The codependency conspiracy......
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To me it was learning how to accept reality as it is.
I got through the first chapter. Which talked about the concept of radical acceptance. I think it was LaTeeDa who said that when we think things are complicated, it's largely the result of magical thinking -- and reality is pretty simple. Radical acceptance is exactly what you talk about, Mike: Accepting things as they are, not as we wish they were.
I think whether you want to call yourself sick or not matters less than realizing that when you're involved with an alcoholic, you tend to develop certain behaviors to protect yourself, to survive, that are unhealthy for you. And just like other habits, you need to be aware of them and be able to identify them in order to be able to break them.
I think I told you guys that I was talking with my family (kids and new husband) about alcoholism and codependency and I said "and I'm really happy that I haven't developed one codependent trait that's very common, and that is being controlling." They all just about fell of their chairs laughing. My new husband laughed so hard he was crying. I really did not believe I was controlling. Until I started paying attention to how I even bossed my husband around in the grocery store: "Stay here while I go get the cereal."
I've struggled with the "disease" moniker for alcoholism because I felt like it removed responsibility from the drunk. I've struggled to call myself "sick" because I tend to agree, Jacrazz, that it's not as much a sickness as it is unhealthy behavior. Sort of like eating fast food every day or not exercising. It's an unhealthy behavior that you need to be aware of in order to be able to change it. So "sickness" works as shorthand for me. The word wasn't the problem; the problem for me was that I simply didn't think there was anything I needed to change. I thought all I needed was to get the gddamn drunk out of my life and all would be peaches and cream again. And I think the realization that that wasn't the case, that I had been affected in ways I wasn't fully aware of, was important.
Heck I'm still struggling with that big time four years out. Big. Time.
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Join Date: Aug 2013
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Originally Posted by lillamy 
m1k3 -- THANK YOU. Someone gave me a book to read -- another one of those self-help books that isn't geared specifically to people affected by addiction problems, but more helping with the fallout of traumatic experiences.
I got through the first chapter. Which talked about the concept of radical acceptance. I think it was LaTeeDa who said that when we think things are complicated, it's largely the result of magical thinking -- and reality is pretty simple. Radical acceptance is exactly what you talk about, Mike: Accepting things as they are, not as we wish they were.
I think whether you want to call yourself sick or not matters less than realizing that when you're involved with an alcoholic, you tend to develop certain behaviors to protect yourself, to survive, that are unhealthy for you. And just like other habits, you need to be aware of them and be able to identify them in order to be able to break them.
I think I told you guys that I was talking with my family (kids and new husband) about alcoholism and codependency and I said "and I'm really happy that I haven't developed one codependent trait that's very common, and that is being controlling." They all just about fell of their chairs laughing. My new husband laughed so hard he was crying. I really did not believe I was controlling. Until I started paying attention to how I even bossed my husband around in the grocery store: "Stay here while I go get the cereal."
I've struggled with the "disease" moniker for alcoholism because I felt like it removed responsibility from the drunk. I've struggled to call myself "sick" because I tend to agree, Jacrazz, that it's not as much a sickness as it is unhealthy behavior. Sort of like eating fast food every day or not exercising. It's an unhealthy behavior that you need to be aware of in order to be able to change it. So "sickness" works as shorthand for me. The word wasn't the problem; the problem for me was that I simply didn't think there was anything I needed to change. I thought all I needed was to get the gddamn drunk out of my life and all would be peaches and cream again. And I think the realization that that wasn't the case, that I had been affected in ways I wasn't fully aware of, was important.
Heck I'm still struggling with that big time four years out. Big. Time.
I got through the first chapter. Which talked about the concept of radical acceptance. I think it was LaTeeDa who said that when we think things are complicated, it's largely the result of magical thinking -- and reality is pretty simple. Radical acceptance is exactly what you talk about, Mike: Accepting things as they are, not as we wish they were.
I think whether you want to call yourself sick or not matters less than realizing that when you're involved with an alcoholic, you tend to develop certain behaviors to protect yourself, to survive, that are unhealthy for you. And just like other habits, you need to be aware of them and be able to identify them in order to be able to break them.
I think I told you guys that I was talking with my family (kids and new husband) about alcoholism and codependency and I said "and I'm really happy that I haven't developed one codependent trait that's very common, and that is being controlling." They all just about fell of their chairs laughing. My new husband laughed so hard he was crying. I really did not believe I was controlling. Until I started paying attention to how I even bossed my husband around in the grocery store: "Stay here while I go get the cereal."
I've struggled with the "disease" moniker for alcoholism because I felt like it removed responsibility from the drunk. I've struggled to call myself "sick" because I tend to agree, Jacrazz, that it's not as much a sickness as it is unhealthy behavior. Sort of like eating fast food every day or not exercising. It's an unhealthy behavior that you need to be aware of in order to be able to change it. So "sickness" works as shorthand for me. The word wasn't the problem; the problem for me was that I simply didn't think there was anything I needed to change. I thought all I needed was to get the gddamn drunk out of my life and all would be peaches and cream again. And I think the realization that that wasn't the case, that I had been affected in ways I wasn't fully aware of, was important.
Heck I'm still struggling with that big time four years out. Big. Time.
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Originally Posted by readerbaby71
Lillamy, the most valuable thing I got out of alanon was realizing that my "helping" was really my need to control. I was shocked. I never considered myself a controlling person. Actually I thought I was the opposite. After having this epiphany the situation has become so much easier to deal with. The only thoughts, feelings and actions I can control are my own. It's been a relief to just let things be instead of worrying myself sick and/or trying to control people and situations.
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See, I'm not helping people -- I just know best because I'm one heckuva organizer and kickass at getting things done. So I don't understand why they wouldn't want me running the show since I'm clearly the best person at it?
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Join Date: Oct 2013
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I, too have struggled with allowing the "disease model" as an "excuse" for bad behavior-especially the bad behavior that has really hurt me.
I used to work with ADHD kids, and post-diagnosis I would often say to parents, ADHD is not an EXCUSE, but its an EXPLAINATION. If you/the child learn about it, understand it, and can use that knowledge to help the kid learn strategies to BEHAVE BETTER than that becomes powerful to you/the child. If you just use it as an excuse to maintain the status quo, than what was the point in going through testing to get a diagnosis. The purpose of the diagnosis is to put a treatment plan in place that will lead to better outcomes.
I never used to fully buy into the disease model, but once this all hit home in my own family, I started to buy into it. I agree, that for me, it is easier to accept how he can do these things that HURT ME when I accept that model. HOWEVER, understanding and accepting the disease model, for me, does not EXCUSE his addictive behaviors. It's a model for EXPLAINING and UNDERSTANDING SO THAT he can get the support and learn the tools he needs to be able to MANAGE this disease. And I also agree that it did not start off as a disease-it started off as bad choices, repeatedly, coupled with bad genetics and a lot of repetition, and it progressed into a disease.
All that said, it's hard to feel sorry for the person who HAS A DISEASE and doesn't take steps to get them selves healthier-whether it is alcoholism, lung cancer, obesity, or diabetes.
I also completely resisted the idea of CODEPENDENCY. I did very little to "enable" my husband's drinking, except to save face in public with my family or coworkers. To be honest, I still don't really feel like an enabler or think much of the "codependent" label, but when I went to family night at Husband's treatment program and they showed a video on codependency, I will say, I saw a lot of myself in that video...I am still kind of resentful that because of my husband's "disease" I now am "supposed" to be going to alanon and reading these books, etc. but I am doing it/going to do it for him. I will go/read and IF they help ME, then I will continue. If I do it, it's for me, not for him. And if it HELPS me, then I guess it's worth my while.
I used to work with ADHD kids, and post-diagnosis I would often say to parents, ADHD is not an EXCUSE, but its an EXPLAINATION. If you/the child learn about it, understand it, and can use that knowledge to help the kid learn strategies to BEHAVE BETTER than that becomes powerful to you/the child. If you just use it as an excuse to maintain the status quo, than what was the point in going through testing to get a diagnosis. The purpose of the diagnosis is to put a treatment plan in place that will lead to better outcomes.
I never used to fully buy into the disease model, but once this all hit home in my own family, I started to buy into it. I agree, that for me, it is easier to accept how he can do these things that HURT ME when I accept that model. HOWEVER, understanding and accepting the disease model, for me, does not EXCUSE his addictive behaviors. It's a model for EXPLAINING and UNDERSTANDING SO THAT he can get the support and learn the tools he needs to be able to MANAGE this disease. And I also agree that it did not start off as a disease-it started off as bad choices, repeatedly, coupled with bad genetics and a lot of repetition, and it progressed into a disease.
All that said, it's hard to feel sorry for the person who HAS A DISEASE and doesn't take steps to get them selves healthier-whether it is alcoholism, lung cancer, obesity, or diabetes.
I also completely resisted the idea of CODEPENDENCY. I did very little to "enable" my husband's drinking, except to save face in public with my family or coworkers. To be honest, I still don't really feel like an enabler or think much of the "codependent" label, but when I went to family night at Husband's treatment program and they showed a video on codependency, I will say, I saw a lot of myself in that video...I am still kind of resentful that because of my husband's "disease" I now am "supposed" to be going to alanon and reading these books, etc. but I am doing it/going to do it for him. I will go/read and IF they help ME, then I will continue. If I do it, it's for me, not for him. And if it HELPS me, then I guess it's worth my while.
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Join Date: May 2013
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One of the greatest gifts I've gotten out of al anon is to trust my own core gut reaction. After a few meetings my gut was telling me loudly that al anon was the right program for me even though I never thought of myself as a self help person, never wanted to be in a 12 step, didn't like the disease model etc. And it has been. If that book deeply resonated with you, listen to yourself.
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Join Date: Apr 2013
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LvWrAM123
I agree with what you have put. I personally nee AH 'ill' but I also agree it is self inflicted! My AH is 74 and has had brain surgery in July, so I am dealing with genuine illness and alcoholism - sometimes hard to work out where one starts and the other ends. For example, in April, when I went to his doctor to try and work out why my AH personality has changed so much and why he was so very very abusive and full of hate, I was told that it was late stage alcohol abuse and he couldn't discuss it with me. But it was actually a hematoma building up which was pressing on the brain. Yes, the falls were probably exacerbated by the alcoholism and the atrophy made him morevulnerable.
No easy answers - this board has made me think. Yes, being late stage alcoholic shouldn't be an 'excuse' for behaving badly!
I agree with what you have put. I personally nee AH 'ill' but I also agree it is self inflicted! My AH is 74 and has had brain surgery in July, so I am dealing with genuine illness and alcoholism - sometimes hard to work out where one starts and the other ends. For example, in April, when I went to his doctor to try and work out why my AH personality has changed so much and why he was so very very abusive and full of hate, I was told that it was late stage alcohol abuse and he couldn't discuss it with me. But it was actually a hematoma building up which was pressing on the brain. Yes, the falls were probably exacerbated by the alcoholism and the atrophy made him morevulnerable.
No easy answers - this board has made me think. Yes, being late stage alcoholic shouldn't be an 'excuse' for behaving badly!
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Jacrazz--There is a book called: Many Roads One Journey---Moving Beyond the Twelve Steps by Charlotte Davis Kasl, Ph.D. (who also wrote "Women.Sex, and addiction").
I think it might be just the thing for you on this subject.
You can get it cheaply, used, at Amazon.com
dandylion
I think it might be just the thing for you on this subject.
You can get it cheaply, used, at Amazon.com
dandylion
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Originally Posted by dandylion
Jacrazz--There is a book called: Many Roads One Journey---Moving Beyond the Twelve Steps by Charlotte Davis Kasl, Ph.D. (who also wrote "Women.Sex, and addiction").
I think it might be just the thing for you on this subject.
You can get it cheaply, used, at Amazon.com
dandylion
I think it might be just the thing for you on this subject.
You can get it cheaply, used, at Amazon.com
dandylion
"Internalized oppression is not the cause of our mistreatment, it is the result of our mistreatment. It would not exist without the real external oppression that forms the social climate in which we exist. Once oppression has been internalized, little force is needed to keep us submissive. We harbour inside ourselves the pain and the memories, the fears and the confusions, the negative self-images and the low expectations, turning them into weapons with which to re-injure ourselves, every day of our lives"
Seems disempowering. IMHO
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