jacrazz

The title of this book was intriguing for me, so that's why I bought it. Early in my recovery I did read "codependent no more" and attended a few al alon meetings and felt they both were ok. This book re-examines the codependency theory. I hate labels, just hate them! I was having a talk with my XA and we spoke about all the different psychobabble out there about addiction and he basically said that he loves to drink, he knows it's bad but when he has had enough, I will be the first to know about it. I also told him I will not accept the label of "enabler" because while I did do things to help him keep his car and job I also did it to help myself, because I need those things also. He does what he does for the love of booze and I do what I do for the love of my family, bottom line. I could have poured the booze down his throat.....he choose to open his mouth!

I'm not powerless and my life is not unmanageable....if that we're the case I would be in a padded room or have a guardian to manage my affairs. We make lousy judgment calls that get us in a bind, things that we do to ourselves. I know that I need to be more self reliant. I will not surrender control to feel better.

BEHAVIOR IS NOT A DISEASE.

shil2587

When I first started reading, I felt a lot like you. Now, though, I think I have an understanding that helps me deal with things. For me, it's not so much about handing over all control or punishing myself for holding things together that I want, it's more about recognising. That it's ok to feel like I haven't put things perfectly right, to give myself permission to even get it wrong. So for me, for this moment now, I recognise that I cannot control when things will go wrong and when they will go right so I hand that over to my higher power and work on controlling those things that I need for myself to be at peace. That's how I interpret the serenity payer.

With regards an alcoholic, whatever your take on whether it is a disease or not, once it is an addiction, a compulsion, control over alcohol is, by definition, lost. Until that fact is accepted, the alcoholic is in denial and lying to himself. Any recovery from either a disease or a behaviour must start with a diagnosis and honesty about the problem. That is why they have to accept they have lost control.

But all of this aside, in the gentlest way possible, I have to question why you posted here. Are you trying to 'fix' everyone here or challenge what we have found helps us? Live and let live. If it's helpful in finding peace, let it alone. It sounds to me more that perhaps you know this is a bigger problem than you can control and this was railing against the wind, so to speak.

Booo

Why is it that self help books have the worst titles? A friend if mine asked what I was reading and it was even hard to TYPE the title of "co-no-mo".
I think another one I have is called "if you love me why won't you stop"
They sound like bad bad fiction titles!
I think that I also read the CC a few years back..it's an older book, right?

I am happier to say that my behavior is "codependent" behavior.

And if you are your ex are good with how you label or don't label, that's fine with me.
I too dislike labels, but I like that I have words and tools to help describe what I do and how to control my actions or reactions.

dandylion

Dearest Jacrazz---I think that you should only wear the shoes that fit........

What anyone else thinks (about your shoes) is none of your business......,anyway.

with much affection,
dandylion

Upsetnneedhelp

jacrazz, I relate to your post. I felt the few Alanon meeting I attended were completely useless. People there just seemed so angry. I am not angry at all with my son and blame other factors that forced him to drugs. My son used drugs whether I enabled or not. It's never effected my job or my other kids. The "co-dependent" label seems very negative.

DesertEyes

No worries, jacrazz. SoberRecovery exists simply to provide information and a safe place to help people overcome the nightmare of addiction. The 12 step programs are only one of many different aproaches to this issue. For some people they work perfectly well, for others not at all.

Could you tell us a bit more about the book? If you found it useful then I expect there are many others who might benefit from the book, especially if it offers a different approach from the standard 12 steps.

Mike
Moderator, SR

lillamy

Ya know, whatever works. To me, the idea that I am unable to control another person's actions isn't mumbo jumbo or calling myself weak - it's really common sense.

And calling my AXH's alcoholism a disease provided me with an explanation model for his behavior. Somehow, that was easier for me to accept than the thought that he chose to drink. Because if he chose to drink and then abused his children and his wife, that would make him evil. Sick was easier for me to fathom.

Whatever model works for you, man. Since this isn't an exact science, I think it's important that we share what works for us without knocking what works for other people.

choublak

The full title is Codependency Conspiracy: How to Break the Recovery Habit and Take Charge of Your Life.

Now, what, exactly, is the "recovery habit"?

AnvilheadII

the concept of being powerless and life being unmanageable is "condition" specific not a life sentence. I too would not wish to be deemed powerless and out of control for ever!!!

but, there are some things I AM powerless over and have no ability to control.
crack cocaine. nope. BTDT can't do it EVER again.
my husband's crack cocaine addiction. nope. tried that too....he quit on his own without my "help" - in fact my "help" made thing worse.
what other people think, believe or do.
traffic and weather.

you sound empowered and clear in where you are in life, who you are. you don't have to accept any label at all. I don't think that is the point. labels and conditions can help us identify with certain mind sets, behaviors. but they are not a requirement.

HopefulinFLA

Great perspective Jacrazz. I think I've done most of my "enabling" for the same reasons. Good good for thought!

jacrazz

I'm not by any means trying to knock anybody for what beliefs they choose. In fact if it wasn't for all you wonderful people here, I would have not been able to see that everybody is different. What works for some, does not work for others. I just have issues with labels. Nobody is powerless.

Addiction is not a disease. Diseases are caused by infections, outside agents over which the affected individual has no control.....the addict becomes convinced that he has no responsibility for his condition (lousy parents, a bad wife, a crappy job.....the excuses are endless). And now he has no control over the outside agents that caused his "disease", what control does he have over quitting? Very little....how convenient. Addictive behavior involves choice and consent

I'm done making excuses and blaming myself for his obnoxious behaviors, blaming Jim Beam, Paul Masson, Jack Daniels or any other of his Buddies....he acts how he acts because it is who he is. Again, how convenient to blame a bottle of poison when you choose to pour down your throat. Just my opinion.

m1k3

Hi Jacrazz, to a large degree I agree with you but, and you know there had to be a but didn't you, is the powerless thing.

I have been working a mindfulness program with some Buddhism and Daoism thrown in. The idea of powerlessness to me has to do with the illusion of control. I have no control over other people, places and things. I have no control over the past or especially over the future. Way too many variables there. I don't have the ability to make anyone do something or not do something. That is their choice no matter how much I may coerce them. The problem was I lived my life and made decisions as if I did.

This lead to a lot of problems for me. Heck, I can't even control my thoughts and emotions. I think things that I would rather not, I feel things I would rather not. What I have learned is that the only thing I can control is how I react to these thoughts and emotions. I don't have to take unpleasant thoughts and run with them, I don't have to wallow in my emotions, feed them and help them grow. I can allows them to simply pass with no response on my own other than to look at them, acknowledge them and then let them go.

To me it was learning how to accept reality as it is. Because of this my life is a whole lot better than it was. I don't get into screening fights with people in my head anymore. I don't waste so much time trying to replay things in my head going I should have done this or I should have done that. I take responsibility for my choices and move on.

When looked at using mindfulness as my primary filter I did manage to find plenty of useful tools in AlAnon and those self help book. I didn't have to agree with the whole program or all of their conclusions or wrap myself in their labels to take advantage of the wisdom that could be found there.

Of course this is just my opinion and your mileage may vary.

Your friend,

Lulu39

I agree with this sort of, sometimes Then again, I ran around like a headless chicken trying to make our life look "just so", trying to hide the mess our life was from the kids and the rest of the world LMAO, trying to imagine that one day he would wake up and see what he was doing to himself and us and want to change. All it did was make our house a cosy place for him to drink. He knew I would do whatever it took to maintain the home and the family - thus I ALLOWED him to drink and abuse me and the kids. I didn't cause it, I didn't control it - no matter what I did and there's no way on earth I can cure it but I ALLOWED it in my home. I ALLOWED it to affect me and my kids.

Can someone explain to me why I get this awful, terrible, scared feeling when I know my XAH has again faked sick to his job? It's only a matter of time before they get rid of him and the thought makes me ill. I don't rely on his pissy amount of child support and him losing his job won't affect me, so why does it scare me?

Quish16

I agree with Lillamy -only way I can deal with AH is to consider a disease and that he is sick. I do honestly think that it may (eventually over time) go from being a lifestyle choice to a progressive disease but my main dilemma, is that unlike cancer, it is self inflicted.
I guess we all do the best we can and I actually like the diversity of opinions on the board - don't always agree but in most cases, they make me think.

healthyagain

I used to hate this concept of codependency, but then I decided to give it a try, as well as to the 12-step program (reading about it, but still not brave enough to go to AlAnon, I admit), and things are really better. And it is not only about my husband's alcoholism. As you progress, you learn so much about yourself, you see your mistakes, things that you really never even thought about. And I am enjoying it! I understand people better! Believe it or not, after starting my very own journey, I am actually much nicer to my husband. I actually am able to express what I think about his alcoholism in a much nicer and a more constructive way. This does not mean that he is going to change any time soon, but I realized that he does not have to be the only source of my happiness and I have learned to accept him for who he is, with his good and not so good sides.

jacrazz

Im not trying to do either. In the words of AA and ALANON "Take what you like, and leave the rest" It is a bigger problem that is out of my control, but its not my problem, its My A's. And ill be damned if im going to give him the crutch of "you got fired again?....I know honey, its your disease. You cheated on me? I know, its your disease. What, another DUI? you poor thing, its your disease. "Im a worthless wife and you hate me and your children".... You sick poor man! Are you freaking kidding me?

I get that I will be "labled" as a heteric but as Dandylion stated, what anyone thinks isnt my business.

readerbaby71

Mike, you've put it more eloquently than I ever could have. The word "powerlessness" has always bothered me too, but I have come to the same conclusion as you from studying buddhism, and found some of the tenets of Alanon helpful. I don't like to call it powerlessness, and I'm not a huge fan of Codependent No More. I don't see codependency as a disease. It's a behavior that is learned and can be changed. It's a matter of letting go of the things we cannot control, which is so freeing. Detachment in its purest form, which is incredibly empowering.

Thanks for this post.

jacrazz

I absolutely agree with and can relate with your feelings. What I dont agree with is accepting the QUAKERY that come out of their mouths, their ridiculous behavior as symptoms of the "Disease".

readerbaby71

Jazzcrazz, my BF and I were talking about this subject last night. He's been going to AA every day, and is getting a lot out of it. We both agreed though, that the disease model is flawed. While alcoholics become physically addicted, most of the reasons why people drink are psychological. Alcohol numbs our emotional pain (temporarily), but in the end makes it much, much worse. Being an alcoholic or addict doesn't make someone a bad person. However, it comes down to really TRYING and WANTING to stop for your own benefit and the benefit of those around you. So many factors go into why people drink, and why some become alcoholics. I don't believe anyone is powerless. They may not have control OVER alcohol, but they are far from powerless over themselves. People change every day and turn their lives around.

m1k3

Don't worry about the heritic label, there are many schools of thought that get expressed on this forum.

IMO alcoholism is labeled a disease for the same reason obesity is, so that treatment will be covered by insurance. I have type II diabetes. If I don't watch what I eat, take my medicine and exercise then I have no right to complain when I suffer the consiquences of my actions and my disease.

Your friend,