Fighting the negative rather than taking the hand of the positive
Mini Novel Post Writer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
Fighting the negative rather than taking the hand of the positive
Starting off by saying I agree with anyone's right to choose their method of sobriety as long as it works for them and they're happy to be sober.
Still, this ponderance comes up occasionally when reading posts.
I understand AVRT. I completely get it, the addictive voice. I've heard it and I'm sure many here have heard it.
Then, I read things such as someone who uses this method say that they can't get into AA because they aren't religious. They don't believe that there's something spiritual that can keep them from drinking.
With that being said how does believing in the presence of an imaginary character who sits in our heads talking us into drinking any different than believing that the acceptance of a higher power existing that can help stop us from drinking?
I guess it's the inability to give up running the show rather than trusting that by turning our will over that things will get better?
Why do we struggle so much with power? Letting go was hard for me but once I did I gained a far greater understanding of life than I've ever had.
I'm not sure if I'm right but for someone who once believed that full acceptance of spirituality would make me less of a person, on the contrary, I am far better of a person than I have ever been. It's a peacefulness unsurpassed.
How can someone say they don't think spirituality holds water but will fight with some horrific imaginary character that is trying to lead them to drink?
Somewhat the same concept isn't it? You're either choosing to give merit to something negative and fighting with it rather than accepting the hand of something positive that will supply you with a greater peacefulness and understanding than you ever thought possible.
Not saying anyone is right or wrong. My thought process is we are all energy and you can either feed the negative or positive.
Still, this ponderance comes up occasionally when reading posts.
I understand AVRT. I completely get it, the addictive voice. I've heard it and I'm sure many here have heard it.
Then, I read things such as someone who uses this method say that they can't get into AA because they aren't religious. They don't believe that there's something spiritual that can keep them from drinking.
With that being said how does believing in the presence of an imaginary character who sits in our heads talking us into drinking any different than believing that the acceptance of a higher power existing that can help stop us from drinking?
I guess it's the inability to give up running the show rather than trusting that by turning our will over that things will get better?
Why do we struggle so much with power? Letting go was hard for me but once I did I gained a far greater understanding of life than I've ever had.
I'm not sure if I'm right but for someone who once believed that full acceptance of spirituality would make me less of a person, on the contrary, I am far better of a person than I have ever been. It's a peacefulness unsurpassed.
How can someone say they don't think spirituality holds water but will fight with some horrific imaginary character that is trying to lead them to drink?
Somewhat the same concept isn't it? You're either choosing to give merit to something negative and fighting with it rather than accepting the hand of something positive that will supply you with a greater peacefulness and understanding than you ever thought possible.
Not saying anyone is right or wrong. My thought process is we are all energy and you can either feed the negative or positive.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,903
Lady Blue,your post reminds me of this:
This all meant, of course, that we had
substituted negative for positive thinking. After we came to
A.A., we had to recognize that this trait had been an ego feeding
proposition. In belaboring the sins of some religious
people, we could feel superior to all of them.
Moreover, we could avoid looking at some of our own
shortcomings. Self-righteousness, the very thing that we
had contemptuously condemned in others, was our own besetting
evil. This phony form of respectability was our
undoing, so far as faith was concerned. But finally, driven
to A.A., we learned better.
“As psychiatrists have often observed, defiance is the
outstanding characteristic of many an alcoholic. So it's not
strange that lots of us have had our day at defying God
Himself.
Sometimes it's because God has not delivered us
the good things of life which we specified, as a greedy child
m makes an impossible list for Santa Claus. More often,
though, we had met up with some major calamity, and to
our way of thinking lost out because God deserted us. The
girl we wanted to marry had other notions; we prayed God
that she'd change her mind, but she didn't.
We prayed for
healthy children, and were presented with sick ones, or
none at all. We prayed for promotions at business, and none
came. Loved ones, upon whom we heartily depended, were
taken from us by so-called acts of God. Then we became
drunkards, and asked God to stop that. But nothing happened.
This was the unkindest cut of all. 'Damn this faith
business!' we said.
“When we encountered A.A,, the fallacy of our defiance
was revealed. At no time had we asked what God's
will was for us; instead we had been telling Him what it
ought to be. No man, we saw, could believe in God and
defy Him, too. Belief meant reliance, not; defiance.
Bill W
step 2 12x12
This all meant, of course, that we had
substituted negative for positive thinking. After we came to
A.A., we had to recognize that this trait had been an ego feeding
proposition. In belaboring the sins of some religious
people, we could feel superior to all of them.
Moreover, we could avoid looking at some of our own
shortcomings. Self-righteousness, the very thing that we
had contemptuously condemned in others, was our own besetting
evil. This phony form of respectability was our
undoing, so far as faith was concerned. But finally, driven
to A.A., we learned better.
“As psychiatrists have often observed, defiance is the
outstanding characteristic of many an alcoholic. So it's not
strange that lots of us have had our day at defying God
Himself.
Sometimes it's because God has not delivered us
the good things of life which we specified, as a greedy child
m makes an impossible list for Santa Claus. More often,
though, we had met up with some major calamity, and to
our way of thinking lost out because God deserted us. The
girl we wanted to marry had other notions; we prayed God
that she'd change her mind, but she didn't.
We prayed for
healthy children, and were presented with sick ones, or
none at all. We prayed for promotions at business, and none
came. Loved ones, upon whom we heartily depended, were
taken from us by so-called acts of God. Then we became
drunkards, and asked God to stop that. But nothing happened.
This was the unkindest cut of all. 'Damn this faith
business!' we said.
“When we encountered A.A,, the fallacy of our defiance
was revealed. At no time had we asked what God's
will was for us; instead we had been telling Him what it
ought to be. No man, we saw, could believe in God and
defy Him, too. Belief meant reliance, not; defiance.
Bill W
step 2 12x12
Mini Novel Post Writer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
Tommyh, thank you for that!
One thing I am perpetually amazed at since I've "understood" and let go is that all the things that were so deeply bothering me in my life are beginning to dissipate. All the things I was fighting and trying to control were just continuing to become more insurmountable. Since I have chosen to hand all that over to the God of my understanding I am totally flabbergasted at how every single one of those situations are being righted without any action from me at all outside of trusting and believing. I can no longer deny that there is something greater than all of us showing the way if we choose to accept. I have no other explanation.
Is this way right for everyone? No. But I will spend every day being grateful for this blessing.
“When we encountered A.A,, the fallacy of our defiance
was revealed. At no time had we asked what God's
will was for us; instead we had been telling Him what it
ought to be. No man, we saw, could believe in God and
defy Him, too. Belief meant reliance, not; defiance.
was revealed. At no time had we asked what God's
will was for us; instead we had been telling Him what it
ought to be. No man, we saw, could believe in God and
defy Him, too. Belief meant reliance, not; defiance.
Is this way right for everyone? No. But I will spend every day being grateful for this blessing.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Pacific Coast
Posts: 785
I'm far from being an expert on either AA or AVRT, but I can take a crack at expressing my own understanding, limited though it may be.
I agree that if you distill the concepts of AVRT and Higher Power to their essence, it turns out they accomplish much the same thing, except the approaches come from different perspectives.
First of all, according to my understanding of AVRT, it does not promote belief in the Addictive Voice (or "The Beast," as it's sometimes called) as actually being an external entity. It's just a convenient way of distinguishing thoughts that originate from one's addiction (one's "lizard brain") from thoughts that originate from the higher self.
Similarly, AA's Higher Power isn't necessarily an external entity either. The Big Book itself refers to "an unsuspected inner resource." Most people simply find the construct of the traditional Western "God" (as it's put in most of the book) to be what they're most comfortable with.
In both cases, the point is to move beyond the old patterns of thinking and behavior that always led back to drinking. As it's often said, it's tough to solve your problems using the same brain that created them. Both the Higher Power and AVRT concepts offer workarounds which are sometimes visualized as external entities, even though they need not be external in order for the concepts to work.
In both cases, the result is the removal of the problem.
Whether an individual identifies better with one approach or the other isn't necessarily inherently "positive" or "negative." It's just what appeals to that person's personality thanks to their particular blend of nature and nurture.
I don't feel like I got all of this particular pitch, but it's the best I can do at the moment.
I agree that if you distill the concepts of AVRT and Higher Power to their essence, it turns out they accomplish much the same thing, except the approaches come from different perspectives.
First of all, according to my understanding of AVRT, it does not promote belief in the Addictive Voice (or "The Beast," as it's sometimes called) as actually being an external entity. It's just a convenient way of distinguishing thoughts that originate from one's addiction (one's "lizard brain") from thoughts that originate from the higher self.
Similarly, AA's Higher Power isn't necessarily an external entity either. The Big Book itself refers to "an unsuspected inner resource." Most people simply find the construct of the traditional Western "God" (as it's put in most of the book) to be what they're most comfortable with.
In both cases, the point is to move beyond the old patterns of thinking and behavior that always led back to drinking. As it's often said, it's tough to solve your problems using the same brain that created them. Both the Higher Power and AVRT concepts offer workarounds which are sometimes visualized as external entities, even though they need not be external in order for the concepts to work.
In both cases, the result is the removal of the problem.
Whether an individual identifies better with one approach or the other isn't necessarily inherently "positive" or "negative." It's just what appeals to that person's personality thanks to their particular blend of nature and nurture.
I don't feel like I got all of this particular pitch, but it's the best I can do at the moment.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527 
Starting off by saying I agree with anyone's right to choose their method of sobriety as long as it works for them and they're happy to be sober.
The bold part in your post above, for example, is Addictive Voice, especially the "and they're happy to be sober" bit. The AV is creating a contingency out of thin air, and making abstinence dependent on happiness.
AVRT identifies that contingency as a potential reason to drink -- as the Addictive Voice.
Isn't that what the AV usually says, though? You're not happy being sober, so you may as well drink to feel better?
Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527
I understand AVRT. I completely get it, the addictive voice. I've heard it and I'm sure many here have heard it.
Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527
With that being said how does believing in the presence of an imaginary character who sits in our heads talking us into drinking any different than believing that the acceptance of a higher power existing that can help stop us from drinking?
The Beast is as real as the desire to drink or use, for that is essentially what it is. The AV is its human voice, heard in our thoughts, which forms a persona centered around the addictive mandate.
Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527
Not saying anyone is right or wrong. My thought process is we are all energy and you can either feed the negative or positive.
AVRT is a little like a sorting filter to separate out the thinking that sustains the addiction from everything else, and I've run across some AA's that use something similar, although with different terminology. Instead of I vs IT, they use HP vs Ego.
12 Step Recovered Alcoholic
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 6,613
Originally Posted by Algorithm
Instead of I vs IT, they use HP vs Ego.
I had issues with the god thing, and religion for that matter, though I think my attitude was based in ignorance and prejudice rather than any sane consideration of the facts. Supernatural beings performing tricks etc all sounded a bit weird as also does the concept of the AV and the "beast". I never exprienced the AV in any conscious way. I just drank, because that's what I did. I thought anyone who didn't was a bit strange. Really, it was my thinking that was a bit strange, a bit defective. A head full of scrambled eggs is how I felt.
I verses It was one of my final approaches. I liked the idea that I would have sufficient power to beat alcoholism, but my best thinking backed by the most powerful motivational factors was not sufficient. This was actually Ego vs HP. I will do it my way, HP stand back! Hp stood back, ego failed to win the day.
So I turned away from I and Ego (the false self). I saw I lacked the power, spiritual, intellectual, whatever you want to call it, and turned to a higher power.
Rapidly, it seems, the problem was removed, and I was able to rejoin the human race with all the trials and tribulations of life.
The AV, which hadn't been thought of back then, was completely silent, but since commencing this journey, hand in hand with the spirit of the universe, no serious thought of a drink has ever occurred to me. Problems disappear, my whole reaction to life has changed, see ninth and tenth step promises for amplification.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Interesting discussion 
As I always understood...the AV equates to what some of us choose to call Ego, and some of us choose to call King Alcohol. Cunning, baffling, powerful...without help it is too much.
The difference between AVRT and Surrender is pretty fundamental...one teaches you to recognise and fight this anthropomorphised foe...the other teaches you that you can't...so you better find another way around the problem
Both approaches require imagination I guess...and am open mind
P
As I always understood...the AV equates to what some of us choose to call Ego, and some of us choose to call King Alcohol. Cunning, baffling, powerful...without help it is too much.
The difference between AVRT and Surrender is pretty fundamental...one teaches you to recognise and fight this anthropomorphised foe...the other teaches you that you can't...so you better find another way around the problem
Both approaches require imagination I guess...and am open mind
P
Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 28,690
add to that.
The negative in me...I am a bad person, I deserve my lot in life. Blah,blah.
I have come a long way in the last 17 months. I listen to my collective professional supports- from internationally recognised Burns specialists to my GP. ALL of them- the gym trainer, art teacher, psychologist, therapist, counsellor, AA sponsor, SMART facillitator- ALL of them say so.
So why do I not believe this about myself? Negative self esteem.
Logic dictates that everything that has been told/advised to me by these professionals is good and productive- I respect them So if I do not accept the POSITIVE from them, I am only cheating myself in a more productive recovery.
Getting there. Hard. That is what I really struggle with now.
The negative in me...I am a bad person, I deserve my lot in life. Blah,blah.
I have come a long way in the last 17 months. I listen to my collective professional supports- from internationally recognised Burns specialists to my GP. ALL of them- the gym trainer, art teacher, psychologist, therapist, counsellor, AA sponsor, SMART facillitator- ALL of them say so.
So why do I not believe this about myself? Negative self esteem.
Logic dictates that everything that has been told/advised to me by these professionals is good and productive- I respect them So if I do not accept the POSITIVE from them, I am only cheating myself in a more productive recovery.
Getting there. Hard. That is what I really struggle with now.
Mini Novel Post Writer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Maine
Posts: 3,649
I am grateful for all of you today. What a great discussion thread with some great insight.
Maybe a better wording is that I support anyone's method of sobriety if it honestly assists them in maintaining peace with the outcome. Realistically, we'd all look pretty silly if we were all running around happy 100% of the time. You can sometimes be unhappy but what you embark on to assist you in getting through to the desired result of remaining sober is a personal choice.
Mine happens to be my AA family and my HP.
Although sobriety can be a shared effort with others it's one of the most personal and spiritual journeys we take. Who knew life could be like this? If I did I would have been sober years ago. We all have to learn in our own time.
Maybe a better wording is that I support anyone's method of sobriety if it honestly assists them in maintaining peace with the outcome. Realistically, we'd all look pretty silly if we were all running around happy 100% of the time. You can sometimes be unhappy but what you embark on to assist you in getting through to the desired result of remaining sober is a personal choice.
Mine happens to be my AA family and my HP.
Although sobriety can be a shared effort with others it's one of the most personal and spiritual journeys we take. Who knew life could be like this? If I did I would have been sober years ago. We all have to learn in our own time.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by LadyBlue0527
Maybe a better wording is that I support anyone's method of sobriety if it honestly assists them in maintaining peace with the outcome. Realistically, we'd all look pretty silly if we were all running around happy 100% of the time. You can sometimes be unhappy but what you embark on to assist you in getting through to the desired result of remaining sober is a personal choice.
The nature of the world is not one of eternal bliss/rapture. I think we do people a disservice if we talk in a way that suggests everything is wonderful and we are wrapped in a blanket of eternal love
Good and bad occur. The only thing that makes them different is my perception...and my subsequent reaction. This I have learnt from practice of AAs 12 steps and I find the same message in so many other places.
If you fight the negative, or grasp for/fight to hold on to the positive you can end up in the same place...tension...dissatisfaction...resentment. Learning to accept and appreciate the world is the key I think.
Not sure if this is anything to do with what you were saying goes LadyB but it spoke to me!!
In terms of recovery methods...IMO in AA we learn to surrender to/stop fighting the negative and reach out to the positive...a power that helps us while our long term perspective...our ideas, emotions and attitudes...are rearranged. I think for some this is necessary...we that are unable to fight the negative of alcoholism without more powerful assistance.
Lots of other recovery methods may be similar in their long term aim, maybe different in their approach or just different in their language but personally I like to see the similarities.
P
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,111
Originally Posted by tomsteve
"Why do we struggle so much with power?"
for me, and it buggers me up when I know im practicing it, its the free will God gave me.
for me, and it buggers me up when I know im practicing it, its the free will God gave me.
What if Free Will doesn't necessarily mean rebellion? What if Free Will means knowing all of the options but still choosing that which we are supposed to do? What if staying in the correct path instead of reacting on instinct is the PRECISE definition of practising free will?
P
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 936
Someone a while ago pointed out on a thread just how similar AA is to AVRT. We just use different terminology.
For me personally, I needed this new idea of viewing God as a "friend", a "loving, healthy, parent". That was my saving grace in my recovery work in AA. I also think that helped me get rid of my "fleas" (that's the term used) from being raised by parents with personality disorders. God to me now personally is not the angry, to be feared, judgemental God from my childhood. He is a friend, a guider, a quiet strength, and above all else He loves me unconditionally. What can I say, this spiritual stuff was key for me. ;-)
I know in my heart if I had tried something like Buddhism (which I was planning to, before I found big book AA meetings) or AVRT, it would've been missing something--that key piece for me personally.
Then there's my husband. He's not in recovery, but if he was, I sense that AVRT or Buddhism would work better for him than AA. It's just because of the way his mind works. We've even had discussions about this, because I started going to church. And I found one that teaches about a loving God, not a feared, angry, punishing God.
If AVRT works for you, that's fantastic and I mean that whole-heartedly.
But if you need that "God-as-the-healthy-loving-friend/parent-you-never-had-but-wished-you-did", try AA out. My God doesn't abuse me, humiliate me, cause me pain on purpose and smirk evil-ly at me, punish me, rage at me personally, use me as a venting board to rage at about stuff other people did, talk my ear off, look to me to feed His ego, kick me when I'm down, or blame me. Discipline? Well yeah there's love in discipline but that's different than punishing. My God wants me to learn lessons and learn from my mistakes in a healthy way. He wants me to GROW. My God doesn't keep me down on purpose so He can metaphorically kick around and sh*t on. He also doesn't compare me to His other children. He's there to comfort me. If I knew this all as a child my life would've been a lot different. I know this paragraph is focused on how a parent treats a child, but maybe this statement my first sponsor said to me during my 4th step work will make more sense: "You are a child of God. When you finish this work, you will be an adult child of God." GROWTH. Connecting and seeking this new idea of God helped me to finally GROW. Anytime as a child that I tried to grow, I was like a plant being stomped on.
When I took my 3rd step with my sponsor, it was a white-light experience. I know this is not common. It was also temporary because I had to do the work to actually get a spiritual awakening, but it was the mustard seed that said, ''Centered, take a big sigh of relief because you're going to be ok now. I've gotcha. The insanity and unmanageability is going to finally stop."
But this is just my experience. I think it's great AVRT is out there for those who want something different. Follow your heart, it will show you the way. One of my favorite female circuit speakers using the term "the beast" and I wonder if she combined AVRT with AA as part of her journey.
For me personally, I needed this new idea of viewing God as a "friend", a "loving, healthy, parent". That was my saving grace in my recovery work in AA. I also think that helped me get rid of my "fleas" (that's the term used) from being raised by parents with personality disorders. God to me now personally is not the angry, to be feared, judgemental God from my childhood. He is a friend, a guider, a quiet strength, and above all else He loves me unconditionally. What can I say, this spiritual stuff was key for me. ;-)
I know in my heart if I had tried something like Buddhism (which I was planning to, before I found big book AA meetings) or AVRT, it would've been missing something--that key piece for me personally.
Then there's my husband. He's not in recovery, but if he was, I sense that AVRT or Buddhism would work better for him than AA. It's just because of the way his mind works. We've even had discussions about this, because I started going to church. And I found one that teaches about a loving God, not a feared, angry, punishing God.
If AVRT works for you, that's fantastic and I mean that whole-heartedly.
But if you need that "God-as-the-healthy-loving-friend/parent-you-never-had-but-wished-you-did", try AA out. My God doesn't abuse me, humiliate me, cause me pain on purpose and smirk evil-ly at me, punish me, rage at me personally, use me as a venting board to rage at about stuff other people did, talk my ear off, look to me to feed His ego, kick me when I'm down, or blame me. Discipline? Well yeah there's love in discipline but that's different than punishing. My God wants me to learn lessons and learn from my mistakes in a healthy way. He wants me to GROW. My God doesn't keep me down on purpose so He can metaphorically kick around and sh*t on. He also doesn't compare me to His other children. He's there to comfort me. If I knew this all as a child my life would've been a lot different. I know this paragraph is focused on how a parent treats a child, but maybe this statement my first sponsor said to me during my 4th step work will make more sense: "You are a child of God. When you finish this work, you will be an adult child of God." GROWTH. Connecting and seeking this new idea of God helped me to finally GROW. Anytime as a child that I tried to grow, I was like a plant being stomped on.
When I took my 3rd step with my sponsor, it was a white-light experience. I know this is not common. It was also temporary because I had to do the work to actually get a spiritual awakening, but it was the mustard seed that said, ''Centered, take a big sigh of relief because you're going to be ok now. I've gotcha. The insanity and unmanageability is going to finally stop."
But this is just my experience. I think it's great AVRT is out there for those who want something different. Follow your heart, it will show you the way. One of my favorite female circuit speakers using the term "the beast" and I wonder if she combined AVRT with AA as part of her journey.
It`s ok to stay sober
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Central NC
Posts: 20,903
I know one thing,some thoughts come into my head which are truth,and some are lies.Lies usually look like,lets grab a drink,you`re no good,a failure,everyone thinks you are stupid, etc
I don`t have to believe those lies
my sponsor likes to say,those lies come from somewhere in his sub-conscience mind
I don`t have to believe those lies
my sponsor likes to say,those lies come from somewhere in his sub-conscience mind
Guest
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 936
Originally Posted by Tommyh
I know one thing,some thoughts come into my head which are truth,and some are lies.Lies usually look like,lets grab a drink,you`re no good,a failure,everyone thinks you are stupid, etc
I don`t have to believe those lies
my sponsor likes to say,those lies come from somewhere in his sub-conscience mind
I don`t have to believe those lies
my sponsor likes to say,those lies come from somewhere in his sub-conscience mind
My AA BBSS sponsor would continue by saying "Those lies in your sub-conscience mind were put there in childhood by people who were spiritually sick."
Those lies and delusions you tell yourself are based on fear, and it's time to let them go because they are not truth. God is truth. God would never talk to you that way, and He doesn't want you talking to yourself or others that way."
Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: northern michigan. not the U.P.
Posts: 15,281
Originally Posted by paulokes
Here's a philosophical quandary for you Tom that I heard recently...
What if Free Will doesn't necessarily mean rebellion? What if Free Will means knowing all of the options but still choosing that which we are supposed to do? What if staying in the correct path instead of reacting on instinct is the PRECISE definition of practising free will?
P
What if Free Will doesn't necessarily mean rebellion? What if Free Will means knowing all of the options but still choosing that which we are supposed to do? What if staying in the correct path instead of reacting on instinct is the PRECISE definition of practising free will?
P
i have the free will to chose which path i take today.
ladyblue was referring to a struggle. that struggle occurs,for me, when i am practicing my free will.
use Gods will= no struggle and choosing which im supposed to..use my will=struggle.
which makes me think:
nothing,absolutely nothing happens in Gods world by mistake.
hhhmmm.....maybe everything is actually Gods will? even therebellion?
oye!
my head hurts.
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 847
Originally Posted by Gottalife
Supernatural beings performing tricks etc all sounded a bit weird as also does the concept of the AV and the "beast". I never exprienced the AV in any conscious way. I just drank, because that's what I did. I thought anyone who didn't was a bit strange. Really, it was my thinking that was a bit strange, a bit defective. A head full of scrambled eggs is how I felt.
Once big problems begin to mount as a result of the addiction, that subjective experience of AV as self may begin to break down, and the addicted person may begin to suspect that something is going on, but they may not put their finger on just what that something might be.
In that case, the breakdown of the AV experienced as self will usually be very short lived, and if they don't manage to clearly recognize what is going on, the AV will once again appear to be self in short order. They will usually drink again. Until the next catastrophe.
The premise behind AVRT is to maintain the separation between AV and self. If you recognize the AV as separate from self, you will abstain, and if you fail to recognize it, you will probably drink. Is recognition therefore a contingency on abstinence, and hence, Addictive Voice?
Perhaps, but although AVRT presumes the existence of free will -- the power of choice -- it is not simply 'swearing off', or even 'choosing not to drink today', either.
I agree with paulokes about there being a fundamental difference between the AVRT approach and Surrender. This is where AVRT and the 12-Step program diverge, and AVRT is effectively Step Zero.
I also agree with there being various names out there for the Addictive Voice. The difference is that in AVRT, the AV is explicitly defined, and is considered the prime mover.
Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
