How many times before I learn?
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 85
How many times before I learn?
Middle of the night and can't sleep. Relapsed in codie behaviour again today. I started an argument I knew I wouldn't win and it escalated true to pattern and a planned night out was ruined.
I'm tired of getting it wrong. I am brighter than this, why to I play his game. I am getting to meetings I am trying to read and trying to work the programme but I keep sabotaging myself, going back to old patterns.
RA is 90 days now but this sure doesn't feel like recovery for either of us. I keep displaying co-dependent behaviours and he is still very arrogant and quick to blame me and anyone else for all that is wrong in his life.
I can't keep doing this, how do move this situation on. When will I find serenity?
I'm tired of getting it wrong. I am brighter than this, why to I play his game. I am getting to meetings I am trying to read and trying to work the programme but I keep sabotaging myself, going back to old patterns.
RA is 90 days now but this sure doesn't feel like recovery for either of us. I keep displaying co-dependent behaviours and he is still very arrogant and quick to blame me and anyone else for all that is wrong in his life.
I can't keep doing this, how do move this situation on. When will I find serenity?
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 137
Dublin, be gentle with yourself - its only 90 days!
I found myself constantly triggered in the early days of As recovery, and sometimes still do when either of us is feeling ' angsty'. I put it down to 25 years of living with his drinking can't be fixed overnight- on both sides. He is 13 months sober now- I try to get to 3 meetings a week, meet up with my sponsor twice a week, and I still have blips all the time.
How to find serenity? I am still playing hide and seek with my serenity.....It usually goes into hiding when I allow my RA's behaviour to impact on myself - when I accept his recovery must be as difficult to him as mine is to me, when I stop myself falling into the trap of trying to own his feelings, when I detach from his behaviour then serenity returns.
Be gentle with yourself, give yourself space to learn- allow yourself mistakes...,.
I found myself constantly triggered in the early days of As recovery, and sometimes still do when either of us is feeling ' angsty'. I put it down to 25 years of living with his drinking can't be fixed overnight- on both sides. He is 13 months sober now- I try to get to 3 meetings a week, meet up with my sponsor twice a week, and I still have blips all the time.
How to find serenity? I am still playing hide and seek with my serenity.....It usually goes into hiding when I allow my RA's behaviour to impact on myself - when I accept his recovery must be as difficult to him as mine is to me, when I stop myself falling into the trap of trying to own his feelings, when I detach from his behaviour then serenity returns.
Be gentle with yourself, give yourself space to learn- allow yourself mistakes...,.
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 4,719
Originally Posted by Dublin 
RA is 90 days now but this sure doesn't feel like recovery for either of us. I keep displaying co-dependent behaviours and he is still very arrogant and quick to blame me and anyone else for all that is wrong in his life.
It takes time to unlearn bad behaviors, be it addictions or unhealthy mind-sets. Time and practice.
Maybe next time you'll catch yourself a little earlier in the process and stop before it gets too out of hand. Watch for those moments - it means you are learning and changing.
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Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 85
Loopy days - thank you for that. You make so much sense. I like the idea of playing hide and seek with your serenity. I have to accept it IS early days and I need patience.
Tuff girl you are so right about taking time to unlearn bad behaviours I just want to be smarter about this but I have to accept I'm not but that doesn't mean I won't be in the future. Got to put my training wheels on again and give it another go. As a wise man once said 'Ever tried. Ever failed. No mater. Try again. Fail again. Fail better!' The wonderful Samuel Beckett!
Tuff girl you are so right about taking time to unlearn bad behaviours I just want to be smarter about this but I have to accept I'm not but that doesn't mean I won't be in the future. Got to put my training wheels on again and give it another go. As a wise man once said 'Ever tried. Ever failed. No mater. Try again. Fail again. Fail better!' The wonderful Samuel Beckett!
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Posts: 319
I guess I'd say it gets better, even if it never gets perfect. (Progress, not perfection, right?)
In my own life, I really feel like I do a much better job of detaching from arguments and just letting what my spouse has to say wash over me...whether it be angry, sad...even hurtful. She says what she needs to say, and I don't have to react anymore.
But the escalations still happen sometimes. We were on the way to the movies arguing about something the other day and by the time we got there I was so angry I wanted to just turn the car around and drive home. But, somehow, I was able to take a step back, take some deep cleansing breaths, and let it go. It's so great to be able to consciously do that...instead of letting my subconscious run the show all the time.
The day was not ruined, the argument was neither won nor lost, life went on.
In my own life, I really feel like I do a much better job of detaching from arguments and just letting what my spouse has to say wash over me...whether it be angry, sad...even hurtful. She says what she needs to say, and I don't have to react anymore.
But the escalations still happen sometimes. We were on the way to the movies arguing about something the other day and by the time we got there I was so angry I wanted to just turn the car around and drive home. But, somehow, I was able to take a step back, take some deep cleansing breaths, and let it go. It's so great to be able to consciously do that...instead of letting my subconscious run the show all the time.
The day was not ruined, the argument was neither won nor lost, life went on.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 85
That's the piece I'm missing still Matt, the wisdom to leave the argument alone. Sometimes I join in his arguments and sometimes I start them and in each case I know the outcome, I have to learn to stop and walk away from it
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for sharing.
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Posts: 319
For me it has helped to do some therapy and Al-Anon meetings and prayer & meditation.
One of the concepts in Al-Anon is accepting our own powerlessness over virtually anything but our own actions and reactions. What I've been surprised to learn is that I don't even control my own emotions. Anger, fear, sadness, excitement...like a storm, they spring up inside me and take on a life of their own. All I can do at that point is to be aware of what is happening, and watch as my emotions eventually subside. What I can do is to avoid feeding my emotions. The physical emotion of anger lasts for a minute or two, after that I'm reliving and rehashing whatever made me angry and if I let myself, I can carry those feelings for days, weeks, even years.
Before I started to recover, I felt bad a lot. I could feel the same sensation I had when I was an abused kid...a knot in my stomach of anger and fear. Now days, I hardly ever feel bad...and if I do get that knot in my stomach it's a warning sign that I really need to look at what's going on around me and within me.
Those arguments with my spouse don't blow up out of no where. Some times I'm responsible, but sometimes she is. Either way, if it's making me feel bad I've got to look at my part in it. Sometimes that means I owe her an apology, sometimes (even when I'm right) that means I have to step away and stop participating. Because even if I'm right, if I feel bad I'm not winning.
One of the concepts in Al-Anon is accepting our own powerlessness over virtually anything but our own actions and reactions. What I've been surprised to learn is that I don't even control my own emotions. Anger, fear, sadness, excitement...like a storm, they spring up inside me and take on a life of their own. All I can do at that point is to be aware of what is happening, and watch as my emotions eventually subside. What I can do is to avoid feeding my emotions. The physical emotion of anger lasts for a minute or two, after that I'm reliving and rehashing whatever made me angry and if I let myself, I can carry those feelings for days, weeks, even years.
Before I started to recover, I felt bad a lot. I could feel the same sensation I had when I was an abused kid...a knot in my stomach of anger and fear. Now days, I hardly ever feel bad...and if I do get that knot in my stomach it's a warning sign that I really need to look at what's going on around me and within me.
Those arguments with my spouse don't blow up out of no where. Some times I'm responsible, but sometimes she is. Either way, if it's making me feel bad I've got to look at my part in it. Sometimes that means I owe her an apology, sometimes (even when I'm right) that means I have to step away and stop participating. Because even if I'm right, if I feel bad I'm not winning.
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,295
For me, it's been a lesson in thinking before I speak. If I open my mouth right now--what is going to come out? What will be the purpose of what I am about to say? What will it accomplish? Anything? Sabotage to finding our future peace? Is there any point at all for speaking right now? What if I just stand there and really listen? What if I don't defend myself, is it the same as admission of guilt? No.
How to stop arguments--there is the cycle. In psych 101 in high school we called it playing ball. One person hits the ball over into the other side of the court, like tennis. The person on the other side has to decide if they want to play.
If you don't want to play...don't hit the ball back.
If you don't want to argue, stop the madness. If he hits the ball which in this case is accusation, don't react and hit the ball back.
Respond. Later. After some thinking.
There is no emergency to react. No emergency to even respond. The only emergencies are stopping young children from running out in front of cars, just about everything else can wait.
How to stop arguments--there is the cycle. In psych 101 in high school we called it playing ball. One person hits the ball over into the other side of the court, like tennis. The person on the other side has to decide if they want to play.
If you don't want to play...don't hit the ball back.
If you don't want to argue, stop the madness. If he hits the ball which in this case is accusation, don't react and hit the ball back.
Respond. Later. After some thinking.
There is no emergency to react. No emergency to even respond. The only emergencies are stopping young children from running out in front of cars, just about everything else can wait.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 85
Wow I needed to hear all this. I constantly react and defend even when I know the accusations are false and when I know the outcome will be a massive argument. I am stubborn beyond belief. If I can learn to not react and Matt if I could learn to not hold on to and rehash feelings and emotions then I really would have serenity. I sabotage myself on a daily basis. I will get to a meeting tomorrow so extra effort from now to not repeat this useless soul destroying pattern. Thank you all for your words of wisdom.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 16,246
Dear Dublin, believe me, I know how crazy these useless arguments can make you feel. In my case it was when my A's were shifting blame onto me; constant derogatory remarks and criticism. I would defend myself---and then it was off to the races--and it escalated from there.
Then, it was explained to me that they were DELIBERATELY baiting me---shifting the focus to me and my (supposedly) shortcomings--in order to keep the focus away from their behavior. It worked like a charm--I "bit" every time!! Once I was educated about this---I was also told to envision them with a giant "S" on their forehead when they were talking---for SICK--to remember their brain was operating from their sickness--it had nothing to do with me.
It was amazing--I felt like I had m y power back when I stopped responding to their criticicisms and putdowns.
I learned that this is called "QUACKING" in recovery circles---the absurd statem ents. blame-shifting, starting arguments deliberately, etc.....
Have you read the thread called QUACKERS??? If not, you are in for a lot of good laughs--and a bit of education about alcoholic manipulation.
sincerely, dandylion
Then, it was explained to me that they were DELIBERATELY baiting me---shifting the focus to me and my (supposedly) shortcomings--in order to keep the focus away from their behavior. It worked like a charm--I "bit" every time!! Once I was educated about this---I was also told to envision them with a giant "S" on their forehead when they were talking---for SICK--to remember their brain was operating from their sickness--it had nothing to do with me.
It was amazing--I felt like I had m y power back when I stopped responding to their criticicisms and putdowns.
I learned that this is called "QUACKING" in recovery circles---the absurd statem ents. blame-shifting, starting arguments deliberately, etc.....
Have you read the thread called QUACKERS??? If not, you are in for a lot of good laughs--and a bit of education about alcoholic manipulation.
sincerely, dandylion
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Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 267
Originally Posted by Dublin
That's the piece I'm missing still Matt, the wisdom to leave the argument alone. Sometimes I join in his arguments and sometimes I start them and in each case I know the outcome, I have to learn to stop and walk away from it
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for sharing.
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: New England
Posts: 350
Thank you for this thread, Dublin. I do this, too. I am working on the whole not-engaging thing. I celebrate the little victories. Every time I don't bite the hook, it's a victory, no matter how small.
I get very caught up in trying to make my AH see that he's being illogical. Doesn't work! Once in a while, I remember that arguing with a drunk is fundamentally illogical, too.
I get very caught up in trying to make my AH see that he's being illogical. Doesn't work! Once in a while, I remember that arguing with a drunk is fundamentally illogical, too.
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,407
90days is still early in recovery (although we all want recovery to hurry up!). I read your earlier posts, sounded like your own efforts at recovery weren't consistent? Are you focused on you? Are you going to AlAnon? I had to really focus on my meetings and my recovery when my RABF was in his recovery. Stay on my side of the street. The more I committed to my meetings, got a sponsor, and worked my steps...the better things got over all for me.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 85
thank you all for responses all of this is information that I need to hear. Some of it is news and some I have heard before but didn't really listen, so thank you for the new information and for the reminders.
Recovery2 you are right it is when I wander off my side of the street and into his that things go wrong. I am going to alanon meetings, some weeks I get to 3 some weeks 1 and some weeks none. I got to one today and it really helped. i don't have a sponsor yet, that is the next step for me but I really want to select wisely for this so still taking my time getting to know everyone. I am quite outgoing once I get to know people but shy at first and it takes me a while to settle into a group so I'm still getting to know my alanon community here.
I took on board all that I read here and last night and today I didn't join in any argument and did not react to any provocation and after some time my RA asked me to sit down and talk - new departure - I agreed with some ground rules that we were not allowed to shout or interrupt each other. We talked very calmly for the most part and some things got dealt with. It is a small step but I am proud that I stayed calm last night and this morning and that I set and stuck to boundaries today. It is progress. I am going to keep working on myself and try to get to as many meetings as possible and getting a sponsor is on my 'to do' list.
Thank you all again for your support and sharing your experience and knowledge. I feel a lot calmer and stronger today and I am ready to get back on the horse and work again on myself and my co-dependent behaviors. As you said Matt progress not perfection (again something I had heard before but not really taken in!).
Recovery2 you are right it is when I wander off my side of the street and into his that things go wrong. I am going to alanon meetings, some weeks I get to 3 some weeks 1 and some weeks none. I got to one today and it really helped. i don't have a sponsor yet, that is the next step for me but I really want to select wisely for this so still taking my time getting to know everyone. I am quite outgoing once I get to know people but shy at first and it takes me a while to settle into a group so I'm still getting to know my alanon community here.
I took on board all that I read here and last night and today I didn't join in any argument and did not react to any provocation and after some time my RA asked me to sit down and talk - new departure - I agreed with some ground rules that we were not allowed to shout or interrupt each other. We talked very calmly for the most part and some things got dealt with. It is a small step but I am proud that I stayed calm last night and this morning and that I set and stuck to boundaries today. It is progress. I am going to keep working on myself and try to get to as many meetings as possible and getting a sponsor is on my 'to do' list.
Thank you all again for your support and sharing your experience and knowledge. I feel a lot calmer and stronger today and I am ready to get back on the horse and work again on myself and my co-dependent behaviors. As you said Matt progress not perfection (again something I had heard before but not really taken in!).
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