LiveInPeace

I get that amends are really all about us changing, specifically our behavior, actions, responses, etc. But how does one learn to change these things around toxic people?

Are we supposed to still be around sick or toxic people, or are there some people we are supposed to walk away from to protect ourselves? This is very confusing. There are some people, when you give them kindness, love, and tolerance, that they take advantage of that or treat your worse.

I wish the big book included a section about kindness, love, and tolerance, but within reason and with setting boundaries if necessary.

Anyone have thoughts, experience, etc they can share?

Friend Of Bill

Good morning actually on page 83 it suggests each morning in meditation that we ask for him to show us the way of patience tolerance kindliness and love. So what does that mean well it means that we have just followed the previous steps we have faced our past in step 4 we did the resentments cause and effects the fourth column looking at where we were selfish dishonest self-seeking and afraid a fear inventory and a inventory then got rid of it in 6 & 7 so we faced and got rid of the things in our selves which were blocking us from the sunlight of the Spirit we did step 5 we sat down for a long talk this is where we begin to see the patterns of our behavior how fear controlled our lives in the sex inventory in page 69 3rd paragraph the first question whom did I hurt we see how our behavior and conduct hurt everyone's lives we touched by doing step 4 out of the big book we're able to see exactly to what extent we harmed an injured others our fourth step is our 8th step list it is our ninth step reference book okay so how do we make amends simply means to change not to say I'm sorry by working the prior steps now we are aware and have an understanding how are fear and selfishness destroyed our relationships with people never caring about the feelings of others only getting and doing what we wanted when we wanted the hopes of step 4 was to be convinced that our conception of God could remove the self which had blocked us from him I don't know what you think about a higher power naa you get to choose your own conception that's why I'm not saying the word a lot but the first step talks about alcohol the rest of the steps help us perform spiritual surgery to unblock ourselves from the sunlight of the Spirit after step 5 second paragraph on page 75 are the step 5 promises they happen after your 5th step you sit for an hour do six and seven 8 is already finished now we make amends and live 10 11 and 12 a day at a time we discover one day at a time on page 84 third paragraph tells us we vigorously commence this way of living as we clean up the past so in step 10 our sanity is returned the problem is removed we begin to sense the flow of his spirit into us if we have carefully followed directions to this point that's the bottom of page 85 six sentences up from the bottom are thinking is cleared of wrong motives so now we have a spiritual awakening we have the tools to not react to life the way we used to now some of the best amends we can make the people is to simply leave them alone prior to doing an we say the seventh step prayer that's on page 76 second paragraph and bring our higher power with us were there to sweep off our side of the street we are now properly armed with the facts about ourselves we let people know I'm aware that because I was so afraid I acted this certain way to you that I hurt you I was being very selfish it wasn't my intention and I would do my best not to repeat it again the wording is optional you get the idea demands that we have to make for things that we didn't do you're probably asking what do I mean well for instance the amends of omission you needed me and I wasn't there for you I put other things ahead of you weather was drugs alcohol work I didn't think of your needs and for that I'm sorry and we work on changing that being there for people on page 82 11 sentences from the bottom it tells us that we should sit with the family with our wives mothers husbands and mothers and tell them thank you as well for putting up and being there for us our behavior will convince people more than our words step 9 says we must not shrink we must take the bit into our teeth we have decided to go to any lengths for victory over alcohol for a spiritual experience we must not balk at this step we learn to know what people to just simply stay away from our sanity our peace recovery comes first we learn to trust and rely on are higher power our very lives depend on the constant thought of others and how we may help meet their needs I hope this was a little helpful... like it says on the top of page 63 the step 3 promises if we keep close to him and perform his work well he will provide what we need

LiveInPeace

Thank you for laying that all out there, I appreciate having that all summed up.

I'm just awfully confused about how to deal with toxic family members. I don't owe them an amends per my sponsor. I may owe them an amends perhaps due to my own survival skills due to their emotional abuse, but I can't make sense of any of this. I was told point blank I don't owe an amends to people who were abusive. Problem is, in the case of emotional/mental abuse, I keep seeking reassurance that that is in fact what it is. It's hard to explain.

It's hard to deal with staying away from people if they are that spiritually sick and could put my recovery in jeopardy, if they are family, due to the tremendous amount of guilt and loss I feel over it, because they are family members, as well as the confusion of, "Am I right in staying away from them, or is this my fault again; I'm not learning how to respond to them properly?"

To what degree do we take the bit in the teeth, and to what degree do we walk away because it's not deserving? I didn't do anything that terrible to these people, other than not act exactly the way they wanted me to act.

Am I "shrinking", or am I protecting myself? This is so confusing. What aren't I getting??? There's something I am missing and it's frustrating.

Friend Of Bill

Well I'm no therapist all I have is my personal experience and if someone is not on your amends list then obviously you don't need to make amends I was molested when I was 9 and when I was 12 I was raped by a man when I was 22 I had resentment and when I did step 4 I was able to look at why I was angry and then the fourth column where I was selfish dishonest self-seeking and afraid someone might say how do you have a part when you were the victim well it's simple where was I selfish I didn't want to be raped where was I dishonest how did I justify being angry what lie did I believe well I told myself I never hurt anybody where was I self-seeking what action did I take in that resentment I stuffed those feelings what was I afraid of I was afraid that others would find out what would you think of me if you knew that I was raped well when I discussed it and step 5 I learn to forgive myself that my Higher Power forgave me and I can forgive them no I don't make amends to them your sponsor is good counsel maybe a couple trusted friends who have been through the exact same thing we learn to find balance if we love our family yet their nuts we spend time with them and we know when it's time to leave I don't know if that was any help this internet stuff is pretty cool cuz you get a lot of ideas maybe God will speak through one of us

Fly N Buy

Live in Peace - you have zero obligation to be around toxic people - family or otherwise. Anyone who tells you differently is confused, imo.

Live and let live doesn't not include allowing others to take up space in your head with their mess. Now in practicality, at times maybe we feel it best to spend a small amount of time with family who are "toxic" - that depends on the degree of toxicity I suppose - that's open to your interpretation.

Do not feel compelled nor obligated. It is a matter of your choice/decision to make - the wisdom to know the difference

Glad you're here posting!

Fly N Buy

This is a very unusual interpretation of doing a 4th step in looking at selfish behavior. One is not selfish because you didn't want to be abused!

Keep coming back......

Friend Of Bill

Actually it's not my interpretation it's the directions in the book Alcoholics Anonymous the only book that has the directions for the 12 steps the fourth column or as they become known the turnarounds are the key to the future they're the exact nature of the wrongs we have to admit in five and what we asked to be removed in 6 and 7 it's what we continue to watch for on a daily basis in steps 10 and 11 I can understand why you miss understood that but that's okay not many people are familiar with the book Alcoholics Anonymous that's why I try to carry the message whenever I can

tomsteve

i have to accept people the way they are but dont have to allow unacceptable behavior around me.
i used to think love and tolerance of others being our code meant i had to allow unacceptable behavior around me. but it doesnt.
i am allowed to remove sick and toxic people from my life.
i proved i can have no serenity and peace with toxic people in my life and it causes my life to be unmanagable.

sugarbear1

pages 66-67......and talk with your sponsor......great topic for a meeting, too....experience, strength, and hope.....

LiveInPeace

Thanks for sharing that. I am so sorry you went through that. :-( I just realized "stuffed down my feelings" didn't come out on my turnarounds and it should have. It sounds like you got amazing recovery and clarity out of your step work.

I'm wondering if because my sponsor didn't go through family stuff that I did, that she just doesn't got it. My therapist is giving me advice. I just don't want it to be therapist vs sponsor, you know?

One of the guys at my home group always said that you don't make amends to someone who abused you.

I wish I had friends who had similar stories. Unfortunately my friends and my husband's family members are usually puzzled by my relationship with my family members, and I have to let that go.

I thought I forgave them in Step 5, but I still have unresolved anger and I'm not sure why. Maybe I didn't go deep enough, although my 4th step was very thorough.

I like your point about spending time with family and then knowing when to leave. I've gotten good at that with the telephone, but not yet in person.

Thank you for sharing your recovery with me.

LiveInPeace

It's a special way of doing the 4th step. We look at "Selfish" as "What did I want, and what I didn't want." For example, if the resentment was: He abused me, selfish would be: "I wanted him to be kind. I didn't want him to abuse me." It's not the way we normally think of the word "selfish".

Working the turnarounds (selfish, dishonest, self-seeking, frightened) was an amazing way to see "our part" in the resentment. Not our part in what happened, but our part in our resentment. I've never done anything else like that. I was able to see that a lot of people in my life acted in ways that I didn't want them to. So I had to quit playing God.

LiveInPeace

You are doing a beautiful job carrying the message.

LiveInPeace

Thanks, tomsteve!! This is exactly what I needed to hear. i used to think love and tolerance of others being our code meant i had to allow unacceptable behavior around me. but it doesnt. --> That spoke volumes!!!

Did you find that you tried to be around sick/toxic people, tried not to accept their unacceptable behavior, and ended up removing them from your life? Or did you find that when you changed and stopped accepting their unacceptable behavior, that they changed?

Thank you so much!

schnappi99

I was listening to the Dave & Charlie big book study series and IIRC they touched on the amends to an abuser issue. As I recall, the idea is these amends are not to forgive the abuser or the abuse, but to relieve oneself from living in anger & hate of the abuser ie turning him/her into a jailer.

Fly N Buy

Glad you are getting the message that works for you!

LiveInPeace

I'm just not sure my sponsor gets how these family members are, because she's not a trained psychologist or anything. I can't expect her to. But it's frustrating and confusing my recovery. Some people you just can't give tolerance, pity, and patience to, because they will take advantage of it.

You're right, that would be a great topic for a meeting.

LiveInPeace

Thanks Fly N Buy! Different things work for different people I guess!

LiveInPeace

Thanks, Schnappi! Where can I get access to the Dave & Charlie big book step series? I'd like to listen to this.

This is very interesting. I definitely still have a lot of anger toward these abusers, which surprises me, because I thought I forgave them during steps 4 and 5. I know I need to be free of anger in order to get well, and I feel like I am going backward instead of forward now.

Fly N Buy

Yes - happy, joyous and free for all!! I'll read some more about the process/term turnarounds as you posted. A quick glance appears that Is it started in 80's in MA but isn't a historical AA deal.

I like the Back to Basic method - like you said, whatever works!

Best of luck and good wishes

LiveInPeace

Thanks for your kindness, Fly N By! I hope you my post about the "turnarounds" didn't come across as my being a know it all. My intention was just to share information I am very excited about because of how much it helped me.

I think my sponsor doesn't understand what I mean by these family members being "toxic". Some types of abuse are much harder to explain than others, and she's not a psychologist so I get that she doesn't understand.

I am so relieved you mentioned the "taking head up in your head" thing. Last night, I made amends to a family member. The actual amend last like a minute, and it was extremely well received and then they moved on in conversation. But it was the rest of the conversation, when other family members were brought up, regarding my not visiting them or calling them. I spent the rest of the evening dizzy--physically dizzy--because all the old messages and crap were coming back and the family members were taking up a lot of space in my head.

When I tried to tell my sponsor that the amends did not go well and my husband was concerned I was on the verge of a nervous breakdown or something, she got annoyed and said "So you're on the verge of a nervous breakdown because the amends didn't go the way you want?? Because the amends didn't go perfect??" That was so not what this was about. I have no way of explaining to her what emotional and mental abuse does to ones mind.

The only reason I've been successful in therapy and in my step work recovery the last few years, is because it was strongly suggested to me in therapy to remove myself from them. And now the thought of being pulled back into their tornado is just too much.

The question still remains....is it my response/reaction to their toxicity that still is the problem, or is it that I need to continue to distance myself from their toxicity to stay well?