krazyjim

I don't mean to cross-post but I originally put that rather long post in Relationship and parenting. It got no replies over several days. I really need some advice.

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I am writing as briefly as possible but it is a long story. In 1987 I met a wonderful young lady. I remember the day like yesterday as I looked into her emerald eyes and was sucked forever in. We were together for two years. She moved herself into my home and I loved her dearly. She was 22 to my 27. I was only her second love but I had known others. Her first love taught her that love was about being beaten daily. I never laid a hand on her in anger.

At some point I learned of her addiction to meth and it tore our relationship apart. But instead of trying to help her I would spy on her and then tell her where she had been. I joked about it and took no steps to try ad help her. I was emotionally abusive without realizing it then. Only after I told her to move out and she had did she tell me that she was pregnant. I told her that I refused to father a child with a speed freak and she an abortion. Eventually she grew up and married a friend of mine. They had two fine boys that are now adults. She divorced some time ago and married again and then divorced. She has had a rough life with abusive men.

In 1991 I was hurt on the job and my career that had begun in 1976 was over. I quickly turned to the bottle and was drinking several bottles of tequila a day along with plenty of speed or coke. I was trying to commit suicide the slow way. I recall one particular day I called 911 and pretended to be having a fight with this young woman whom I had not seen in years. I hung up only to be rudely awakened shortly after I passed out. They left me at home where the toilet was over-flowing with empty Tequila bottles. I had hoped that they would 5150 me. I would stay drunk for some time but kept in touch with Tina.

I remember on December 31, 1996 she drove in from Bakersfield and I asked her to marry me. We're all adults here. It was absolutely the most beautiful night I have ever spent with a woman. I can still see the candles flickering on the walls as the rain whipped storm outside raged leaving steamed up windows. We made love and it remains beyond words. We talked all night and laughed and laughed. Remembering the unborn child brought sadness as well. I remember watching her tail lights pulling out of my driveway the next morning and attempts to reach her over the next 11 years were difficult. She got hooked up with a body builder that beat her severely each day.

Life would go on and eventually I wold find the rooms of AA/NA. Tina was not a topic of discussion and at no time did I let anyone know that I had reached out to her more than once. It was after getting hurt on the job that the last sober girlfriend walked out on me after a string of cheaters. They all had one thing in common. I never mentioned Tina in meetings and in fact until I had 3 years sober I didn't even try to date. When I did the first one was a psycho! Lisa was certifiable and I have not changed her name to protect the innocent. Tina and I would reach out and find one another from time to time and I tried to explain to her that I finally understood. But the words alone weren't enough and we never met. I recall two months after getting married I got a telephone call from Tina and I had to tell her that my life had moved on. :-( I would later learn that Tina had been married too but had been popped for numerous things that cost her time in prison. She got out with clean time.

My beautiful daughter would be diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer at the tender age of 5. The stress was high and in the middle of it my now ex-wife would demand a divorce. Tina happened to pop in while I was living at the hospital with my daughter in ICU and we'd spend all night on the phone. Time and again we would confess or profess our continued love -- and it went no further.

Here we are now with Facebook so hot and easy. Tina and I have talked for some time but still have not gotten together. 3 months ago I looked at Facebook and found a picture of Tina on my timeline. I had not been "following" her so it was a surprise to see such a breath taking photo of Tina. WOW! was all that I could say. I texted her to tell her but had promised myself that it would go no further -- until Tina spoke the most powerful words in the English dictionary, "I wish you were laying her holding me again..." Off we went with phone calls and text messages. We have had many plans to meet but have not yet. Hollow promises.

I have been stricken with arthritis of the spine and I am bed ridden to some extent. As it turns out Tina has managed to start using again but ironically had stopped and put together about a week before I got a hold of her. She and I ALWAYS had a form of ESP between us that speaks volumes. We have no secrets and it is uncanny how the ESP works. Star crossed lovers? No, I don't think so. But forever connected is an understatement. I knew she needed me and I reached out. We have since pronounced our love all over again and admitted that it never died. Dormant all of these years it is almost as if no time has passed. We are in love. We are very much involved.

Now the troubling part. When I refused to be Tina's sponsor she began reading on her own. She read about no major life changes for a year and until the 4th step is done. She has stayed clean for more than 70 days but has been drinking a bit - she's not a drinker. I've told her all or nothing and she understands. So now...?

We have a relationship so to say that she needs to wait seems like water already under the bridge. I turned my back on her once before and promised that I would never do it again. We remain so very much in love that how we proceed is important. I have already directed her to go to meetings and to get a sponsor. I've already addressed her concern that she isn't getting anything out of a meeting by letting her now that that isn't the point; she is there to show the newcomer with one day less that they can make it one more day like she has. That put her at ease and now she understands.

But now she feels obligated to separate again just as we're getting started with me. Given that we don't have a traditional relationship I am not sure that applies. But I don't know and bring this to the group. My heart hurts - so close to the only one woman that i have ever loved...

Is she a newcomer that is hands off, or is she an existing love that I can treat as a family member and lend her my Experience, Strength and Hope?

FeelingGreat

Hi Jim, at this stage you owe Tina the chance to make a successful recovery without adding another emotion charged factor into her life. That would be a true test of your love.
Your current relationship of caring about each other but not getting together has probably lasted the distance because it's the most suitable way for 2 recovering addicts and emotionally unstable (not sure if you are) people to interact. A loving friendship may be the only way not to crash and burn.

krazyjim

I should have been more clear that I have 18 years clean and sober. One day at a time I will celebrate 19 years in January. I am emotionally stable. I should have also been more clear that we do get together often. Last night in fact. We have more than 28 years and far more than a friendship. Therein is my concern and why I love enough to ask for outside thoughts. Candidly, I know the usual AA/NA position about no new relationships but I see this as different. I remain, however, open to additional thoughts and will now sit back and see what some of you think. I asked - I need to now listen.

JOIE12

No one here can tell you what you need to do. It is something you discover thru pain and thru time. I can only share my experience.

I lived my life with the idea that when a relationship is over, it's just ... over.
Whatever broke it in the first place was the reason that it had to end. It's easy to keep falling in love with the same person, regardless of the circumstances. It's easy to want something comforting. Familiarity.

I always waited too long to end something that would not survive but when I did, it was 'the end'. I have stayed platonic friends with several men but the love was put to rest as the story ended.

You will find peace thru your own decisions. If you feel that this has carried on long enough and stunted your emotional growth, then you and only you will be the one to decide to end things forever. If you wish to stay friends - I don't see that happening as you may think. You have too much history.

We become addicted to our addict. Forgive me if I do not believe that she quit and is clean as easy as stated here. Addictions allow people to avoid the real issues in life, not being able to face things head on. You may have that in common but it's hardly the basis for a solid lasting relationship. Time has shown you that already.

It's been 8 months since my ABF passed away. I knew that I could not stay with him thru his heroin use. I became a crutch for him. This is the worst feeling I can imagine. Don't be her crutch. She always has you to come back to. That won't help her become successful in life or in recovery.

I wish you every happiness and we are here to share anytime that you need us. We have been thru so much and we do understand. Hugs to you KJ, Joie

krazyjim

Thank you Feeling Great and Joie12. Neither of you have said anything O don't already know. I haven't made it to 18+ years you know without attending meetings. In fact I was a meeting junkie for the 1st three years, I did H&I and ran my own meetings. I was the DJ at all of the dances and on the board to two Alano clubs. I posed the questions here because I suppose I needed to read it from others. I think I already knew what you would say. But if I may Feeling Great, my love has been tested for nearly 30 years. The thing is that back then I walked away from Tina without trying to help her in any way. This time I know a heck of a lot more --enough to know that I cannot be her lover or her sponsor. Women need female sponsors and your mate sure can't be your sponsor. She needs someone to confide in and the ability to say things that might be about me.

I made some comments too her before she left yesterday that I know have her thinking or running away or whatever. In my initial post I left the impression that we don't have any F2F relationship. She's kind of blowing me of today. I know in my heart but still wonder if there is another way. I mean, I'm human and when you have truly and deeply loved someone for so long it isn't easy to say to them that you need to put them on hold until they get their stuff together. Me? I'll get by. I'll make 19 years as long as I don't drink or use, I keep working a program, following the steps, and practicing the principles in all of my affairs. I posted here because I know that my job isn't to show up at a meeting to see what I can bring home from it. It's to see what I can leave behind in the way of experience, strength and hope. Maybe someone else reading this has similar questions. Too many people know me around home and I wanted a fresh pair of eyes.

Thanks for letting me share.

krazyjim

After proof reading what I posted that struck me as arrogant when it was not meant to be. What I was trying to say is that I've said the words to others; I've heard the words to others. I dobn't seem to communicate well like this and I hope you understand I wasn't trying to be rude or cocky. My sincere apologies if you took it that way. I really mean to be humble as I ask for advice.

FeelingGreat

Crazy it sound like if you both play it cool, develop other parts of your lives and catch up now and then that things will work themselves out in a natural way. I suppose going faster than one of the parties is comfortable with could cause damage.

teatreeoil007

Based on what you've shared she is an already existing love... Personally I am happy for you both... Thx for sharing... It is heartwarming...hugs to you both... And wish you well on sobriety!

Ann

With respect I ask if this relationship has been based on a fantasy of "what might be, or might have been"? It's been a relationship where at least one of the people was sick and the other thought they could help. That can be a good thing to a point, but in the end we each have to make our own changes, as you did, and find our own path.

You have danced the dance before, what is different this time around?

Friendship is one thing, but a deep and loving relationship requires each person bringing something to the table and a sharing of two healthy lives.

I wish you well, I'm sorry this has gone on for so many years without some kind of resolution, and I wish you both peace.

Hugs

krazyjim

If I may, the question asked was whether or not I should treat this as a new relationship or and existing one. I never expected to read that I must still be sick in spite of almost 19 years sober and 9 of those years living in a cancer hospital caring for my daughter just as I continue to do as her home health care provider preparing her life saving medications, drawing her blood for labs, or preparing her medications in general. Drunk and emotionally unstable practitioners aren't usually allowed around critical care patients. I find myself equally surprised to read that I am trying to help my friend with whom I have an extensive history of love with when I wrote that I refused to be her sponsor. The question was not asked as to whether you thought this was my fantasy or reality. Just because this is an untraditional relationship does not make it any less. Movies of star crossed lovers have long existed but add drugs or alcohol and suddenly all parties involved must be emo? In the end my original question remains the same. Is she a newcomer that is hands off, or is she an existing love... that a different approach may be necessary with. Or am I again to walk away from her and break her heart yet another time because in the meeting rooms some time ago it was ordained that you are to be unloved at all costs during the first year. <sigh> I really don't men to be rude - my heart is heavy and I had hoped to find some constructive help rather than assumptions. I guess as with most online forums it is human nature. I'll go ahead and let myself out as I did many years ago after writing some off the very first lines of code for the original site.

cynical one

It seems as if you are asking for permission, advice, or suggestions on whether or not to become romantically involved with someone new to recovery that you have had a previous relationship with, correct?

The following is my opinion only, and keep in mind that this is not a relationship advice forum:

It depends on the maturity level of those involved.

Any relationship that falls into the "it's complicated" FB status are those that are just attention seeking. This is what has become the norm with teens and young adults.

Any partner that uses the terms "twin flame", "soul mate", or "star crossed lovers" is only mature enough to be in a "it's complicated" relationship. Date them, sure why not. Do the crazy "love"- breaking up, crying to your friends, getting back together, nights of passion, fighting, making up, and public displays of affection. And, then grow up.

Real love, mature love is NOT complicated, in fact it's quite EASY. Respect, trust, and kindness are the foundations. You love one another "as is" and you don't try to change them into who you want them to be. Communication just comes naturally, words don't need to be preplanned, and things don't need to be talked. to. death. You don't do "drama". You mutually do things for one another including random acts of kindness and you don't expect anything in return. Mature love is not clingy or obsessive. It's alright to do you and allow your mate to do them. You don't need to be tied at the hip or know who they're with, what they're doing, and where they are 24/7. And, at the end of the day you know that you would be fine being alone, but you choose to be with this person. And, not because they "complete" you, but because they accentuate you.

With that being said, recovery from this life-threatening disease IS complicated and is NOT easy.

What we don't know:
Whether or not her maturity level was stunted at the age she started using...as many are.
Whether or not you are capable of a mature relationship.

What we do know:
You don't sponsor or 12-Step a loved one.
Drinking is a very slippery slope for someone who claims to want to be in recovery from drugs.

Suggestions:
Lead by example.
Don't see her as broken.
Don't try to fix her.
See her as capable of fixing herself.
KISS (pithy AA slogan)

hopepraylove

IMO, she should be treated as a newcomer. I believe her sole focus should be on her recovery, rather than determining where the relationship stands...

Praying for peace of mind and serenity for both of you.

krazyjim

See how it is. You don't like being challenged and so you delete the reply.

Her new sponsor with 27 years clean has given her the OK to continue with an existing relationship citing the fact that many *couples* go through this together. As long as she places her recovery above all else.

zoso77

I'm just wading into this thread now, and as they say in Al Anon, take what you like and leave the rest.

This is a tender, precious memory...the kind of memory that is burned into one's psyche forever. I have memories like that, too, and sometimes they're difficult to carry. When my AXGF and I started seeing each other just over 5 years ago, for example, we created a lot of would-be tender moments like the one you described above. But for me, I cannot revisit those memories without filtering them through the prism of drug addiction and (in her case) mental illness. She was abusing pain medication in those days and I didn't even realize it. So for me, that person I was with was not the real her. The real her, once she was off Percocet and Fentanyl, was quite a different animal. You can do a search of my posts to see how things ended.

In your case, the lady in question has been a part of your life for 28 years. You've both had struggles with addiction. It appears she continues to struggle with addiction. So this raises some uncomfortable questions that you have to answer...like why would you risk your own well-being by hitching your wagon to someone who, after almost 30 years, still hasn't gotten her act together.

Well, sure. "Forever connected" is fine. But forever connected is not coterminous with actually being together and being responsible to each other for life. There is little evidence that she's actually responsible to herself, so how can she be responsible to you? Even though you love her and she loves you, how has that changed any of her behavior?

I feel for you, Jim, and I don't doubt that what you feel for her is genuine. But as a guy who has been around the block more than a few times, one of the biggest lessons I've learned and can share with you is just because we love someone doesn't mean we should be with them. And that's because the price that we pay to be with them often outweighs the benefits of being with them. It sucks, and it hurts, but sometimes that's just how it goes.

We're not couples counselors here at FFSA. And you're an adult; you don't need our permission to do anything. So I'll summarize thusly:

Just because you want something doesn't mean that something is good for you.


Good luck.