these are behaviors best kept in check, both with inventory and retrospection.

Dear daydreamer

What have you done to change YOUR behavior... in a positive, constructive, and spiritual way? What have you made a decision to do NOW when confronted with a potential relationship that you didn't do then? What have you done to rid yourself of the distain towards the supposed perpetrator while seeking to help HIM as best you can? Could it be the reason you feel so confused is that you might already know through your conscience contact that confrontation out of hurt, anger, or self-defense is simply NOT the right thing to do?

I continue to see confounded witch-hunts both condoned and supported in such an atmosphere as NA, which "speaks" of unconditional love, patience, tolerance, and acceptance. You can't save your face and you ass at the same time. You can either look good in front of your fellas or you can feel the satisfaction of knowing you did the right thing. Trust me, from personal experience, today... I would choose the later.

andyaddict
Los Angeles

daydream

Thanks to all who have responded. I have read the replies several times, using them to spot-inventory where I am with this issue now. One thing I've realized is a mistake in my original post. I said I wasn't getting any better with this. Now I can see the progress. All the same feelings are still evident (pain, disappointment, anger, resentment, etc), but they aren't as strong or as controlling as they were a few weeks ago. I'm just frustrated that i'm not "over it" yet. Some interesting questions were asked in the replies. I've been thinking on those. One of my answers is, of course, that I'll not engage in a secret relationship again, no matter how temporary, no matter how good the reasons sound and no matter how much I trust that person. On my gratitude list for today: If this was meant to happen, I'm grateful that it happened when it did. I'm grateful I wasn't a newcomer and I'm grateful it didn't happen after years in the relationship.

Cap3

Daydream,methinks your doing the effective thing here,by NOT,playing a part in ...his....sickness.He is NOT showing anyone who you are.But who he is.Peoples, eyes and hears are on him,not you.And folks will make up their own minds,regardless,if you try to defend yourself.Thing is,that you are still being hurt by all of this.So much so that you shake.i have a "troll" also...Dont we all?lol.I just dont feed the fires.And when i let her get to me,{not showing her that i do},i write her all that im feeling on paper,and then ripping it up.I am the problem,not her.She is just sick right now,and this will pass.its myself i need to work on here.Because there will be more folks just like her that comes into my life.And i need to,find harmony,peace,within myself no matter what,andother says,or, does.All she is hurting really is my pride,and ultra ego.She cannot hurt me without my own permission.This is where i need to look into.The root and causes of my hurt.Eventually she has let go,of all her stuff for now.because i in no way played any part into---her----stuff.Gets boring when tricks dont work.Im sure she has found another to troll...lol..Big Book,say that perhaps they "too" are spitually sick,ask,how can i be of service>>.Im not there ---yet-----smile...am working on it though.
Pray for those who i have cjosen to allow them to hurt me.its a choice.I can chose not to be hurt,and asking God to help me,with this.And heck,anything that i do say to them,will never change them,so why bother..lol
Thanks for letting me share,
keep on,keeping on.In prayer you will know,the answers.
God Bless,and take care!!!!!!!!!