Newbie - dating a cocaine addict
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Newbie - dating a cocaine addict
I’m new here, this is my first post and I hope I don’t break any rules...
I’m dating a cocaine addict. We’ve been dating for 2 months and, so far, we have a great relationship. We initially met online and arranged to meet in person within a week or so of first contact. He was open from the get-go about the fact that he uses cocaine and, on the day that we had arranged to meet, just a couple of hours before our date, told me about his addiction of 4 years. As an ex-raver (ex of about 5 years) I have used many drugs and, in the main, my use has been recreational (although at times, very regular). In fact, I have always avoided using cocaine any more often than occasionally, because I was always concerned that it would be the substance that, for me, would lead to trouble.
For ease of writing, let’s call him Joe. Joe’s an intelligent, articulate, self-aware, insightful guy. He’s educated, intellectually agile and modest. He’s a teacher, so can deal flexibly with all manner of weird situations and pressure; and he’s patient, kind and gentle. He looks like a functional, polite, respectable guy. Joe’s a good guy, which is why I’m so damn sad for him. He knows that his life is ****ed up, badly ****ed up.
To give you an idea of his habit, during term-time he’s a weekend user and will generally get through 3-5 grams over the course of a weekend. He doesn’t use socially, he uses alone at home. I’ve known him consume 5g alone, in one evening. He uses until there’s nothing left or until such a point that he has to sleep in order to work the next day. So, then he eats benzodiazepines - up to 50mg of valium at a time, or an equivalent quantity of xanax. Although he doesn’t drink at all heavily, on a hardcore night in, there’d usually be a couple of cans of beer thrown in there as well.
The quantities of coke he sometimes gets through are scary but nothing scares me like the benzos. He eats dangerous amounts of them - *really* dangerous. He’s absolutely destroyed by the pills for 24-36 hours after waking. He’s told me that a few years ago he was addicted to pills, as well.
Joe’s a heavy smoker of both tobacco and cannabis as well as being a semi-regular gambler. He freely acknowledges all of his addictions and considers himself an untreatable addict - that is to say, he believes he can beat any of the individual addictions he has now, but he considers there will always be some kind of addiction in his life - just (hopefully) some less harmful ones.
When we first met, he had a heavy, heavy night on coke. As usual, alone. He woke to find 5 baggies and no recollection of most of the previous evening. His conclusion? He must have eaten a handful of pills after nailing 5g. It scared him, although it’s far from being the first time his habit has done so. Almost immediately, he reduced his use and achieved 2 weeks clean. Then a 3 week relapse. Then a week clean and now yesterday, a relapse.
His self-opinion is pitifully low and he suffers the most debilitating sense of shame. He’s secluded himself from his friends - only myself and one other person know the full extent of the problem. He can’t function socially because he’s way past the point where cocaine is fun - he’s simply maintaining. He avoids people because of the sense of shame and self-consciousness he has about his habit. He’s isolated, lonely, frightened, sad and depressed.
He’s tried to get therapy but really struggles to talk about his feelings and to trust people when he’s feeling exposed. Previous attempts at therapy have seen him withhold the full extent of the issue from healthcare professionals and he recently admitted that he uses more frequently than simply the occasions that he (freely and openly) tells me of.
He doesn’t want to be a cocaine addict but he doesn’t know how to stop.
He’s convinced that he will always withhold in therapy because he doesn’t trust the expertise or sincerity of any of the professionals he has met thus far - I should add here that we’re both expatriated in a country where therapists are not regulated as they might be in the US or Europe- and that as serious as he believes his addiction is, it doesn’t warrant residential detox. He’s suspicious of most of the traditional routes to recovery - 12 Steps et al - and so he’s been trying to come off it solo. He has *my* support, whatever method he chooses, despite there being times (especially on a benzo comedown) when he is close to intolerable.
The situation now is that he’s simply trying not to use. He doesn’t have a clear long-term objective - only that he’d like to be able to be an occasional user. I believe this is unrealistic and have told him so, but if there’s one thing you can be sure of, it’s if you say to Joe that he ‘must, ‘should’ or ‘needs to’ do something, he’ll turn tail and do exactly the opposite with twice the vigour, bless him. He hasn’t developed a strategy to fill the gap left by cocaine - in terms of either the empty time or the lack of positive, engaging stimulation. He’s just trying not to use. After a week, he’s so wrecked with withdrawals that he can’t sleep, he’s anxious almost to the point of agoraphobia and he’ll have used pills maybe 3 times. He spends this time in the same apartment where he’s lived and used coke for the past 2 years, feet up on the same glass table(!), surrounded by triggers.
When he’s going well, I try to be supportive and positive without being evangelical. I mean every word of every bolstering comment and every positive stroke I give him, they're all utterly sincere. When he relapses, I encourage him to drive over the bump, rather than taking the car home and putting it in the garage. I can empathise with many of the internal processes that he suffers as a result of his addiction. This isn’t my story, it’s Joe’s, but I have personally recovered from prolonged depression/anxiety and dealt with the shame and guilt and all of the other feelings we get when we don’t feel like functional members of society. A lot of this stuff, I get, at least a little bit. BUT - I know nothing about the cravings. I see that they are intense and I see the power that they have and the abject loss of control that Joe experiences. I see the cycle of self-hatred and shame and the desire for pleasure that turns down the volume on these negative emotions. When he’s dealing with these feelings, I try to help him find reasons to be kind to himself and, if he can’t do that, I’m kind to him myself - I try to lead by example.
I’m not a drugs counsellor, I don’t know what to do, past what I mentioned above. I’m not sure that he can do this alone but he doesn’t seem to think there’s necessarily any other option. I do my best - there are times when I use all the resources and energy at my disposal - but I’m driving blind, I just don’t have the expertise. We had a row today - not about drugs, but almost certainly because he was on a pill comedown. He’d taken pills in the daytime to deal with the cravings and after the row, took several more. When he’s like this - on pills, for the cravings - I can’t deal with him, I can’t keep him engaged in anything. And even when we are having a decent, sober dialogue about his habit (which we do a couple of times a week), there’s nothing I can say that seems to be persuasive enough to even make him consider altering his approach to stopping. And why should there be?! I’m no expert, I’m just spouting random, seemingly useful suggestions - many of which, to an addict who has spent 4 years considering every aspect and nuance of his addiction, are clumsy and over-simplified.
He’s almost at the point, at *that* point. Or at least he hopes he is. He hopes that he can stop using before it gets to *that* point, to rock bottom, wherever that lies. There was a serious incident last week, involving a brush with the local law enforcement, which should have scared the beejesus out of him (remember, we don’t live in a developed, Western society and we don’t have residency - a police encounter is definitely a thing to avoid). He admits, it didn’t scare him anywhere near enough. And that’s frightened him.
He’s had 2 relapses in a month but he wants this habit to stop, he just feels so damn out of control. I’m worried that his (limited) confidence and (limited) positivity can’t take many more relapses before he gives up and resigns himself to his addiction again.
Thanks so much for reading this - I know it’s long.
And I know that 2 months dating is no kind of an investment - there’s not so much invested that I wouldn’t leave if the situation became untenable for me but I like this guy a lot, we have a lovely time together and I want to see him happy and recovered. Day to day crazy-ass addict behaviour though...man, I’m lost. I honestly don’t have a clue how to deal with him.
I know that I can’t change him and, if it ever gets to the point where I’m not having a good time and I can no longer accept who is and be happy, then I would walk away from the situation. I feel no compulsion to fix him up.
Maybe one of you will have something to say that might help? Any advice, suggestions, wisdom?
Thanks all,
Hesta
I’m dating a cocaine addict. We’ve been dating for 2 months and, so far, we have a great relationship. We initially met online and arranged to meet in person within a week or so of first contact. He was open from the get-go about the fact that he uses cocaine and, on the day that we had arranged to meet, just a couple of hours before our date, told me about his addiction of 4 years. As an ex-raver (ex of about 5 years) I have used many drugs and, in the main, my use has been recreational (although at times, very regular). In fact, I have always avoided using cocaine any more often than occasionally, because I was always concerned that it would be the substance that, for me, would lead to trouble.
For ease of writing, let’s call him Joe. Joe’s an intelligent, articulate, self-aware, insightful guy. He’s educated, intellectually agile and modest. He’s a teacher, so can deal flexibly with all manner of weird situations and pressure; and he’s patient, kind and gentle. He looks like a functional, polite, respectable guy. Joe’s a good guy, which is why I’m so damn sad for him. He knows that his life is ****ed up, badly ****ed up.
To give you an idea of his habit, during term-time he’s a weekend user and will generally get through 3-5 grams over the course of a weekend. He doesn’t use socially, he uses alone at home. I’ve known him consume 5g alone, in one evening. He uses until there’s nothing left or until such a point that he has to sleep in order to work the next day. So, then he eats benzodiazepines - up to 50mg of valium at a time, or an equivalent quantity of xanax. Although he doesn’t drink at all heavily, on a hardcore night in, there’d usually be a couple of cans of beer thrown in there as well.
The quantities of coke he sometimes gets through are scary but nothing scares me like the benzos. He eats dangerous amounts of them - *really* dangerous. He’s absolutely destroyed by the pills for 24-36 hours after waking. He’s told me that a few years ago he was addicted to pills, as well.
Joe’s a heavy smoker of both tobacco and cannabis as well as being a semi-regular gambler. He freely acknowledges all of his addictions and considers himself an untreatable addict - that is to say, he believes he can beat any of the individual addictions he has now, but he considers there will always be some kind of addiction in his life - just (hopefully) some less harmful ones.
When we first met, he had a heavy, heavy night on coke. As usual, alone. He woke to find 5 baggies and no recollection of most of the previous evening. His conclusion? He must have eaten a handful of pills after nailing 5g. It scared him, although it’s far from being the first time his habit has done so. Almost immediately, he reduced his use and achieved 2 weeks clean. Then a 3 week relapse. Then a week clean and now yesterday, a relapse.
His self-opinion is pitifully low and he suffers the most debilitating sense of shame. He’s secluded himself from his friends - only myself and one other person know the full extent of the problem. He can’t function socially because he’s way past the point where cocaine is fun - he’s simply maintaining. He avoids people because of the sense of shame and self-consciousness he has about his habit. He’s isolated, lonely, frightened, sad and depressed.
He’s tried to get therapy but really struggles to talk about his feelings and to trust people when he’s feeling exposed. Previous attempts at therapy have seen him withhold the full extent of the issue from healthcare professionals and he recently admitted that he uses more frequently than simply the occasions that he (freely and openly) tells me of.
He doesn’t want to be a cocaine addict but he doesn’t know how to stop.
He’s convinced that he will always withhold in therapy because he doesn’t trust the expertise or sincerity of any of the professionals he has met thus far - I should add here that we’re both expatriated in a country where therapists are not regulated as they might be in the US or Europe- and that as serious as he believes his addiction is, it doesn’t warrant residential detox. He’s suspicious of most of the traditional routes to recovery - 12 Steps et al - and so he’s been trying to come off it solo. He has *my* support, whatever method he chooses, despite there being times (especially on a benzo comedown) when he is close to intolerable.
The situation now is that he’s simply trying not to use. He doesn’t have a clear long-term objective - only that he’d like to be able to be an occasional user. I believe this is unrealistic and have told him so, but if there’s one thing you can be sure of, it’s if you say to Joe that he ‘must, ‘should’ or ‘needs to’ do something, he’ll turn tail and do exactly the opposite with twice the vigour, bless him. He hasn’t developed a strategy to fill the gap left by cocaine - in terms of either the empty time or the lack of positive, engaging stimulation. He’s just trying not to use. After a week, he’s so wrecked with withdrawals that he can’t sleep, he’s anxious almost to the point of agoraphobia and he’ll have used pills maybe 3 times. He spends this time in the same apartment where he’s lived and used coke for the past 2 years, feet up on the same glass table(!), surrounded by triggers.
When he’s going well, I try to be supportive and positive without being evangelical. I mean every word of every bolstering comment and every positive stroke I give him, they're all utterly sincere. When he relapses, I encourage him to drive over the bump, rather than taking the car home and putting it in the garage. I can empathise with many of the internal processes that he suffers as a result of his addiction. This isn’t my story, it’s Joe’s, but I have personally recovered from prolonged depression/anxiety and dealt with the shame and guilt and all of the other feelings we get when we don’t feel like functional members of society. A lot of this stuff, I get, at least a little bit. BUT - I know nothing about the cravings. I see that they are intense and I see the power that they have and the abject loss of control that Joe experiences. I see the cycle of self-hatred and shame and the desire for pleasure that turns down the volume on these negative emotions. When he’s dealing with these feelings, I try to help him find reasons to be kind to himself and, if he can’t do that, I’m kind to him myself - I try to lead by example.
I’m not a drugs counsellor, I don’t know what to do, past what I mentioned above. I’m not sure that he can do this alone but he doesn’t seem to think there’s necessarily any other option. I do my best - there are times when I use all the resources and energy at my disposal - but I’m driving blind, I just don’t have the expertise. We had a row today - not about drugs, but almost certainly because he was on a pill comedown. He’d taken pills in the daytime to deal with the cravings and after the row, took several more. When he’s like this - on pills, for the cravings - I can’t deal with him, I can’t keep him engaged in anything. And even when we are having a decent, sober dialogue about his habit (which we do a couple of times a week), there’s nothing I can say that seems to be persuasive enough to even make him consider altering his approach to stopping. And why should there be?! I’m no expert, I’m just spouting random, seemingly useful suggestions - many of which, to an addict who has spent 4 years considering every aspect and nuance of his addiction, are clumsy and over-simplified.
He’s almost at the point, at *that* point. Or at least he hopes he is. He hopes that he can stop using before it gets to *that* point, to rock bottom, wherever that lies. There was a serious incident last week, involving a brush with the local law enforcement, which should have scared the beejesus out of him (remember, we don’t live in a developed, Western society and we don’t have residency - a police encounter is definitely a thing to avoid). He admits, it didn’t scare him anywhere near enough. And that’s frightened him.
He’s had 2 relapses in a month but he wants this habit to stop, he just feels so damn out of control. I’m worried that his (limited) confidence and (limited) positivity can’t take many more relapses before he gives up and resigns himself to his addiction again.
Thanks so much for reading this - I know it’s long.
And I know that 2 months dating is no kind of an investment - there’s not so much invested that I wouldn’t leave if the situation became untenable for me but I like this guy a lot, we have a lovely time together and I want to see him happy and recovered. Day to day crazy-ass addict behaviour though...man, I’m lost. I honestly don’t have a clue how to deal with him.
I know that I can’t change him and, if it ever gets to the point where I’m not having a good time and I can no longer accept who is and be happy, then I would walk away from the situation. I feel no compulsion to fix him up.
Maybe one of you will have something to say that might help? Any advice, suggestions, wisdom?
Thanks all,
Hesta
Member
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 198
If he really wants to quit he can seek out Cocaine Anonymous or Narcotics Anonympus meetings, get a sponsor, work the steps, and learn fom the experiences of recovering addicts. If face-to-face meetings are not available where you live, he could seek out online support. you say that he resists 12 step groups but they have helped many. He has to want recovery, however, and be willing to go to any lengths for it. Your concern and support can't make this happen. Certainly you can encourage him, but ultimately it is up to him. Just take care of yourself and don't let the relationship drag you down.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,439
You are committed to his recovery. He is not.
I wouldn't call dealing with a coke addict a good time. My advice is to leave now.
Nobody in the depths of addiction is ready to be a good partner. His energy needs to go to fixing him.
You deserve a caring, confident person who can focus his energy on YOUR RELATIONSHIP.
All addicts care about is their drug... he doesn't want to go to a 12-step program because he doesn't want to stop using. He doesn't come up with other things to do because he doesn't really want to stop using. He doesn't want to go to a counselor because he doesn't really want to stop using. He doesn't stop using because he doesn't really want to stop using.
If it was a choice between you and coke... I'd bet $100 he'd pick the coke. Try telling him you'll leave if he relapses again... he'll use anyway. Because addicts only care about drugs. Addicts don't care about other people.
Addicts have to get better on their own. You can't help. No matter how much you want to. You can only get pulled down with the addict.
He is a cocaine addict. He's not working any sort of recovery program so he will remain a cocaine addict. If you are happy with that and accept it, then stay.
Personally, I would not want to be with a coke addict for the rest of my life, so I would leave now.
I wouldn't call dealing with a coke addict a good time. My advice is to leave now.
Nobody in the depths of addiction is ready to be a good partner. His energy needs to go to fixing him.
You deserve a caring, confident person who can focus his energy on YOUR RELATIONSHIP.
All addicts care about is their drug... he doesn't want to go to a 12-step program because he doesn't want to stop using. He doesn't come up with other things to do because he doesn't really want to stop using. He doesn't want to go to a counselor because he doesn't really want to stop using. He doesn't stop using because he doesn't really want to stop using.
If it was a choice between you and coke... I'd bet $100 he'd pick the coke. Try telling him you'll leave if he relapses again... he'll use anyway. Because addicts only care about drugs. Addicts don't care about other people.
Addicts have to get better on their own. You can't help. No matter how much you want to. You can only get pulled down with the addict.
He is a cocaine addict. He's not working any sort of recovery program so he will remain a cocaine addict. If you are happy with that and accept it, then stay.
Personally, I would not want to be with a coke addict for the rest of my life, so I would leave now.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: W Washington
Posts: 11,589
2 months - serious coke problem, serious pill problem, serious weed problem.
these conditions FAR preceded you....and i'm sorry, but you are not HIS solution. you are right, you are not a drug counselor, and that is not what DATING is for. you are ill equipped to deal with addiction. and he is not READY to be done yet.
2 months, not sure how many more red flags you need. he's out of control when he uses, he's had a brush with the law, he admits he's not done.
2 months and you are turning yourself inside out trying to "help" him to stop, yet you state you have no desire to FIX him. if that's the case, then walk away and leave him be.
these conditions FAR preceded you....and i'm sorry, but you are not HIS solution. you are right, you are not a drug counselor, and that is not what DATING is for. you are ill equipped to deal with addiction. and he is not READY to be done yet.
2 months, not sure how many more red flags you need. he's out of control when he uses, he's had a brush with the law, he admits he's not done.
2 months and you are turning yourself inside out trying to "help" him to stop, yet you state you have no desire to FIX him. if that's the case, then walk away and leave him be.
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 220
How are youdoing with all this? What are yougaining from this relationship?
The stickies at the top of this forum are amazing. You sound like an incredibly compassionate caring person. I am too. But I now know that I can't help find recovery for someone else. I have to have boundaries or I will completely lose myself in someone else's addiction and life.
Codependent No More is am amazing book. The first time I read it, I highlighted so much. Yet I still rationalized that my addict, and my relationship with my addict was different. Time, hitting my rock bottom and re-reading the book, as well as grasping tightly to these forums led me to the realization that my situation was no different.
Hang out for a while.
The stickies at the top of this forum are amazing. You sound like an incredibly compassionate caring person. I am too. But I now know that I can't help find recovery for someone else. I have to have boundaries or I will completely lose myself in someone else's addiction and life.
Codependent No More is am amazing book. The first time I read it, I highlighted so much. Yet I still rationalized that my addict, and my relationship with my addict was different. Time, hitting my rock bottom and re-reading the book, as well as grasping tightly to these forums led me to the realization that my situation was no different.
Hang out for a while.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: new moon road
Posts: 1,545
"We had a row today."
Your story naturally frightens most or all of us to our depths, given the severity of his addictions. I certainly feel a chill reading about your experiences of the past two months.
You mentioned you have struggled in the past with depression and anxiety. Being in relationship with a drug addict causes depression and anxiety in most people, and with your history of these, your own emotional swings could bring about a relapse into clinical depression or episodes of serious anxiety. Our body chemistry becomes very unstable when we are involved with addicts. All of us are fragile this way, and you, with your history, are very fragile.
This person will eventually turn on you. I know you see him as simply a suffering, shame-filled, lost, good, sick individual. But he is seized up with addiction, and addicts turn on people. It's just the way it is with this condition.
What is vital for you is to know right now that when he eventually does this, what comes out of his mouth will not be true about you. When an addict wants somebody out of his way, he will say the most vile things, and he will know exactly what to say to hit our deepest insecurities and our most wounded parts.
Your addict boyfriend will do this to you one day. When it happens, go get help. Get a counselor. Go to a Nar-Anon or Al-Anon meeting. See a medical doctor for the emotional stress and possible changes to your physical health.
You are naive and inexperienced. He is enchanting to you. You feel needed and vital to him because he is, in your eyes, wounded. But we all here can tell you that that is the mental state of codependency and when we are in this state, we are getting a payoff. When we are martyring ourselves for a drug addict or alcoholic, we are getting a payoff.
What is the payoff? What is the promise?
Many girlfriends of addicts think that if they stick by him, if they put up with him and mother him, then the payoff is that he owes them.
Then when he turns on them--as he will do--they say "After all I did for you, this is how you treat me?"
Many come to SR shattered because they cannot believe the addict turned on them, after all they did for him.
Some of us have been abandoned in childhood, or neglected, and some of us have seen rescuing an addict as a way to keep someone with us.
So, each of us, we have to look at our own motives and impulses and we have to be willing to change.
I hope you will get plenty of support.
Your story naturally frightens most or all of us to our depths, given the severity of his addictions. I certainly feel a chill reading about your experiences of the past two months.
You mentioned you have struggled in the past with depression and anxiety. Being in relationship with a drug addict causes depression and anxiety in most people, and with your history of these, your own emotional swings could bring about a relapse into clinical depression or episodes of serious anxiety. Our body chemistry becomes very unstable when we are involved with addicts. All of us are fragile this way, and you, with your history, are very fragile.
This person will eventually turn on you. I know you see him as simply a suffering, shame-filled, lost, good, sick individual. But he is seized up with addiction, and addicts turn on people. It's just the way it is with this condition.
What is vital for you is to know right now that when he eventually does this, what comes out of his mouth will not be true about you. When an addict wants somebody out of his way, he will say the most vile things, and he will know exactly what to say to hit our deepest insecurities and our most wounded parts.
Your addict boyfriend will do this to you one day. When it happens, go get help. Get a counselor. Go to a Nar-Anon or Al-Anon meeting. See a medical doctor for the emotional stress and possible changes to your physical health.
You are naive and inexperienced. He is enchanting to you. You feel needed and vital to him because he is, in your eyes, wounded. But we all here can tell you that that is the mental state of codependency and when we are in this state, we are getting a payoff. When we are martyring ourselves for a drug addict or alcoholic, we are getting a payoff.
What is the payoff? What is the promise?
Many girlfriends of addicts think that if they stick by him, if they put up with him and mother him, then the payoff is that he owes them.
Then when he turns on them--as he will do--they say "After all I did for you, this is how you treat me?"
Many come to SR shattered because they cannot believe the addict turned on them, after all they did for him.
Some of us have been abandoned in childhood, or neglected, and some of us have seen rescuing an addict as a way to keep someone with us.
So, each of us, we have to look at our own motives and impulses and we have to be willing to change.
I hope you will get plenty of support.
Member
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by EnglishGarden 
When an addict wants somebody out of his way, he will say the most vile things, and he will know exactly what to say to hit our deepest insecurities and our most wounded parts.
Many come to SR shattered because they cannot believe the addict turned on them, after all they did for him.
Many come to SR shattered because they cannot believe the addict turned on them, after all they did for him.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 6
Thanks for your support and replies, everyone. And thanks for the directness, too - it's appreciated.
Some interesting points there, especially the question 'What are *you* getting from the relationship?'. I have a good time, simple. I enjoy myself with him, most of the time (in an at home, anti-social kind of way). I've never seen this as a potential long-term relationship, he's not a potential life-partner. We'll hang out for a while and move on. Or at least that's the 'feel' of things. He's not available to be committed to a partner because he's committed to cocaine. I'm not available to be committed for anything other than the short-term because I'll move on to a different location at some point. We're both travellers, sticking around for a few years in one place and then moving on. There's just nothing long-term about either of our lives. As such, I don't need to be getting a great deal (as many would measure it, anyway) from my romantic relationships, just a simple good time with someone I like and trust and respect. I trust him to be honest with me. If I ask, I'll get an honest answer. Without questions, he's disclosing his truth at his own rate but he IS disclosing. It's hard for him and painful. Sometimes he runs away. He cries every day, although never with me. I respect him, at present. He's a cocaine addict and I'm aware that that could change.
Please try to understand this if any more advice is given - the traditional model of a relationship preceding a commitment, preceding a marriage of some kind is not *my* framework - I have a somewhat less traditional approach to romantic relationships. As such, my needs from a relationship are different to many people's.
For now, I don't mind him being a cocaine addict. I don't have a great deal of investment in the outcome because I'm unlikely to be around that long. I care about him and I want him to be happy and recovered, obviously, but if he chooses not to, then his life as a long-term addict is unlikely to have an impact on me for a great deal of time.
I'm interested in the mentions of co-dependency. Of course, I understand co-dependency as a broad concept, but I'm unfamiliar with the subtleties of its nature and effects. I'm interested to look at my part in the relationship through this lens. For sure, no sensible person without some issues of their own would stick around knowing the full extent of Joe's addiction. Ha - except me - because all of the things that most people need from relationships (regularity, predictability, commitment etc) are things I neither need nor desire. I'm not a regular person and I don't live a regular life - I seek out the unusual and take the weird in my stride. But I appreciate that there are days when I put a lot in and have to question what I get back. I get stuff - rest assured, I get stuff. I wouldn't still be here if I didn't. If I'm not having a good time, I'm out of relationships. He has become somewhat dependent upon me, for sure. If he is not at work or with me, he's having to deal with big cravings. I don't understand them and he's hard to handle when he's craving. Put simply, he's pretty damn irritating, especially if he deals with it by popping pills.
I know I can bale if it gets rough. Except that I would feel as though I was abandoning him. Yup. That's not great. That's a bigger red flag for me than the addiction itself.
Naive, I ain't. Naive about cocaine addiction, yes. I have no previous experience with cocaine addicts, despite knowing many recreational users. I am very familiar with alcoholism - a steady stream of friends (and some family members, too) have been alcoholics over the years. I've had exposure to addiction, is what I mean, I guess. But by dint of *not being physically addictive*, cocaine addiction is SO different to alcoholism. The cravings are something I find hard to understand because they lack a physical aspect.
The pills scare me. They could actually kill him - 50mg of valium ain't to be sniffed at (fnar, fnar). When we don't spend the night together and he does pills, I worry.
Specific people...
@mfanch @story74 - telling me to run doesn't really help. My post should have indicated to you that I have already made the decision not to run, for now, at least. For today. This remains open to review at very little notice.
@mayabee - there is actually an English language NA group here. I was surprised to find that. Thanks for your advice. The clarity was helpful.
@DG0409 - yeah, he would choose coke over me. That in itself, isn't an issue. Whatever I give, I give freely. If I get sick of giving it then I can walk away. I'm intelligent enough to know that I wouldn't actually be abandoning him, merely returning him to the place he was before he and I met. I appreciate your repetition of 'he doesn't want to stop using'. You're right, of course. He's terrified of stopping using and hasn't prepared himself for it in any way.
@AnvilheadII - yeah. Thank you. Yeah, they're all red flags, all of them flapping away, right in my face. I think you're right - he's just not done. I don't think he's desperate enough. I'll talk to him. I'm interested to know what people think about this point, actually - do you think desperation is key to moving toward recovery? Do you think addicts *have* to hit rock bottom? The best outcome would obviously be for him to intervene in his own behaviour and get help before this point. Is it possible? Is it likely? Is there anything that I or anyone else can do here? Addicts may have to begin recovery alone but they don't *achieve* it alone. I've seen a lot of advice on this forum (and others) suggesting that the romantic partners of addicts just leave. Just go. As well as my lover, he's my friend. I care about him as I would any one of my friends. As a traveller I neither have nor need years of history with people before I am close and committed to my friendships, it's just the nature of my lifestyle. I don't want to fix him but I do want him to be well and would like to be able to offer some kind of support to him. Maybe the boundaries of our relationship will change but I don't see myself just severing ties with him. I like him, y'know. Right now, I want him in my life, in some capacity or another.
@bunnynest - thanks. I'm going to give some of those questions some thought and will look for the ebook version of the text you mentioned. I'm curious about this - for sure, we all bring our own baggage to the table. Maybe it's time I did an inventory of the items I carry with me! ;-)
@katiekate - I agree. 100%. He does. He's endangering himself and needs 24 hour support. I can't do that for him. Financially, it's not an option for him to enter residential rehab, even if he thought the situation warrants it.
@englishgarden - I've been recovered from depression for many years now, but thanks for your concern. I appreciate that I am vulnerable to relapse but I'm pretty good at recognising the symptoms and taking action. In truth, I'm not worried about me. I handle it well and get time alone or with other friends when I need to. I'm not naive or inexperienced, though. Not in life, generally, I mean. FYI, I'm definitely in the age bracket that most would term 'mature'. My reasons for staying need questioning, for sure. I looked at Al-Anon meetings locally (I have known people whose lives have been made manageable with the support of Al-Anon) but unfortunately, due to my work schedule, I am unable to make meetings at the available times. The life of a contractor, I'm afraid... But yeah, people who are 100% emotionally healthy don't date cocaine addicts. That's a no-brainer! ;-) Thanks...
Thanks all, for your time and support. I'm not sure where to go from here. I'm going to give it all some considered thought and support and have a no-holds barred conversation with him at some point in the next few days.
I'm definitely more open to the possibility that the relationship may not be able to continue as it has, though.
I'll keep you posted. Thank you, for the perspective - I expect that my thoughts and feelings will develop more over the next few days as I spend more time thinking about this situation.
Hesta
Some interesting points there, especially the question 'What are *you* getting from the relationship?'. I have a good time, simple. I enjoy myself with him, most of the time (in an at home, anti-social kind of way). I've never seen this as a potential long-term relationship, he's not a potential life-partner. We'll hang out for a while and move on. Or at least that's the 'feel' of things. He's not available to be committed to a partner because he's committed to cocaine. I'm not available to be committed for anything other than the short-term because I'll move on to a different location at some point. We're both travellers, sticking around for a few years in one place and then moving on. There's just nothing long-term about either of our lives. As such, I don't need to be getting a great deal (as many would measure it, anyway) from my romantic relationships, just a simple good time with someone I like and trust and respect. I trust him to be honest with me. If I ask, I'll get an honest answer. Without questions, he's disclosing his truth at his own rate but he IS disclosing. It's hard for him and painful. Sometimes he runs away. He cries every day, although never with me. I respect him, at present. He's a cocaine addict and I'm aware that that could change.
Please try to understand this if any more advice is given - the traditional model of a relationship preceding a commitment, preceding a marriage of some kind is not *my* framework - I have a somewhat less traditional approach to romantic relationships. As such, my needs from a relationship are different to many people's.
For now, I don't mind him being a cocaine addict. I don't have a great deal of investment in the outcome because I'm unlikely to be around that long. I care about him and I want him to be happy and recovered, obviously, but if he chooses not to, then his life as a long-term addict is unlikely to have an impact on me for a great deal of time.
I'm interested in the mentions of co-dependency. Of course, I understand co-dependency as a broad concept, but I'm unfamiliar with the subtleties of its nature and effects. I'm interested to look at my part in the relationship through this lens. For sure, no sensible person without some issues of their own would stick around knowing the full extent of Joe's addiction. Ha - except me - because all of the things that most people need from relationships (regularity, predictability, commitment etc) are things I neither need nor desire. I'm not a regular person and I don't live a regular life - I seek out the unusual and take the weird in my stride. But I appreciate that there are days when I put a lot in and have to question what I get back. I get stuff - rest assured, I get stuff. I wouldn't still be here if I didn't. If I'm not having a good time, I'm out of relationships. He has become somewhat dependent upon me, for sure. If he is not at work or with me, he's having to deal with big cravings. I don't understand them and he's hard to handle when he's craving. Put simply, he's pretty damn irritating, especially if he deals with it by popping pills.
I know I can bale if it gets rough. Except that I would feel as though I was abandoning him. Yup. That's not great. That's a bigger red flag for me than the addiction itself.
Naive, I ain't. Naive about cocaine addiction, yes. I have no previous experience with cocaine addicts, despite knowing many recreational users. I am very familiar with alcoholism - a steady stream of friends (and some family members, too) have been alcoholics over the years. I've had exposure to addiction, is what I mean, I guess. But by dint of *not being physically addictive*, cocaine addiction is SO different to alcoholism. The cravings are something I find hard to understand because they lack a physical aspect.
The pills scare me. They could actually kill him - 50mg of valium ain't to be sniffed at (fnar, fnar). When we don't spend the night together and he does pills, I worry.
Specific people...
@mfanch @story74 - telling me to run doesn't really help. My post should have indicated to you that I have already made the decision not to run, for now, at least. For today. This remains open to review at very little notice.
@mayabee - there is actually an English language NA group here. I was surprised to find that. Thanks for your advice. The clarity was helpful.
@DG0409 - yeah, he would choose coke over me. That in itself, isn't an issue. Whatever I give, I give freely. If I get sick of giving it then I can walk away. I'm intelligent enough to know that I wouldn't actually be abandoning him, merely returning him to the place he was before he and I met. I appreciate your repetition of 'he doesn't want to stop using'. You're right, of course. He's terrified of stopping using and hasn't prepared himself for it in any way.
@AnvilheadII - yeah. Thank you. Yeah, they're all red flags, all of them flapping away, right in my face. I think you're right - he's just not done. I don't think he's desperate enough. I'll talk to him. I'm interested to know what people think about this point, actually - do you think desperation is key to moving toward recovery? Do you think addicts *have* to hit rock bottom? The best outcome would obviously be for him to intervene in his own behaviour and get help before this point. Is it possible? Is it likely? Is there anything that I or anyone else can do here? Addicts may have to begin recovery alone but they don't *achieve* it alone. I've seen a lot of advice on this forum (and others) suggesting that the romantic partners of addicts just leave. Just go. As well as my lover, he's my friend. I care about him as I would any one of my friends. As a traveller I neither have nor need years of history with people before I am close and committed to my friendships, it's just the nature of my lifestyle. I don't want to fix him but I do want him to be well and would like to be able to offer some kind of support to him. Maybe the boundaries of our relationship will change but I don't see myself just severing ties with him. I like him, y'know. Right now, I want him in my life, in some capacity or another.
@bunnynest - thanks. I'm going to give some of those questions some thought and will look for the ebook version of the text you mentioned. I'm curious about this - for sure, we all bring our own baggage to the table. Maybe it's time I did an inventory of the items I carry with me! ;-)
@katiekate - I agree. 100%. He does. He's endangering himself and needs 24 hour support. I can't do that for him. Financially, it's not an option for him to enter residential rehab, even if he thought the situation warrants it.
@englishgarden - I've been recovered from depression for many years now, but thanks for your concern. I appreciate that I am vulnerable to relapse but I'm pretty good at recognising the symptoms and taking action. In truth, I'm not worried about me. I handle it well and get time alone or with other friends when I need to. I'm not naive or inexperienced, though. Not in life, generally, I mean. FYI, I'm definitely in the age bracket that most would term 'mature'. My reasons for staying need questioning, for sure. I looked at Al-Anon meetings locally (I have known people whose lives have been made manageable with the support of Al-Anon) but unfortunately, due to my work schedule, I am unable to make meetings at the available times. The life of a contractor, I'm afraid... But yeah, people who are 100% emotionally healthy don't date cocaine addicts. That's a no-brainer! ;-) Thanks...
Thanks all, for your time and support. I'm not sure where to go from here. I'm going to give it all some considered thought and support and have a no-holds barred conversation with him at some point in the next few days.
I'm definitely more open to the possibility that the relationship may not be able to continue as it has, though.
I'll keep you posted. Thank you, for the perspective - I expect that my thoughts and feelings will develop more over the next few days as I spend more time thinking about this situation.
Hesta
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,927
I think you are right to be concerned over the benzo’s, especially with the large quantity you say he is taking. I have a bit of experience with this because of my husband. His main drug was opiate based pain meds (started by prescription) but then he progressed to using cocaine, and Xanax (benzo). When he tried to stop on his own, the benzo withdrawal caused seizures and he had to be taken to the hospital for medical detox. When the time comes a medically supervised taper and detox would be what I would hope could happen for your BF.
A few questions Im going to answer based on my beliefs and my experiences.
My husband was what they call a highly functional user. Able to maintain his career, never had any legal issues, started due to an injury and prescription pain meds. He had no background in drugs/alcohol. To him it was sort of an adventure and a rebellious type of thing; and then the addiction snuck up on him. It did cause issues in our relationship; he would stay out late, lie about things, we would argue. I was naïve and thought if I told him to go and do his thing until he was done, that it would be over quickly. Instead it took over a year. He now has just over a year clean and is doing well, and we are together. He says that he just got tired of living that life, and wanted his old life back. So for him being tired of living that life was his bottom, if you want to call it that. Im not a fan of the term myself. I think it is often used to callously and it is very dangerous to instill the belief people HAVE to hit bottom; that they are just not at a low enough point YET. Also very dangerous to instill the belief that people have to be desperate and willing to do anything before they are ready to accept treatment. These concepts are myths….
These are my beliefs. I also have come to regret asking my husband to leave when he first began using. His use progressed to coke and Xanax as I said. Could it have got worse.. yes… overall he was lucky. But I regret not taking action as a family member and working to get him into treatment sooner. My husband used a non 12 step rehab that was based on private therapy, and then he came home. He continues to work with a therapist for ongoing support. I think your boyfriend is on the right track with therapy, but he needs to find someone that he can open up to, and get real with his problem. For most people the addiction is a symptom of something deeper; and proper treatment can help heal this, and grant him the skills to keep his addiction in check.
The shame, guilt, low self esteem that come from having an addiction I feel are partially caused by beliefs instilled in us by society. He needs to realize having this addiction is not a moral failure, a weakness as a human being. It is a medical condition. It sounds like at some level he realizes this because he is saying he will always have an addiction, but perhaps he will be able to switch it to something healthier. Cross over in addiction is common: Drugs, alcohol, and codependency, gambling, workaholic.
Since you are saying you have a hard time understanding the cravings of drug addiction, there are two resources I will point you to. These are both stickies at the top of this forum, and are based on info from the National Institute of Drug Abuse. The first link also shares information for families and friends. Their belief is people with addiction do need the support of their family. Click on the resource links, and you will find websites full of info for both of you -regarding addiction, treatment, relapse, family roles…
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...rug-abuse.html
The other link Im giving you is one on addiction as a complex disease. It talks about how the drugs affect a persons brain while they are using. At the end of this thread, the very last post; there are links to some youtube clips for a movie called Pleasure Unwoven. It goes through the whole process of how drugs affect the brain, what happens when a craving hits, etc.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ease-nida.html
And the last thing I wanted to mention was on tools for recovery. My view is professional treatment is best, however many people do recover on their own, support from family and friends, through 12 step meetings, Christian programs, using self help programs such as AVRT (Addictive voice recognition techniques) or SMART (self management and recovery training), some people use only this site for support. So truly there is no one means to finding recovery. It’s the initiative to try, and try again; find what works for each person.
A few questions Im going to answer based on my beliefs and my experiences.
Originally Posted by Hesta
I'm interested to know what people think about this point, actually - do you think desperation is key to moving toward recovery? Do you think addicts *have* to hit rock bottom? The best outcome would obviously be for him to intervene in his own behaviour and get help before this point. Is it possible? Is it likely? Is there anything that I or anyone else can do here? Addicts may have to begin recovery alone but they don't *achieve* it alone.
From National Institute of Drug Abuse: “Since so much of our scientific understanding of addiction is relatively new, and since so much about drug and alcohol use is tied up in belief systems, it's not surprising that myths about this disease abound. "There are two main misconceptions that really drive me crazy when it comes to addictions," says Dr. Kathleen Brady, a professor at the Medical University of South Carolina. "One of them is this whole idea that an individual needs to reach rock bottom before they can get any help. That is absolutely wrong. There is no evidence that that's true. In fact, quite the contrary. The earlier in the addiction process that you can intervene and get someone help, the more they have to live for. The more they have to get better for."
The other big myth, says Dr. Nora Volkow, director of the federal government's National Institute on Drug Abuse, is that you have to want to be treated in order to get better. Even as an internationally respected researcher, she once believed that to be true, Volkow says, but she knows now that people who are forced into treatment do recover. Addicted people may be pushed to enter a treatment program by an employer, a companion or the criminal justice system. Employers may threaten to fire a person unless treated; a spouse may threaten to leave the relationship, or the court may offer treatment in lieu of prison. In fact, research has shown that the outcomes for those who are legally mandated to enter treatment can be as good as the outcomes for those who entered treatment voluntarily.
The other big myth, says Dr. Nora Volkow, director of the federal government's National Institute on Drug Abuse, is that you have to want to be treated in order to get better. Even as an internationally respected researcher, she once believed that to be true, Volkow says, but she knows now that people who are forced into treatment do recover. Addicted people may be pushed to enter a treatment program by an employer, a companion or the criminal justice system. Employers may threaten to fire a person unless treated; a spouse may threaten to leave the relationship, or the court may offer treatment in lieu of prison. In fact, research has shown that the outcomes for those who are legally mandated to enter treatment can be as good as the outcomes for those who entered treatment voluntarily.
The shame, guilt, low self esteem that come from having an addiction I feel are partially caused by beliefs instilled in us by society. He needs to realize having this addiction is not a moral failure, a weakness as a human being. It is a medical condition. It sounds like at some level he realizes this because he is saying he will always have an addiction, but perhaps he will be able to switch it to something healthier. Cross over in addiction is common: Drugs, alcohol, and codependency, gambling, workaholic.
Since you are saying you have a hard time understanding the cravings of drug addiction, there are two resources I will point you to. These are both stickies at the top of this forum, and are based on info from the National Institute of Drug Abuse. The first link also shares information for families and friends. Their belief is people with addiction do need the support of their family. Click on the resource links, and you will find websites full of info for both of you -regarding addiction, treatment, relapse, family roles…
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...rug-abuse.html
The other link Im giving you is one on addiction as a complex disease. It talks about how the drugs affect a persons brain while they are using. At the end of this thread, the very last post; there are links to some youtube clips for a movie called Pleasure Unwoven. It goes through the whole process of how drugs affect the brain, what happens when a craving hits, etc.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ease-nida.html
And the last thing I wanted to mention was on tools for recovery. My view is professional treatment is best, however many people do recover on their own, support from family and friends, through 12 step meetings, Christian programs, using self help programs such as AVRT (Addictive voice recognition techniques) or SMART (self management and recovery training), some people use only this site for support. So truly there is no one means to finding recovery. It’s the initiative to try, and try again; find what works for each person.
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Join Date: Jun 2013
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@bunnynest @englishgarden - I just read the 'are you codependent?' thread in the F&F section - can't post the link, I'm afraid.
Wow. I need to spend some time with this stuff, rolling it around and thinking. Thank you.
Wow. I need to spend some time with this stuff, rolling it around and thinking. Thank you.
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Join Date: Feb 2013
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Posts: 11,589
hesta...i'm curious..what was going on in your life that a man you met online with an openly admitted coke addiction was considered even worthy of consideration? if I get this right, you've had hardly ANY time with him when he was not high, coming down or in the midst of miserable cravings. he isolates, runs away and cries, has low self esteem, steers clear of therapy, is suspect about 12 step recovery. you must have to look pretty hard in and around all that STUFF to see the person you think he is.
thing is...he is not himself. oh maybe a shadow here or there, but his addiction, the drugs, the shatteringly low self esteem, the paranoia, have all CHANGED him. if he were to choose to quit and stay quit starting today and dive into SOME type of recovery program, you would barely recognize him a year from now.
i'm a former crack addict. when we met, my husband was about 3 hrs into a relapse...when he finally shared with me what was going on with him, that honesty thing, I made the singularly stupid idea to use with him. figured I knew what I was getting into as I had done a ton of coke back in the day...figured it would be better to have him home with me instead of out there doing god knows what with gods knows who. (whom?).
well, that plan didn't quite go so well. i'm a bright intelligent female, but I didn't really properly assess what I was up against. and within three months of weekend use, like 12 times...ta da...I was an addict. brilliant. then there were the next 4.5 years of my life being ruled by that crap. and it went from fun to unfun pretty quick. hank had been using for about 20 years and I watched the whole "geeked" thing happen...the windows, noises, god forbid a helicopter flew overhead, inspecting my clothes, the floor, hiding behind the couch, or in the closet, and me almost not caring, cuz there was still dope on the plate. it got way worse before it got better.
oh sure today we are 7 something years clean. and doing fine. but the odds were totally against us. if I had not been using WITH him, I could not have dealt with him. when I was ready to STOP he wasn't and I had to put up boundaries and get ready to bail. i tried for awhile to focus on getting HIM to stop, him him him, and he got hostile and my addiction reared its ugly head. and i had to make a choice....me or him.
i chose me. thankfully, he finally was ready to be done. not that he went willingly! took a few years still for him to get over the notion of maybe getting just a little. there were a couple occasions where somebody brought some powder over and hank didn't say no. but that didn't fire up his cravings. or if it did he didn't tell me.
i can't get those years back..i am now and forever one bad decision away from falling into that morass again. the beast never sleeps. recovery is a hard fought battle. and we are never safe, what we get is a daily reprieve.
i fear my dear, you just don't know what you are up against. everybody knows black widow spiders are bad news...and they are BIG and easily seen. the spider that will kill ya tho is the brown recluse, the tiny spider, so seemingly small and diminutive, and often the bite is not felt by the victim.
thing is...he is not himself. oh maybe a shadow here or there, but his addiction, the drugs, the shatteringly low self esteem, the paranoia, have all CHANGED him. if he were to choose to quit and stay quit starting today and dive into SOME type of recovery program, you would barely recognize him a year from now.
i'm a former crack addict. when we met, my husband was about 3 hrs into a relapse...when he finally shared with me what was going on with him, that honesty thing, I made the singularly stupid idea to use with him. figured I knew what I was getting into as I had done a ton of coke back in the day...figured it would be better to have him home with me instead of out there doing god knows what with gods knows who. (whom?).
well, that plan didn't quite go so well. i'm a bright intelligent female, but I didn't really properly assess what I was up against. and within three months of weekend use, like 12 times...ta da...I was an addict. brilliant. then there were the next 4.5 years of my life being ruled by that crap. and it went from fun to unfun pretty quick. hank had been using for about 20 years and I watched the whole "geeked" thing happen...the windows, noises, god forbid a helicopter flew overhead, inspecting my clothes, the floor, hiding behind the couch, or in the closet, and me almost not caring, cuz there was still dope on the plate. it got way worse before it got better.
oh sure today we are 7 something years clean. and doing fine. but the odds were totally against us. if I had not been using WITH him, I could not have dealt with him. when I was ready to STOP he wasn't and I had to put up boundaries and get ready to bail. i tried for awhile to focus on getting HIM to stop, him him him, and he got hostile and my addiction reared its ugly head. and i had to make a choice....me or him.
i chose me. thankfully, he finally was ready to be done. not that he went willingly! took a few years still for him to get over the notion of maybe getting just a little. there were a couple occasions where somebody brought some powder over and hank didn't say no. but that didn't fire up his cravings. or if it did he didn't tell me.
i can't get those years back..i am now and forever one bad decision away from falling into that morass again. the beast never sleeps. recovery is a hard fought battle. and we are never safe, what we get is a daily reprieve.
i fear my dear, you just don't know what you are up against. everybody knows black widow spiders are bad news...and they are BIG and easily seen. the spider that will kill ya tho is the brown recluse, the tiny spider, so seemingly small and diminutive, and often the bite is not felt by the victim.
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@AnvilheadII - I just started writing a reply to you offline and there's personal detail in there that I don't want up on the main board - not that I'm worried about confidentiality, just that I'm not used to talking to strangers in such intimate detail! I don't think I can deal with posting it on here directly. I was going to PM you but I haven't contributed to the site enough to do that yet. I'll attempt a re-edit and post here but I'm not sure that I'll be able to answer your questions as well as I would like to...
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