UncleMeat69

Do you think the Anti-God movement in America makes
it more difficult for newcomers to AA to accept the first 3 Steps ?

This thread is not about selling religion or atheism. Please try to
be open-minded either way.

All program people I know needed a power other than their own
to recover and I find it interesting to learn what others have used
that works for them and how they "Made a decision to turn their
will and life over to a" Higher Power of their own understanding.

Many AA's like myself had a real problem with "The God thing."
We all have our story on how we arrived at an acceptable "understanding" for ourselves.
How did you ?

Carlotta

Do you really think there is an Anti God movement? Personally I don't think so, I think people are more cynical toward organized religion (for good reasons) but Anti God?
I can't wait to see how this thread develop: it will either go South real fast and get closed down or (hopefully) we will get some real good and respectful discussion going.

UncleMeat69

I hope you are right that it draws good and respectful discussion.

I am very willing to admit I could be mistaking that Anti-God thing
with plain old AA bashing. I do believe the cynicism you refer to
has an impact on newcomers.

BadCompany

I find the anti god thing to be regional. It's trendy here and there but hardly widespread. I find that most people have a rehearsed answer to God questions, usually based on the social situation they find themselves in. Few people really have a thought out answer to who God is and what God does and even fewer will honestly share it.

caboblanco

I agree with Carlotta that tis an anti religion thing. People have questions about the dogma..especially those people who take the written word verbatim or skew such words to their own agenda which have nothing to do with God or spirituality There were always many atheist and people who

questioned religion but mostly they were afraid to come out of the woodwork due to the repercussions of their beliefs.

people claim to go to AA that are atheist. I don't understand that but if its working for them that's great

jdooner

I have found the greatest turn off of AA are the very hard core messengers, usually older that seem to have found religion a certain way and believe everyone else should do the same. I find these people tend to use religion and God as a self righteous tool to make themselves feel more comfortable with their own doubts or inadequacies.

I do feel that the role of organized religion is less than when I was younger but this is coming from a Catholic perspective and I feel much of this is attributed to the sex scandals and a rigid view - Innovators Dilemna if you will.

mick3580

I'm not aware oaf any anti God movement going on in America. Some people believe in God. Some people don't. Some people think they don't but they really do.

It had no impact on my application and understanding of the first three steps.

Once I saw that I could not rely on my thinking to kept myself sober, and I subsequently was in hell without even taking a drink, I was willing to do what the book asked me to do, which was to set aside my prejudices, keep an open mind, and admit the possible existence of a power greater than myself, even if I did not fully understand that power. I then proceeded with action and was taken from hell to a place that wasn't anything like hell.

UncleMeat69

Whatever anyone's concept of religion may be,
assuming AA is their recovery program, they
have found something other than their own will-power
to achieve recovery. It could even be the fellowship.

My first sponsor told me when I was struggling with
the issue that whatever HP I choose, just make sure it
isn't myself because that is what got me into AA.

If I did not find a power other than me in AA, I would not
have stuck around.

KateL

I don't like organised religion but have my own personal beliefs. I also dislike it when idiots on facebook post all their anti-God stuff. They say they don't like religion thrust down people's throats but they thrust their ideas down one's throat worse than anyone. I didn't have trouble with the steps because of religion when I attended AA for a brief period. It was nothing to do with God or belief. I simply couldn't accept that I was unable to empower myself against the dreaded drink. AA's camaraderie got me through my initial recovery but then I did it myself. But that's just me.

paulokes

Exactly. Personally I don't like excessive use of the term Higher Power, feels a bit empty and ritualistic. A Power Greater Than Myself I can relate to, sometimes I choose to call that God

Pro or Anti Religion? Not something I choose to engage in, much more interested in the results folks are getting in their lives

P

soberhal9

I didn't believe in god when I first came into AA. I came to believe in God. I can't define this God. As far as religion I take christianity's scripture and apply it to my spiritual growth. I do not go to church. I don't really care if people don't believe in god, I just have a god as my own understanding. there are atheists in my home group , there don't bash other peoples faith.

tomsteve

"Do you think the Anti-God movement in America makes
it more difficult for newcomers to AA to accept the first 3 Steps ?"


nope.
ive seen quite a few at different stages of the disease come into AA. ones who are still sober had 2 ingredients:
they were openminded.
they were willing.

Boleo

GOD as in Good Old Deity is not necessary. There are enough alternatives
to please most people.

Group Of Drunks
Good Orderly Direction
Gift Of Desperation
Guider Of Decisions

Threshold

What I come across regularly is the mindset that each person should not need anyone else in their life.

Everyone should be financially independent, have their own health insurance, retirement account, couples should have separate bank accounts, and no one should be in a couples relationship unless they can meet the above PLUS, not really need a relationship. It is SO passe' to not be a totally self actualized individual.

So it's not just "I don't need God"...there seems to be this idea that no one should need ANYONE for any reason. There is a pressure for people to be everything to themselves.

I think with that atmosphere many people find they only things they consider "higher powers" are scary things, things that are out to get them...depression, creditors, their scary boss, illness etc.

It's me against the big bad world..with no one to turn to.

Even many people that do believe in God...see him as the hard task master up in the sky, more than their biggest fan.

freya

Actually, based on my own experience in recovery and on what I've seen with the people I sponsor/have sponsored, the only thing that can -- and most certainly does -- truly affect people's willingness to do the work is whether or not they have gotten to and have recognized and accepted that they've gotten to a place of hopeless demoralization...a place where they truly 'know' -- physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually -- that they are absolutely and totally S.O.L. and that they are powerless to help themselves.

When I was in that place, I didn't give a d*mn whether God existed or not, whether I believed in God or not, whether I understood God or not, whether I thought God cared about me and wanted to help me or not...All I knew was that the misery needed to stop, and I was willing to hope like hell that there was something out there a lot greater than me (i.e. way-beyond human) and to do everything I could possibly do to get the attention and help of whatever that thing might be.

Not believing in Higher Power is a 'luxury' that can be afforded only by people who cling to illusion of personal power and control...which brings us to the anti-God movement issue. Somebody up-thread said something about the anti-God movement being regional. LOL! I guess that might be true if one were to consider ivory-tower-intellectual-elitism a 'region'. I do know that there have been a lot of books published over the last few years supposedly 'disproving' the existence of God, and that they've been getting quite a lot of press.

It actually kinda blows my mind that anybody takes this stuff seriously. I mean, really? Talk about clinging to the illusion of personal power and control: If there was a God, some big human brain would be able to prove (or disprove) His existence and understand Him (since a lot of these anti-God things lean heavily on the b*llsh*t about how-could-a-loving-God-allow......w-h-a-t-e-v-e-r.....).

Seriously????

In that set-up the human intellect is the ultimate power in the universe...and, I'm sorry, but I need a God A LOT bigger than that...As far as I'm concerned if it's puny enough for me -- or any other human being -- to be able to fully understand it and to be able to prove (or disprove) it's existence, then it's nowhere near big enough to be God.

freya

mfanch

"Do you think the Anti-God movement in America makes
it more difficult for newcomers to AA to accept the first 3 Steps?"

No.

The steps work for me because I work them, not because I believe in them. I just know that I am no longer in charge. It is about right-sizing my ego and keeping it that way, so over time I act my way into correct thinking.

HP=infinite universe. Versus finite self, it is a pretty easy choice to make for this atheist.

nickand

It does show how progressive we have gotten. This probably helps new comers find more suitable alternatives.

UncleMeat69

When I came to AA I observed those who had been sober for a good amount of time.
I listened when they shared about how the steps worked for them,
but I did not know if the steps would work for me until I worked them myself.
To my surprise they did work for me.

I was hoping to hear how the steps worked for some of the atheists
in the program. Thank you.

Threshold

Very interesting the way you put that. An alternative wording of step 2 that comes from one of my recovery networks is " I have come to the realization through personal experience that the intelligence of mankind is not the only intelligence at work in the universe."

yup, hunans have NOT got this market cornered!

Joe Nerv

I still have a really rough time wrapping my brain around the fact that anybody actually believes human intelliegience IS the most powerful intelligience in the universe, or highest power. That's even more frightening than the idea of there being no god, if that makes any sense.

As for the idea of an anti god movement, it isn't happening around my parts thankfully. I'm starting to realize I live in a pretty good area. Lots of open mindedness, and the preaching only goes on at a few certain meetings that I'm not allowed to go to. I placed that regulation on myself .