It says if I'm sober, I'll be alone
02.27.15 :): ▽VII△VIII
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: California
Posts: 2,802
It says if I'm sober, I'll be alone
This idea has been creeping around in my mind for a few days, but I'm just now starting to see what's going on.
It says if I succeed at recovery, people will think I'm strong. If they think I'm strong, they will think I don't need support. Then they will leave. It says I have to continue to drink so people will continue to try to help me. It's the only way to keep them close. I'm afraid if I stay sober, I will be alone.
It's saying I have almost a month sober, people are starting to think I'm fine, that this is easy for me, so they are going to move on. This is actually backward because in truth I've been a real basketcase lately, and people have been very concerned and supportive. So when I look at the circumstances, this logic should not fly.
What I should probably take from this is that I need to build the right kind of support system. One with people I trust and can rely on for real ongoing support, not just crisis intervention. I need to learn how to reach out for support as opposed to issuing a dramatic cry for help for fear no one will hear me otherwise. I need to figure out how to be an effective part of my own support system.
Okay, got it. Thanks, AV, for teaching me how to beat you.
It says if I succeed at recovery, people will think I'm strong. If they think I'm strong, they will think I don't need support. Then they will leave. It says I have to continue to drink so people will continue to try to help me. It's the only way to keep them close. I'm afraid if I stay sober, I will be alone.
It's saying I have almost a month sober, people are starting to think I'm fine, that this is easy for me, so they are going to move on. This is actually backward because in truth I've been a real basketcase lately, and people have been very concerned and supportive. So when I look at the circumstances, this logic should not fly.
What I should probably take from this is that I need to build the right kind of support system. One with people I trust and can rely on for real ongoing support, not just crisis intervention. I need to learn how to reach out for support as opposed to issuing a dramatic cry for help for fear no one will hear me otherwise. I need to figure out how to be an effective part of my own support system.
Okay, got it. Thanks, AV, for teaching me how to beat you.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by Briar 
...I have to continue to drink so people will continue to try to help me. It's the only way to keep them close. I'm afraid if I stay sober, I will be alone.
The condition is fairly easy to observe after knowing someone for a time, and the outward presentation is of a chronic complainer, someone who (repeatedly) does not want to make "a big deal" out of their most recent medical or psychological problem, but then does so anyway, or someone who expresses frequent and numerous worries over possible or nonexistent illnesses.
What you're describing is extremely common, particularly for people who were raised in neglectful or abusive families, and for those who do not otherwise know how to connect with others emotionally. They learned (or perceived) early on that being ill, injured or traumatized was the only way to get the attention or affection they craved, and this carries on through adulthood. I imagine that most of us know or have known someone like this at some point during our lives. (God help us all.) After all, who doesn't like being cared for and nursed back to health, even when we're perfectly healthy?
I've long held a theory that a subgroup of newcomers in AA find this particular dynamic particularly seductive, and that it is one among many reasons (rationalizations) to drink or relapse. It's been my experience that people who are new or who are just coming back get a great deal of attention from the group, probably more attention and more genuine attention than they've ever experienced. So why not hit the "Restart Button" once the attention recedes? And it seems to me that you're going through that very process.
People who are always complaining or bemoaning their fate seem pathetic and are often pitied or ignored. Genuinely reaching out for help is a sign of strength, and demonstrates that the person may be ready to accept meaningful changes in his or her life.
As a healthy, sober person, you'll attract many more healthy and sober people than you would otherwise.
P.S. Over time, I learned that job candidates who answered the question, "How are you?" at the beginning of the interview with replies such as "A little tired. I didn't sleep well last night." 'I think I caught a cold this morning." or "I'm sick, but I'm okay to do the interview.", rarely displayed confidence during our interviews, and were likely looking for a pass had they not presented themselves well during the interview.
02.27.15 :): ▽VII△VIII
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: California
Posts: 2,802
Yeah, I see it. Thank you for framing it like that. It's a little embarrassing, frankly, but I guess if I never put it out there and take the feedback, I'll never work through it.
Life is an unlikely miracle.
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: England
Posts: 1,859
Originally Posted by EndGameNYC
Okay, so this is pretty much the foundation of Münchausen syndrome -- people who chronically report and typically complain about illnesses, pain, trauma and diseases that don't exist in order to evoke sympathy and get attention from others. But what you're talking about does not nearly represent the full-blown syndrome. Since on some level those affected understand that both their reported conditions and the attention derived therefrom are both counterfeit, they experience an ongoing need and impulse to repeat and expand their clandestine maladies, never quite capturing the love they seek.
The condition is fairly easy to observe after knowing someone for a time, and the outward presentation is of a chronic complainer, someone who (repeatedly) does not want to make "a big deal" out of their most recent medical or psychological problem, but then does so anyway, or someone who expresses frequent and numerous worries over possible or nonexistent illnesses.
What you're describing is extremely common, particularly for people who were raised in neglectful or abusive families, and for those who do not otherwise know how to connect with others emotionally. They learned (or perceived) early on that being ill, injured or traumatized was the only way to get the attention or affection they craved, and this carries on through adulthood. I imagine that most of us know or have known someone like this at some point during our lives. (God help us all.) After all, who doesn't like being cared for and nursed back to health, even when we're perfectly healthy?
I've long held a theory that a subgroup of newcomers in AA find this particular dynamic particularly seductive, and that it is one among many reasons (rationalizations) to drink or relapse. It's been my experience that people who are new or who are just coming back get a great deal of attention from the group, probably more attention and more genuine attention than they've ever experienced. So why not hit the "Restart Button" once the attention recedes? And it seems to me that you're going through that very process.
People who are always complaining or bemoaning their fate seem pathetic and are often pitied or ignored. Genuinely reaching out for help is a sign of strength, and demonstrates that the person may be ready to accept meaningful changes in his or her life.
As a healthy, sober person, you'll attract many more healthy and sober people than you would otherwise.
P.S. Over time, I learned that job candidates who answered the question, "How are you?" at the beginning of the interview with replies such as "A little tired. I didn't sleep well last night." 'I think I caught a cold this morning." or "I'm sick, but I'm okay to do the interview.", rarely displayed confidence during our interviews, and were likely looking for a pass had they not presented themselves well during the interview.
The condition is fairly easy to observe after knowing someone for a time, and the outward presentation is of a chronic complainer, someone who (repeatedly) does not want to make "a big deal" out of their most recent medical or psychological problem, but then does so anyway, or someone who expresses frequent and numerous worries over possible or nonexistent illnesses.
What you're describing is extremely common, particularly for people who were raised in neglectful or abusive families, and for those who do not otherwise know how to connect with others emotionally. They learned (or perceived) early on that being ill, injured or traumatized was the only way to get the attention or affection they craved, and this carries on through adulthood. I imagine that most of us know or have known someone like this at some point during our lives. (God help us all.) After all, who doesn't like being cared for and nursed back to health, even when we're perfectly healthy?
I've long held a theory that a subgroup of newcomers in AA find this particular dynamic particularly seductive, and that it is one among many reasons (rationalizations) to drink or relapse. It's been my experience that people who are new or who are just coming back get a great deal of attention from the group, probably more attention and more genuine attention than they've ever experienced. So why not hit the "Restart Button" once the attention recedes? And it seems to me that you're going through that very process.
People who are always complaining or bemoaning their fate seem pathetic and are often pitied or ignored. Genuinely reaching out for help is a sign of strength, and demonstrates that the person may be ready to accept meaningful changes in his or her life.
As a healthy, sober person, you'll attract many more healthy and sober people than you would otherwise.
P.S. Over time, I learned that job candidates who answered the question, "How are you?" at the beginning of the interview with replies such as "A little tired. I didn't sleep well last night." 'I think I caught a cold this morning." or "I'm sick, but I'm okay to do the interview.", rarely displayed confidence during our interviews, and were likely looking for a pass had they not presented themselves well during the interview.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Interesting discussion.
Briar, the problem with this strategy is that people's sympathy and compassion in it's genuine form is usually not limitless. Unconditional love is a beautiful ideal, but in reality, probably apart from the love of saints and parents, it does not work completely that way... Initially this orientation and strategy may yield the expected (by you) result, and last for a while... but it won't last indefinitely. Over time, I think most of us like to see and experience progress, including that our support and advice also leads somewhere, and if not, we may naturally lose the motivation to support the person who is stagnating very long. This may sound rough and insensitive, but I think it is true. SR is pretty exceptional in this regard, but the trend is visible even here I think.
So, eventually, the supporting people may leave for the very reason that they experience their support ineffective over a long period of time. And that, I think, is more difficult to reverse in many cases, to regain the enthusiasm. But it does happen. However, when we "take advantage" of this trust and periods of support repeatedly and nothing changes, that will inevitably affect the intensity of any incoming support, I think. SR, again, is quite special in this regard also because there are always lots of new people around. Probably the f2f recovery groups are similar also, that I am less familiar with.
In any case, what I am trying to highlight is that this strategy is far less effective in terms of making friends and building a lasting support system compared with a strategy where we do work on ourselves and the supporting people see the result of their efforts in our recovery and evolution. Given that our support system is composed of sober people with a forward perspective and/or people who genuinely want to get better.
Briar, I think that saying yes to lasting recovery would probably open up possibilities to you, including social possibilities, that you most likely cannot see or imagine right now. Like we often say, it takes a leap of faith
The initial discomfort is absolutely normal and it's actually a good thing if you can step over it.
Please don't feel ashamed about any of this, try to ride the current of the feeling instead!
Originally Posted by Briar
It says if I succeed at recovery, people will think I'm strong. If they think I'm strong, they will think I don't need support. Then they will leave. It says I have to continue to drink so people will continue to try to help me. It's the only way to keep them close. I'm afraid if I stay sober, I will be alone.
So, eventually, the supporting people may leave for the very reason that they experience their support ineffective over a long period of time. And that, I think, is more difficult to reverse in many cases, to regain the enthusiasm. But it does happen. However, when we "take advantage" of this trust and periods of support repeatedly and nothing changes, that will inevitably affect the intensity of any incoming support, I think. SR, again, is quite special in this regard also because there are always lots of new people around. Probably the f2f recovery groups are similar also, that I am less familiar with.
In any case, what I am trying to highlight is that this strategy is far less effective in terms of making friends and building a lasting support system compared with a strategy where we do work on ourselves and the supporting people see the result of their efforts in our recovery and evolution. Given that our support system is composed of sober people with a forward perspective and/or people who genuinely want to get better.
Briar, I think that saying yes to lasting recovery would probably open up possibilities to you, including social possibilities, that you most likely cannot see or imagine right now. Like we often say, it takes a leap of faith
The initial discomfort is absolutely normal and it's actually a good thing if you can step over it.Please don't feel ashamed about any of this, try to ride the current of the feeling instead!
pray for strength
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: New England
Posts: 2,414
Briar, no need to feel uncomfortable.
C'mon, EndGame. Your post is valid but is it not also true that a legitimate Munchausen's diagnosis is exceedingly rare?
Humans are social animals! We are all driven in many ways to prevent isolation for survival. We are all trying to find our truth and our tribe.
This is brilliant. Way to listen to then shush that AV, Briar.
C'mon, EndGame. Your post is valid but is it not also true that a legitimate Munchausen's diagnosis is exceedingly rare?
Humans are social animals! We are all driven in many ways to prevent isolation for survival. We are all trying to find our truth and our tribe.
Originally Posted by Briar
What I should probably take from this is that I need to build the right kind of support system. One with people I trust and can rely on for real ongoing support, not just crisis intervention. I need to learn how to reach out for support as opposed to issuing a dramatic cry for help for fear no one will hear me otherwise. I need to figure out how to be an effective part of my own support system.
Okay, got it. Thanks, AV, for teaching me how to beat you.
Okay, got it. Thanks, AV, for teaching me how to beat you.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,912
Originally Posted by LeTheVerte
Humans are social animals! We are all driven in many ways to prevent isolation for survival. We are all trying to find our truth and our tribe.
Behold the power of NO
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: WA
Posts: 7,764
Whoa, you've got one screwed up AV....but the good news it that you recognize it for what it is and you do not say I but talk about it as IT.
This is not you, just your addictive voice talking crazy. Keep on trucking and don't pick up the first one.
This is not you, just your addictive voice talking crazy. Keep on trucking and don't pick up the first one.
EndGame
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 4,677
Originally Posted by LeTheVerte
Briar, no need to feel uncomfortable.
C'mon, EndGame. Your post is valid but is it not also true that a legitimate Munchausen's diagnosis is exceedingly rare?
C'mon, EndGame. Your post is valid but is it not also true that a legitimate Munchausen's diagnosis is exceedingly rare?
For Briar, I didn't mean to humble you or offend you in any way. When I wrote that what you described is very common, I was referring to your particular experience, and I was not at all suggesting that you're afflicted with Munchausen Syndrome. I only used it as an example of extreme cases of garnering attention in the ways you described.
I suffered with childhood asthma, and I learned that when I was ill I would get more attention from my mother than when I was okay, who also happened to be a nurse. There are five of us, so getting her attention was a full-time job, but my asthma and other illnesses fast-tracked me to my mother's care. It took me years (beginning in my early teens), including drinking alcoholically and finally getting sober at a relatively young age to overcome this burdensome obstacle.
Still not certain which came first...Asthma or insufficient care and attention. Either way, this dynamic stuck with me in many of my relationships.
And, again, as I wrote, what you described is very common.
02.27.15 :): ▽VII△VIII
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: California
Posts: 2,802
Endgame you didn't offend me at all. You really nailed the mechanism behind what I was thinking and helped point me in the right direction to work on it. I really appreciated your response and the opportunity to sit with a little discomfort knowing it was okay and good. I should have dropped a smiley in there to show you I was smiling when I wrote that.
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Whistler, British Columbia
Posts: 222
Your AV is scared and knows you know the truth.
One of my favorite movies of all time and this scene sums it up perfect.
Revolver Elevator Scene - Jake vs Jake - YouTube
One of my favorite movies of all time and this scene sums it up perfect.
Revolver Elevator Scene - Jake vs Jake - YouTube
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: German Village, Columbus with my love ♥
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Originally Posted by Briar
bcboy that is awesome, exactly it! Thank you!
That was extraordinarily powerful.
I'm glad I read the thread Briar.
Love V xx
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