2dayzmuse

I'm pretty sure I know what you'll think about this. I just wanted your thoughts on it. I'm shocked and dismayed.

Here is the scenario: One of our homegroup members accused another of tape recording our meeting last Thursday. I never noticed anything out of the ordinary, but wasn't paying much attention to what the accused member was doing. I might add he was sitting right next to me. However, the accusing party, how do I say...well...I'll just add he is quite interesting said he saw him take a mini recorder, pushed some buttons then slipped it into his jacket pocket. After the meeting, he supposedly took it out and rewound it.

If it is true, I have to wonder what would possess him to do such a thing? I certainly hope it isn't true. I would be very disappointed if it was. Of course, the members that have alcohol related courst issues are up in arms and paranoid. I can't say where I blame them. One is going to speak with his lawyer about it. I have my own paranoid thoughts swirling around in my head.

This is a pretty heavy duty allegation. Anonymity and trust are tossed out the window with something like this. Of course, the member wasn't at the meeting tonight to ask what is the deal here? I don't know and I don't understand the reasoning behind this. What was he thinking? I'm getting ahead of my self here. I hope it is all a huge misunderstanding. He is going to school to become a drug and alcohol counselor. Maybe he was recording for work assignments? Hopefully it was just a not thinking moment. Clearing he wasn't being very sneaky about it. I'm grasping at straws trying to understand. Bottom line, what about tradition 12?

12. Anonymity is the spiritual foundation of all our traditions, ever reminding us to place principles before personalities.

Who you see here and what you hear here, stays here.

Again, I hope this was a big misunderstanding.

babeekj

I say believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
Me personaly if I didn't see someone do something I never fall in line behind the mob behind the guy who said he did.

2dayzmuse

I know that is the right approach. I'm just a little stymied right now. He will have every chance to answer to this allegation. The whole thing just seems so bizzare.

Cap3

There is nothing you can do,.Its over.Whether its true or not,your not feeling safe,and this is very important,for you and those who wish to keep their anonymity.At your next group consciouness meeting,you may want to,,bring this up without mentioning any names.Because no one knows for sure,who did what,or even if they did it.Suggestion only,if i may,Then at every meeting,,the chair can remind folks about anonymity,suggesting that all recorders,little cameras,phones,all be turned off during the meeting.And not taken out of their pocket/purse,while in the meetings.If they really need to use these,things,please go outside,use them and come back,when they are finished..If someone see,s that another is pulling these out of their pocket/purse,let them be called upon it right away,even stoping the meeting,if have to.And let this be known that this will happen,before the meeting starts.
I may sound extream,here.But its important that folks feel safe,at meetings.Today this wouldnt bother me.I dont care,who knows im at meetings.Im grateful to be there.But this wasnt so,when i was a newcomer.I wanted my anonymity,big time.
What ive suggested above,take what ya want to,and leave the rest.Let your group consciounes,decide,whats best.

fraankie

my dad used to say that
"believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear"
so
even if it were true
i doubt if he got anything but garbled voices
even then what would he do with it
don't project
ask the guy or call him
i mean, if anything malicious were going on
all someone would have to do
is go to a meeting
and then what
are newspapers going to start publishing names?
is he going to be on the jerry springer show?
does anyone even care who attends...neighbors, relatives?

something i noticed way back when
was even on talk shows
when they have the celebrity brat packs
it was always
"...and i'm in a 12 step program......'
that was it
no mention of AA / NA / OA.etc.
no "meetings makers make it"
or slogans buzzed around by the panel people
so
even if he did tape the meeting
it's not going anywhere
except maybe
the guy will throw it in a drawer with his socks

2dayzmuse

This incident hasn't been proven yet, so I can speculate all I want and it wouldn't do any good. But, if it were true...then what? What about the principle of the thing? What about broken trust? I could care less what is on that tape. I have nothing to hide. Like I mentioned before, I hope it is a misunderstanding. Time will tell...

I posted this to see how other's would feel if a member recorded one of their meetings. Since this hasn't been proven, let's turn this into a hypothetical situation. So far...the concensus seems to be no big deal. Hmmmm...I have to wonder if the table's were turned if opinions would differ? I feel a feeling of betrayal to a certain extent. To me, recording a meeting is not cool.

I appreciate you responses. Our Homegroup will take care of this, that won't be a problem. I'm just curious how you would feel if a member did that in one of your meetings. Keeping the principle's in mind, would you be offended or think so what, no big deal?

fraankie

they do have recordings of Bill W. qualifications
and about a hundred other speakers
i saw them at an AA spiritual breakfast

i wouldn't like it
have a business meeting
get someone to find out the truth
and
then approach the guy
but
don't blow it out of proportion


best
fraankie

2dayzmuse

Thanks Fraankie. Yeah, we will take care of this. As far as blowing it out of proportion...I'm afraid that could happen. I'm not the one anyone has to worry about. Others however? They have a bone to pick and other concerns. I might add that there is a difference between having a comversation taped and being aware of it and having it taped unknowingly. Just my thoughts...

Take care.

lulu70

That is the part that would worry me. I don't think I would mind if someone recorded me at a meeting, especially if it was for some sort of research project, but I would expect anonymity to be honored (i.e. no names used in the paper) and I would want to know about it ahead of time!!!! Seems like if the guy was in school to be an alcohol and drug abuse counselor he would know that, but there's no telling. Sometimes people just don't think.

jlo34

I have been at meetings where the speaker was taped (with the speaker's consent, of course). I have been at meetings (open discussion) where students from the health care field have come in and sat down with note books and written madly while people were talking. Generally, in our community, if we see someone "new" or someone with the means of "breaking anonymity; pen/pencil & paper, etc - someone will ask them what they are using that for. Then there will be a group conscious regarding the matter; before the meeting continues.

I will admit that I don't feel completely comfortable when "non-members" are present at a discussion meeting. Whether it be someone's children; students; whatever. We have institutions that bring people to meetings and the drivers sometimes sit in on the meetings; only to find out at the end that they are not alcoholic. We then explain to them that they are not allowed to sit in unless they feel they have a problem with alcohol and have a desire not to drink.

Anonymity is a very delicate thing. Especially for persons who are new in recovery. Back when AA was first starting - they took great pains to protect their anonymity; due to the potential prejudice of the "outside world". Persons in high positions; business owners, etc. They needed their anonymity heavily protected or they could be ruined.

I don't believe that someone with a tape recorder "secretely" recording a meeting would be invited. I believe that there would be a lot of very uncomfortable people and it could potentially drive some away from meetings. Anonymity is extremely important and that is why it is so heavily stressed in the traditions. This is a serious matter - but then don't try the person - assume innocent until proven guilty.

Just my thoughts.
Jen

CarolD

I know secret taping is wrong. In or out of AA.

collinsmi

I agree Carol. Was the member confronted directly?

Love the June Cleaver avatar by the way, too bad she's not waving a bloody knife around!

FriendofBill

We then explain to them that they are not allowed to sit in

Please remember that there are no rules in AA, only suggestions, steps included.
AA has no police, therefore, its a self-monitoring system.

Brookie

I wouldn't blow it out of proportion either, but I definitely would take it seriously. In my mind, it is a very substantial violation of trust. Things get said in the meetings every day in the interest of honesty and recovery that could cost people their jobs, families, and sometimes their freedom. If it's true, something like this undermines people's faith in the program, and could have devastating personal costs to individuals in the program depending on where the tape winds up. Maybe it will wind up at the bottom of a sock drawer, and maybe it won't, but either way I think it needs to be addressed.

All due respect to Friend of Bill, I don't think the fact that "there are no rules in AA" means that people can secretly violate a cornerstone of the program with no consequences other than a potentially guilty conscience. If someone's not willing to respect the anonymity rule, I think they should move on.

Mogqua

Concerning paranoia:
Tape recordings are considered to be hearsay and the vast majority of judges will not allow them to be even played in court.
Here in California, BOTH parties must be aware of and consent to the recording and any that record without that consent can be charged criminally and civilly.

So you shouldn't worry much unless you shared about a plan to commit a future crime or one that has not run out on the statues of limitations.
Even then, it could only be of interest to the police or DA and chances are they wouldn't take it seriously or even care to listen to it either as that would put them in awkward legal positions too.

Now what you can do is learn from the experience and add a statement to your meeting prohibiting notepads and tape recorders.
This can be done easily and it does work.

At one meeting I use to attend, we got many students that were required to do three months of meetings for their assignments.
When the statement was read, pads were shut and recorders were taken to their car.
Of course, that group was a little scarier than most and intimidated them easily.
The group was largely, lawyers, bikers and punk rockers.

Dan

Must have made for interesting group conscience meetings

Brookie

Not to nitpick, but that's not how the hearsay rule works in most states. An out-of-court admission by a party to a civil or criminal proceeding is generally admissible despite the hearsay rule. I can't speak to California rules on the point, but that's generally what you'll see. Also, different rules apply to what police or other agents of the state can do and what an individual can do. The fourth and fifth amendment protections that limit the things a police officer can do to obtain incriminating information do not apply to general citizens, and evidence typically won't be excluded on that basis. As you point out, the person who obtained the tape (if that's what happened) may have committed a crime in doing so, but it doesn't necessarily follow that a court would conclude that a tape has no evidentiary value and exclude it on that basis. It just means the taper may have put his own neck in a noose too.

But a tape doesn't have to appear in court to be dangerous to an individual or to the program. First, it erodes the trust of people in the program, no matter what happens to it. Second, it could be extremely damaging without getting within 100 miles of a courtroom or a police officer. Just to cite one example, you don't have to hang around AA for long to hear people discuss marital infidelities, profound sexual issues, or other highly personal information that would be embarrasing in any context, and could destroy a marriage if played back to a spouse. Another example, I can't remember how many times I've heard of people confessing to drinking or getting high at work. Again, that's embarrasing and could easily lead to the loss of a job. Finally, I don't know about you, but I do not assume that every person I've ever sat in a room with has nothing but altruistic feelings towards me.

So yeah, I would take it very seriously. Doesn't mean that this guy intends to do anyone harm (although that could happen even if his intentions are good), but I think most alcoholics and addicts would be rightfully alarmed to find out that others were secretly taping them when they share.

2dayzmuse

I agree wholeheartedly Joe. The legalities, I could care less about them, but I don't have issues pending in court. Someone who did would certainly have concerns. The lack of trust and his disregards towards the principles is what bothers me. It's the act of secretly recording that burns me. Why? We may be closer to finding out what the skinny is. Tomorow our homegroup meets. He may or may not be there. I hope he is so he can address this issue and clear it up. If it isn't true, the allegations need to be put to rest.

Mogqua

Well, that would be a “nitpick,” as it focuses on a litigious mindset and not the situation at hand.

Recordings are known for being problematic and they are usually only given leeway in certain cases by certain judges.
This I know by the many hours I have endured in watching countless court cases in many venues and in the many discussions I’ve had with friends that are attorneys.

I didn’t say it was always this way but more often than not, they have no real legal value.

And debating it serves no purpose and can reach no reasonable conclusion.
There are other sites with those types of forums if legal debate is the real desire.

Certainly, other “worst-case” scenarios can be presented in real life situations, but to what end, as it can only create greater anxiety for something that cannot be undone.

Why worry over something not yet manifest?

What I was getting at more importantly, when kept in context, was that the time to be serious was when it was happening and there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it now except to learn from it and make appropriate changes in the format to keep it from happening again. Chances are, this is the real purpose of the incident.

Even confronting the individual after the fact is pointless.

Address the situation with right action and let the individual work their own program from that.

Paranoia and worry can have no other viable or constructive purpose here.

Letting the group grow by experience does.

Mogqua

A.K.A "The Dungeon Bloodbath" or on milder nights "A Simple Cluster F--"

They were very interesting and I realize now more than ever what a fantastic foundation they have given me in their relentless pursuit of program and society.

Nothing, but nothing has been it's equal.

Be Well