I got put in the hot seat at counseling
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 83
I got put in the hot seat at counseling
I am still reeling from today. My AH and I are seperated we are trying to reconcile. So we went to counseling with my pastor.
So I was expecting to talk about our issues. Why we are separated. The abuse that has gone on and what steps need to be taken.
He asked us each to answer a question for him....Whats most important in our life right now?
Isaid honesty.
Husband said to understand how people believe(in God).
I was asked is this honesty you are wanting pertain to your husband? I said yes and everyone around me. Then he asked me if i ever lied? I said yes pastor said me too. The my pastor read a verse in the Bible and said you expecting honesty is not exactly hypocrisy but a firm of Idolatry.
In my head Im screaming...if we dont have total complete honesty...we have nothing.
There was more. Im too tired to remember...but I was heartbroken.
Why does everyone tiptoe around my husband.
I thought we were going to get to recovery...nope. My pastor turned on me..
Unbelievable.
So I was expecting to talk about our issues. Why we are separated. The abuse that has gone on and what steps need to be taken.
He asked us each to answer a question for him....Whats most important in our life right now?
Isaid honesty.
Husband said to understand how people believe(in God).
I was asked is this honesty you are wanting pertain to your husband? I said yes and everyone around me. Then he asked me if i ever lied? I said yes pastor said me too. The my pastor read a verse in the Bible and said you expecting honesty is not exactly hypocrisy but a firm of Idolatry.
In my head Im screaming...if we dont have total complete honesty...we have nothing.
There was more. Im too tired to remember...but I was heartbroken.
Why does everyone tiptoe around my husband.
I thought we were going to get to recovery...nope. My pastor turned on me..
Unbelievable.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: right here, right now
Posts: 6,516
If you're going to go to counseling, go to a COUNSELOR. Not to a pastor.
I grew up in the church, I've spent my life in the church, I've sat under the teachings of some amazing pastors -- but when it comes to addiction and abuse, most pastors are idiots. (Present company, if we have any pastors here, of course excepted...)
Our pastor when I left AXH had ONE thing to focus on: Divorce Is Sin And I Cannot Have It In My Church. He didn't care about abuse. He didn't care about addiction. He cared about his image and the image of his church.
I'm not saying your pastor is like this, but for him to call your desire for honesty in your marriage (which by the way is a PERFECTLY REASONABLE AND NORMAL desire to have!) "Idolatry" is, excuse my French, HOGWASH of the worst kind. I'm glad you're seeing it. And I'm furious that once again, a trusted person you turn to in a time of need is exposing you to re-victimization by telling you it's all YOUR fault, basically.
It's ridiculous and shameful and ungodly. And I'd like to kick that pastor in the shin. Hard.
I grew up in the church, I've spent my life in the church, I've sat under the teachings of some amazing pastors -- but when it comes to addiction and abuse, most pastors are idiots. (Present company, if we have any pastors here, of course excepted...)
Our pastor when I left AXH had ONE thing to focus on: Divorce Is Sin And I Cannot Have It In My Church. He didn't care about abuse. He didn't care about addiction. He cared about his image and the image of his church.
I'm not saying your pastor is like this, but for him to call your desire for honesty in your marriage (which by the way is a PERFECTLY REASONABLE AND NORMAL desire to have!) "Idolatry" is, excuse my French, HOGWASH of the worst kind. I'm glad you're seeing it. And I'm furious that once again, a trusted person you turn to in a time of need is exposing you to re-victimization by telling you it's all YOUR fault, basically.
It's ridiculous and shameful and ungodly. And I'd like to kick that pastor in the shin. Hard.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: South Central USA
Posts: 1,478
Wowzers...there is a whole lot something I'd like to say to pastors..but I'll be nice and say hogwash.
I went to a friend in ministry to share what is going on in my marriage and had similar hogwash given to me. I make no bones about being a Christian but I hate religion. This friend, after hearing about my husband's alcoholism, quickly stated divorce is a sin and God is against it....well, God also detests alcoholism and God is a divorcee since He divorced Israel in the OT, so now what?
Shelton, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I hope you can find a bona-fide therapist that will be of help to you and your husband. I found a wonderful Christian therapist that understands God did not create me so that I could be someone's door mat to wipe their feet on.
Hugs
I went to a friend in ministry to share what is going on in my marriage and had similar hogwash given to me. I make no bones about being a Christian but I hate religion. This friend, after hearing about my husband's alcoholism, quickly stated divorce is a sin and God is against it....well, God also detests alcoholism and God is a divorcee since He divorced Israel in the OT, so now what?
Shelton, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I hope you can find a bona-fide therapist that will be of help to you and your husband. I found a wonderful Christian therapist that understands God did not create me so that I could be someone's door mat to wipe their feet on.
Hugs
Bunnies!
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,905
Even Jesus stayed away from religion. He knew the troubles it brought. Being a Christian and being religious are not synonymous. Not by a longshot. A pastor is NOT the right person you need to go to for counseling with this type of problem. And honestly, any counseling with an active addict is a waste of time and money.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Olney, MD
Posts: 268
Im so sorry. Unless you have been there, you dont get it. I agree, going to someone who "gets it" is so much more helpful. And to someone who isnt going to beat you over the head with a Bible. That has always been a big problem I have had with organized religion.
Thankfully I have the pastor that I have now. The first thing he said when I first met him when I found my church is, "Im not here to use the Bible to beat you over the head." Our pastor is also an ACoA and has a lot of recovery behind him, and he gets it. He has been amazingly supportive of both RAH and I, individually though all this.
Thankfully I have the pastor that I have now. The first thing he said when I first met him when I found my church is, "Im not here to use the Bible to beat you over the head." Our pastor is also an ACoA and has a lot of recovery behind him, and he gets it. He has been amazingly supportive of both RAH and I, individually though all this.
torquemax777
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Montrose CO
Posts: 350
There's places in the Bible that use the terminology, "except for marital unfaithfulness and neglect" and that if an "unbeliever wishes to leave, let them leave..."
I had a Christian counselor tell me once that addictions and abuse fall into these categories. Obviously, if a man is basically "committing adultery" with the bottle he is also, showing the "fruits" of being an unbeliever and it's very neglectful.
Made a lot of sense to me. Hope it helps you.
I had a Christian counselor tell me once that addictions and abuse fall into these categories. Obviously, if a man is basically "committing adultery" with the bottle he is also, showing the "fruits" of being an unbeliever and it's very neglectful.
Made a lot of sense to me. Hope it helps you.
Guest
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 588
Most pastors simply aren't trained in any form of real counseling. They just parrot what others have said with no idea of the underlying seriousness of the situation or mental illness of the abusers. They are the most easily manipulated by sociopaths because they want to see the good in people more than get to the root and wouldn't know how to anyway. I'm blessed enough to have a priest who goes to AA and he is wise enough to refer people to proper therapist. Nice thing is, the door is never locked and you can walk out.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,243
Shelton,
Sadly the above postors are correct that many pastors have oratory skills but are not skilled in relationship counseling so one has to use caution when choosing someone to help when addiction is present.
The Western version of "church" would be very foreign to Jesus as the early church was very family/relationship oriented and it was not framed like a male dominated business model as it is now. Trust me that God does not want you to be mistreated by a sinning mate and God himself separated himself from Israel when she was in rebellion and sinning and restored her when she repented.
I highly recommend you get the book Redemptive Divorce which explains how it is biblical to even state in writing in your divorce decree the actual facts and what the offending mate must actually do in what timeframe to stop the divorce from completion.
The problem with alcoholism, abuse and infidelity we often help the abuser by keeping their secrets because of the church and society and the embarrassment of it all. It is up to you if after reading you actually follow this course of action to its fullest expression. Even if you don't go that far I would get the book and read it and give to your pastor ...
I have a GREAT retired pastor who specializes in counseling (has a doctorate but counsels through the Bible) and is the most transparent Jesus like loving man I have ever met. I have sent dozens of couples to him including recovering alcoholics and most of those marriages were saved and are thriving now. He doesn't charge if the couple doesn't have money.
In my case he was spot on with my XA as he worked with both of us separately and together and so they are out there but you have to find look for the right person to counsel with if you both want a Christian counselor. Remember that you can counsel over the phone too so you are not restricted geographically if you are in a rural area.
Get the book! Great start to being enlightened as what the Bible really teaches (we are free from abusive husbands or wives)
Sadly the above postors are correct that many pastors have oratory skills but are not skilled in relationship counseling so one has to use caution when choosing someone to help when addiction is present.
The Western version of "church" would be very foreign to Jesus as the early church was very family/relationship oriented and it was not framed like a male dominated business model as it is now. Trust me that God does not want you to be mistreated by a sinning mate and God himself separated himself from Israel when she was in rebellion and sinning and restored her when she repented.
I highly recommend you get the book Redemptive Divorce which explains how it is biblical to even state in writing in your divorce decree the actual facts and what the offending mate must actually do in what timeframe to stop the divorce from completion.
The problem with alcoholism, abuse and infidelity we often help the abuser by keeping their secrets because of the church and society and the embarrassment of it all. It is up to you if after reading you actually follow this course of action to its fullest expression. Even if you don't go that far I would get the book and read it and give to your pastor ...
I have a GREAT retired pastor who specializes in counseling (has a doctorate but counsels through the Bible) and is the most transparent Jesus like loving man I have ever met. I have sent dozens of couples to him including recovering alcoholics and most of those marriages were saved and are thriving now. He doesn't charge if the couple doesn't have money.
In my case he was spot on with my XA as he worked with both of us separately and together and so they are out there but you have to find look for the right person to counsel with if you both want a Christian counselor. Remember that you can counsel over the phone too so you are not restricted geographically if you are in a rural area.
Get the book! Great start to being enlightened as what the Bible really teaches (we are free from abusive husbands or wives)
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 83
I am better today. Counseling with my Pastor is not an option unfortunately. Lesson learned. My AH doesnt need more counseling. He understands what needs to be done. Enough talking. Time to start moving forward. Thanks everyone for your kind words. Hugs
A work in progress
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 16,633
Yeah, personally, I think relationship counseling with an active alcoholic is a big fat waste of time. Your pastor sounds a bit off-the-wall with his perspective, but the most skilled therapist/counselor isn't going to get anywhere unless both parties are, at the very least, in their right minds.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 667
What I learned in counseling is that it is always a 2 way street. Both parties are accountable for some aspects of your end results.
Lets try it this way. You want your AC partner to be truthful. Totally not unreasonable at all. Therefore anything you do that isn't truthful, will be a target of reference for your AC to use for a standard. And I know the first thing you are going to say is "Well my dishonesty wasn't the same as his", and that becomes rationalization. The same rationalization that the AC latches onto. Your lie may be a little white lie to you, but to your AC, it is no different than what he thinks is a little white lie in his mind. The same one you find outrageous.
My XABF actually began to believe that lying was the normal part of living. That is how AC was able to remain a part of her (and my) life. Each layer of lie became the new normal. So if you lie, that is their normal place. It's no big deal to them. You become no better than they are. Then when you ask them to stop, any lie you have done, no matter how small, becomes as normal sized as theirs.
Here is an example of a lie I admitted to. X: Do you want to go out tonight and listen to music? My response. No I am not in the mood for that. The real response, the truthful one was, No I don't want to go out and deal with your drinking and be seen with a drunk that I know is going to be loud and obnoxious and embarrassing.
So my response was a lie and was one to avoid the reality of what I was actually thinking. Was it a lie? In wasn't in my mind when I chose to respond that way. But again that was my rationalizing it to be a normal.
Now lets compare that to a lie my X would use. I need to work late tonight. End of month project deadlines. That's her story. The reality of it was, she was meeting a man for drinking and sex.
Of course we would see these as different levels of lies.
But we are not the AC. They see your lie the same way they see theirs.
Once I became REAL honest with my XAGF. I began to realize that it was me that was allowing myself to live with the lies. To be honest with me, I had to not be with her.
Lets try it this way. You want your AC partner to be truthful. Totally not unreasonable at all. Therefore anything you do that isn't truthful, will be a target of reference for your AC to use for a standard. And I know the first thing you are going to say is "Well my dishonesty wasn't the same as his", and that becomes rationalization. The same rationalization that the AC latches onto. Your lie may be a little white lie to you, but to your AC, it is no different than what he thinks is a little white lie in his mind. The same one you find outrageous.
My XABF actually began to believe that lying was the normal part of living. That is how AC was able to remain a part of her (and my) life. Each layer of lie became the new normal. So if you lie, that is their normal place. It's no big deal to them. You become no better than they are. Then when you ask them to stop, any lie you have done, no matter how small, becomes as normal sized as theirs.
Here is an example of a lie I admitted to. X: Do you want to go out tonight and listen to music? My response. No I am not in the mood for that. The real response, the truthful one was, No I don't want to go out and deal with your drinking and be seen with a drunk that I know is going to be loud and obnoxious and embarrassing.
So my response was a lie and was one to avoid the reality of what I was actually thinking. Was it a lie? In wasn't in my mind when I chose to respond that way. But again that was my rationalizing it to be a normal.
Now lets compare that to a lie my X would use. I need to work late tonight. End of month project deadlines. That's her story. The reality of it was, she was meeting a man for drinking and sex.
Of course we would see these as different levels of lies.
But we are not the AC. They see your lie the same way they see theirs.
Once I became REAL honest with my XAGF. I began to realize that it was me that was allowing myself to live with the lies. To be honest with me, I had to not be with her.
torquemax777
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Montrose CO
Posts: 350
Another one I thought of ( and I should take the time to quote the actual verse) but there's s verse in the Bible that says that if a brother is caught up in ongoing sin, to confront him, if he refuses to repent turn him over to Satan and let him continue in his sin in hope that he will see the error of his ways and turn away and come back.
I see this as Jesus saying, " detatch, go no contact ( and that means the whole church is to turn their back on him) and basically, he will hopefully reach his "rock bottom."
I see this as Jesus saying, " detatch, go no contact ( and that means the whole church is to turn their back on him) and basically, he will hopefully reach his "rock bottom."
Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,582
Personally, I do not think that all ministers make great counselors. There can be crossovers, but not always. What about an actual marriage counselor? Unless, of course he is still drinking. Then I wouldn't waste the time or money.
Curmudgeon, Electrical Engineer, Guitar God Wannabe
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Where the mighty arms of Atlas hold the heavens from the Earth
Posts: 3,403
Originally Posted by shelton40 
I am still reeling from today. My AH and I are seperated we are trying to reconcile. So we went to counseling with my pastor.
So I was expecting to talk about our issues. Why we are separated. The abuse that has gone on and what steps need to be taken.
He asked us each to answer a question for him....Whats most important in our life right now?
Isaid honesty.
Husband said to understand how people believe(in God).
I was asked is this honesty you are wanting pertain to your husband? I said yes and everyone around me. Then he asked me if i ever lied? I said yes pastor said me too. The my pastor read a verse in the Bible and said you expecting honesty is not exactly hypocrisy but a firm of Idolatry.
In my head Im screaming...if we dont have total complete honesty...we have nothing.
There was more. Im too tired to remember...but I was heartbroken.
Why does everyone tiptoe around my husband.
I thought we were going to get to recovery...nope. My pastor turned on me..
Unbelievable.
So I was expecting to talk about our issues. Why we are separated. The abuse that has gone on and what steps need to be taken.
He asked us each to answer a question for him....Whats most important in our life right now?
Isaid honesty.
Husband said to understand how people believe(in God).
I was asked is this honesty you are wanting pertain to your husband? I said yes and everyone around me. Then he asked me if i ever lied? I said yes pastor said me too. The my pastor read a verse in the Bible and said you expecting honesty is not exactly hypocrisy but a firm of Idolatry.
In my head Im screaming...if we dont have total complete honesty...we have nothing.
There was more. Im too tired to remember...but I was heartbroken.
Why does everyone tiptoe around my husband.
I thought we were going to get to recovery...nope. My pastor turned on me..
Unbelievable.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 83
Yes myAH is still using. I never had a chance to talk about what I had come to realize about my own dishonesty. Which I have admitted to my AH and asked for forgiveness in hopes of moving forward. But my pastor also said. No matter what sin your wife hascommitted you need to surrender to Jesus. I almost walked out. I was thinking why am I here. My Ah said its hard for him to just give up all his friends and family tobe with me. He shouldnt have to. Do you understand what Im struggling with Pastor? Pastor said yes. My pastor said after all ofthis Liz will learn to be a good Godly wife and you will be spiritual leader in the house. He then prayed for me(liz) to have loving kind words fo. My husband.
I am so floored by all of it.
The day before I called my Pastor to talk about things goibg on...He said there needs to be complete honesty from both of us if there is to be healing.
Ahhhhhh!
I am so floored by all of it.
The day before I called my Pastor to talk about things goibg on...He said there needs to be complete honesty from both of us if there is to be healing.
Ahhhhhh!
Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13,560
You need a new pastor. Sorry, I would normally NEVER say anything like this, but he seems to be so wrapped up in your AH, what about you?? Wow...just...Wow. As I said, I did pastoral counseling and it was NOTHING like that. However, the pastor was also licensed as a counselor, as I think they should be if they are going to provide that sort of service.
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